Eternal Security: What do you do with James 2?

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mailmandan

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If I don’t do these things, would that give justification that I’m not saved?
If someone merely "claims" to have faith, yet produces no works at all, then according to James, such a person would have a dead faith. (James 2:14) I would call that an empty profession of faith.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Pauls letters specifically address the body of Christ. James’ letter specifically addresses the twelve tribes of Israel. Throughout scripture, the twelve tribes of Israel is never a reference to the body of Christ, where there is neither Jew or Gentile.
Lol Paul was a member of the tribe of Benjamin infact every apostle was of the tribes of Israel , and every member of the early church in scripture began with members of the twelve tribes ofnisrael 😀

until of course Gentiles we’re included into the kingdom and church later by the same gospel being preached to them as well the one beginning in Jerusalem you know ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But it’s sort of a waste of time you are stuck on the grace books
 

mailmandan

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You can’t answer straight forward huh ?

so I was understanding you before. Where does faith come from in your estimation ? I’m saying this

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s what God said right ?

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so what would faith do with Gods word about something as simple as baptism which Jesus Christ tied to salvation ? Does faith reject it and answer question with question or does faith believe a gods word ?

it should be this reaction this is faith working in action

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers. Praising God, and having favour with all the people.

I think o did understand you before and the wyd the issue with that circular argument of no works no works faith no works

even something as simple as Gods own promise of remission of sins becomes an in necassary work yet faith comes from believing the word of God not rejecting it as in needed and making an argument for some different faitb

And I was actually pointing to the fact that every example in scriptire includong Paul’s conversion was accompanied with baptism for remission of sins not just that example. But I’m seeing your position more now
Do you attend the church of Christ? :unsure:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-39, 41-42, 47‬ ‭KJV‬‬
How are we saved? By grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Do you attend the church of Christ? :unsure:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the one requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism. (Acts 10:47)

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing scripture with scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony* :)

How are we saved? By grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9)

Acts 4:4 - However, many of those who heard the word believed; and the number of the men came to be about five thousand. *What happened to baptism?

Acts 5:14 - And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women. *What happened to baptism?
lol nice one well anyways I appreciate your time and really wasn’t wanting to get back into the e same debate “ works v faith lol I thought this post sort of was leading to the reconciliation

It’s sort of about this isn’t it ?

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your answer to that is faith without works equals salvstion ?

on one hand you say you agree with James yet it doesn’t seem
Like you do honestly until you spin circles and say it doesn’t mean what it says

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

even a lromose from Jesus something as little And simple as baptism has become an in necassary work

how is this omitted ?

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It seems like what we do claiming it’s of faith matters very much but what about salvstion ? Surely what we do is irrelevant because we have “ faith “

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Shouldn’t we believe what the judge had to say about salvstion now so we can repent d be found in the right group there ? But I’ll give you the last word there and appreciate your time we’re all works in progress
 

Pilgrimshope

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So you believe that we are saved through faith + water baptism? Are you referring to Acts 2:38 as your proof text for baptism?
I believe in Jesus Christ and that we’re saved by the path he set before us and died to Make possible. And plucked out verses from Paul don’t change anything he said is what I believe
 

NOV25

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Faith and works and eternal salvation are simple truths for those who have been born of Spirit, for those that are Christian. One who struggles with these doctrines are either babes in Christ or they’re not in Christ.
You’ll know them by their fruit.
 

John146

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Lol comon man we went through this before

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

everything Jesus Christ preached in the flesh after his baptism is for anyone who believes
Not one Christian in Matthew. The church was not birthed until after the resurrection.
 

John146

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If someone merely "claims" to have faith, yet produces no works at all, then according to James, such a person would have a dead faith. (James 2:14) I would call that an empty profession of faith.
How many works justify? What if a man claims to have faith and does good works for an entire year, gets under false teaching, and does nothing the rest of his life?
 

John146

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Lol Paul was a member of the tribe of Benjamin infact every apostle was of the tribes of Israel , and every member of the early church in scripture began with members of the twelve tribes ofnisrael 😀

until of course Gentiles we’re included into the kingdom and church later by the same gospel being preached to them as well the one beginning in Jerusalem you know ?

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But it’s sort of a waste of time you are stuck on the grace books
And Paul counted his past as dung. Once a Jew gets into the body of Christ, he is no longer a Jew. Same for a Gentile.
 

Pilgrimshope

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Not one Christian in Matthew. The church was not birthed until after the resurrection.

there weren’t any disciples of Christ in the book of Matthew ?

the term Christian is what disciples were called later

“And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭11:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’m not sure but It seems there were plenty ty of disciples before his death and after
 

Pilgrimshope

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And Paul counted his past as dung. Once a Jew gets into the body of Christ, he is no longer a Jew. Same for a Gentile.
you are krettt misled and discombobulated but I’ve argued with you last week about all this and moved on to others who are able to share from scripture and want to hear from scripture and discuss those things

but yes agreed anyone whomis baptized into Christ ceases from being a Jew or gentile I agree there was sort of
My point earlier to you but rejecting the one gospel preached foret to the Jews and then to the Gentiles doesn’t put one in Christ is the thing

accepting it and getting baptized into Christ puts one there it actually makes the believer a child of Abraham and heirs to his promise makes us a true Israelite

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m not sure why you keep going backwards to Moses law I’ve shown you several times Jesus preached the gospel not Moses law

The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and I’ve shown you what Paul preached

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but it’s a waste of time you don’t have any ability to hear (yet hopefully ) so
It’s sort of just wasting both of our time it doesn’t matter what is shown to you from scriptire you whip a donut and reject it every time


you should seperate the ot from the gospel and not omit the gospel for the sake of a grace book but that’s just my view your welcome to yours but I’m gonna drop this one again like last week it’s a never ending circle anytime you get involved
 

Pilgrimshope

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Faith and works and eternal salvation are simple truths for those who have been born of Spirit, for those that are Christian. One who struggles with these doctrines are either babes in Christ or they’re not in Christ.
You’ll know them by their fruit.
it’s because of this I think

Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:2-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s really rooted in people refusing tomoresch and hear Gods word in favor of books out together for sale that teach the “ great revelations” based on a few verses that make a world friendly message same thing Peter warned of over 1900 years ago

“But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

it was always about believers sharing the gospel but no one does that migc anymore instead everyone interprets and makes new teachings contrary to the simplicity of the commission that’s saved souls the gospel brings us to faith and the works and also promises come along with it as our faith gets stronger our capacity to ealk
By faith gets stronger but we deny faith when we deny the word
 

John146

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there weren’t any disciples of Christ in the book of Matthew ?
Disciple simply means follower. Yes, they followed Jesus thinking he was the promised Messiah come to restore Israel’s kingdom and rule on the throne of David.

The church is made up of believers who have trusted in the d,b,r for sins after the cross.
 

John146

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you are krettt misled and discombobulated but I’ve argued with you last week about all this and moved on to others who are able to share from scripture and want to hear from scripture and discuss those things

but yes agreed anyone whomis baptized into Christ ceases from being a Jew or gentile I agree there was sort of
My point earlier to you but rejecting the one gospel preached foret to the Jews and then to the Gentiles doesn’t put one in Christ is the thing

accepting it and getting baptized into Christ puts one there it actually makes the believer a child of Abraham and heirs to his promise makes us a true Israelite

“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬


I’m not sure why you keep going backwards to Moses law I’ve shown you several times Jesus preached the gospel not Moses law

The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and I’ve shown you what Paul preached

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

but it’s a waste of time you don’t have any ability to hear (yet hopefully ) so
It’s sort of just wasting both of our time it doesn’t matter what is shown to you from scriptire you whip a donut and reject it every time


you should seperate the ot from the gospel and not omit the gospel for the sake of a grace book but that’s just my view your welcome to yours but I’m gonna drop this one again like last week it’s a never ending circle anytime you get involved
The kingdom of God is righteousness and holiness. Before the cross, no one understood that this would come through Christ’s d,b,r.
 

mailmandan

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lol nice one well anyways I appreciate your time and really wasn’t wanting to get back into the e same debate “ works v faith lol I thought this post sort of was leading to the reconciliation

It’s sort of about this isn’t it ?

“Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:18-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”
I already previously covered this, but here we go again. In regards to James 2:18, we show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. We are saved by grace through faith, made alive together with Christ FIRST and created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You must not put the cart before the horse. The end result is salvation by works.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Once again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified,." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

your answer to that is faith without works equals salvstion?
We are saved through faith apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:5-6) yet authentic faith does not remain alone/apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-20) Simple!

on one hand you say you agree with James yet it doesn’t seem
Like you do honestly until you spin circles and say it doesn’t mean what it says
I agree with James, yet if it does not seem like it to you, then just maybe you have misinterpreted James and teach salvation by works. :(

Let's see if you can digest this:

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-26)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* :)
 

mailmandan

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even a lromose from Jesus something as little And simple as baptism has become an in necassary work
In Matthew 3:13, we read that Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

how is this omitted?
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬
What's good is rewarded and what's bad is burned up. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

It seems like what we do claiming it’s of faith matters very much but what about salvstion? Surely what we do is irrelevant because we have “ faith “
You seem more focused on what YOU do rather than what Jesus has already DONE. You also must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture. Common error made by works-salvationists.

“Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:6-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬
If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scriptures, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Shouldn’t we believe what the judge had to say about salvstion now so we can repent d be found in the right group there ? But I’ll give you the last word there and appreciate your time we’re all works in progress
Genuine Christians/believers are in the right group. "Nominal" Christians/make believers are in the wrong group. There are many people who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone that believe they are genuine Christians but will be surprised at the judgment. (Matthew 7:22-23)
 

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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I already previously covered this, but here we go again. In regards to James 2:18, we show our faith by our works, but we do not establish it. We are saved by grace through faith, made alive together with Christ FIRST and created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10) You must not put the cart before the horse. The end result is salvation by works.

In James 2:19, we see that the demons believe "mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe/have faith in/trust in/reliance in Jesus Christ for salvation. In other words, they do not believe on the Lord Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31) and are not saved. Their trust and reliance is in Satan, as demonstrated by their rebellion in heaven and continuous evil works.

In James 2:20, "faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. Once again, if someone merely says-claims they have faith but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. (James 2:14)

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, "faith made perfect or complete" by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidences for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness. For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. (Matthew 12:34)

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, "acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, "they declared God just.." That is the "sense" in which God was "justified,." He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."

In James 2:26, the comparison of the human spirit and faith converge around their modes of operation. The spirit (Greek pneuma) may also be translated "breath." As a breathless body exhibits no indication of life, so fruitless faith exhibits no indication of life. The source of the life in faith is not works; rather, life in faith is the source of works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

We are saved through faith apart from the merit of works (Romans 4:5-6) yet authentic faith does not remain alone/apart from the presence of works. (James 2:14-20) Simple!

I agree with James, yet if it does not seem like it to you, then just maybe you have misinterpreted James and teach salvation by works. :(

Let's see if you can digest this:

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is substantiated, evidenced by works. (James 2:14-26)

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 4:5-6; 5:1); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-26) *Perfect Harmony* :)
lol Yeah I’ve said several times faith has to come first , but if we don’t do the works faith brings us to is my point.

to be clear again , we need to have faith first and faith can only come from here

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

so again the circle of how I’m putting “ the cart before the horse “ isn’t relevant I’ve said all along gotta have faith first , but I’ve posed this several times and you continually corcle around it what happens if we don’t then do the works Gods word sets before us ??????


you are going in such large circles but it’s a simple question once you hear Gods word and believe , what happens if you refuse to do what he said will save us ? Can faith save if we don’t actually do the things he tells us to do ?
again not saying we don’t have faith first so you can bag that argument
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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In Matthew 3:13, we read that Jesus came from Galilee to John at the Jordan to be baptized by him. 14 And John tried to prevent Him, saying, “I need to be baptized by You, and are You coming to me?” 15 But Jesus answered and said to him, “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” Then he allowed Him. Baptism is a work of righteousness and we are not saved by works of righteousness which we have done.. (Titus 3:5)

What's good is rewarded and what's bad is burned up. 1 Corinthians 3:11 - For no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

You seem more focused on what YOU do rather than what Jesus has already DONE. You also must not confuse DESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture with PRESCRIPTIVE passages of scripture. Common error made by works-salvationists.

If one reads Romans 2:6-11 in isolation from the rest of the book of Romans, one might conclude that Paul was teaching salvation by works. However, as you read and study these passages of scriptures, it's critical to keep in mind that these verses do not describe how one becomes saved, but the way the saved (and unsaved) conduct their lives. These works done are the result of, not the means or basis of receiving salvation.

So patient continuance in well doing, seeking for glory, honor, and immortality; (vs. 7) is not at all set forth as the means of their procuring eternal life, but as a description of those to whom God does render life eternal. *Notice that ALL who receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does good (vs. 10). Good deeds flow from a heart that is saved and evil deeds flow from a heart that is unsaved. Verse 8 - but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness--indignation and wrath. *Notice that ALL who do not receive eternal life are described as such, everyone who does evil (vs. 9).

What those passages convey is that though our deeds are judged by God, it's not the good deeds themselves which are the basis or means by which we obtain salvation, but the type of deeds expose whether our heart was saved, or not. These deeds done out of faith are the fruit, not the root of our salvation. If Paul wanted to teach that we are saved by works, then he would have clearly stated that we are saved through faith and works in Ephesians 2:8,9 and that we are justified by faith and works in Romans 5:1 but that is clearly NOT what Paul said. Also see (Romans 4:5-6; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9 etc..).

Genuine Christians/believers are in the right group. "Nominal" Christians/make believers are in the wrong group. There are many people who trust in works for salvation and not in Christ alone that believe they are genuine Christians but will be surprised at the judgment. (Matthew 7:22-23)
mom focused on what Gods word says for us to do and I’m not willing to spin huge ditches explaining it away is what you are perceiving

faith comes from what Jesus said so when you have faith you are going to come to what you do, faith isn’t what excuses a person from doing what he said will save us , it’s what brings us into doing those things

so yeah you should be concerned with what you do also because like me you have to do this

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Would be foolish to not consider our actions as important the doctrine your speaking sounds like this and seems about as effective