... funny how well loved Spurgeon is ...

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Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#21
I don't figure at all, Christ has figured it all out for me. Christ knows best. Calvin accepted Christ as his savior, so did Sturgeon. That makes them my brothers, but I follow Christ not Calvin or Sturgeon.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#22
John 13:35
by this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

It does not say that we will be known by our theology but by our love.
Yes, but the verse right before that says: "A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another."

Jesus demonstrated His love for us by teaching us the truth. You can't separate the love of Christ from His teaching.

In the churches that were closest in time to the teaching of Christ, there was much acceptance of differences in interpretation as long as they agreed on Christ.
What exactly do you mean by "agreed on Christ?" What things about Him did they have to agree on as a basis for fellowship? And what teachings were okay to dispense with?

We have become long on theology and short on love.
I believe exactly the opposite. We've become long on love and "acceptance" and have completely forgotten sound teaching.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,318
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#23
John 13:35
by this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

It does not say that we will be known by our theology but by our love. In the churches that were closest in time to the teaching of Christ, there was much acceptance of differences in interpretation as long as they agreed on Christ. We have become long on theology and short on love. There is acceptance in love.

Paul would ask us if we were of Luther or Calvin or Sturgeon or Christ.
Paul was very keen o stamp out false doctrines.
 

ResidentAlien

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Apr 21, 2021
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#24

Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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#25
Or Bunyan come to that, the 2 most read preachers and writers since the reformation. And yet both were dyed in the wool Calvinists. Now I have never read Calvin, I decided early on not to, but Spurgeon has been ballast to my vessel for over 40 years. I have read many volumes of his sermons and all his other works.

Yet Calvin is lamblasted ... that is strange. I have serious objections to one or two of his doctrines but they are to me as it were dead flies in the apothecary, other aspects of his theology are truly as ointment poured forth. And Calvinism does seems to have produced a great many sweet christian disciples.
it’s even stranger that so few go to this preacher and believe

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve never understood why we seek out people who supposedly know the gospel , yet they never tell us to go to the teacher sent by God to hear his word
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,062
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New Zealand
#26
Lucy I'm shocked, such ignorance :whistle::giggle:

The Bappos have been with us since the 16th century, you know about the great awakening that took place with the Methos in the 18th century through John Wesley. By the 19th century things had calmed down a little, the church had become very cold and formal and among the Puritans or the Free Grace [Calvinists] crowd nothing was stirring.

Young 15 year old Spurgeon was caught in a snowstorm on his way to chapel and must needs turn aside to a tiny Methodist chapel, the regular preacher was prevented by the same snowstorm so one of the elders, an uneducated man stood forth to preach, now Spurgeon was a college boy, brought up among the Puritans but yet unsaved and a very unhappy youth, he was apalled at the preachers poor diction and vocabulary he could hardly string two sentence together. He took as his message Isaiah "Look unto Me ye ends of the earth and be ye saved"

Suddenly he espied young Spurgeon sitting morosely in his pew and lifted up his hands and cried "young man you look very sad LOOK YE that's all you have to do, Look unto Christ hanging on the cross for YOU if you will only LOOK He will make you very glad this morning"

And Spurgeon did look and was wonderfully saved.

He never went back to among the Methodists but joined the Baptists and was soon holding bible meetings among the rural cottagers and word about the boy preacher got around. His church sent him to be interviewed by the principal of a large bible college but was shown into the wrong room so the interview never took place but as he walked down the country lanes home, dejected and disappointed , suddenly a loud voice boomed from the sky "seekest thou great things for thyself? seek them not"

Pretty soon, still only 17 he was called to pastor a church in London with just a few bods in, within weeks it was packed to the rafters and Spurgeon took London by storm. For the next 40 years Spurgeon preached sermons that won souls and savoured mightily of power and good doctrine. Each word was written down, every sermon printed as penny pulpits and MILLIONS of them dispersed throughout the empire and America. These sermons are gathered into volumes ... folks still get saved through them today.

When he went over to Ireland on a preaching toured the Catholics turned out in droves even against the fulminations of their parish priests. Yet Spurgeon was a Calvinist preacher and never tailored his sermons to suit his audience.

Of course he was hated and envied by many, but the people loved him.

When I was newly saved and engaged in an evangelical work among drunks and drug addicts an officer of the Salvation Army pressed a volume of Spurgeon's "All round ministry" into my hands and made me promise to read at least 20 minutes before putting it down.
More than 40 years later I have still not put Spurgeon down.
Regarding the baptist name given to a church, that may have started in the 1600s, but baptistic beliefs have been around since before catholism.

- independence of the local church
-individual liberty in Christ
- no pedobaptism
-believers baptism
- justification by grace thru faith in Christ
- tithes and lords supper as key ordinances

Are characteristics of churches long before the reformation.

Though they may not have had the baptist name, they had the key beliefs

Have a look at the Battle for Baptist History by John Christian
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,003
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London
christianchat.com
#27
it’s even stranger that so few go to this preacher and believe

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:49-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:35‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I’ve never understood why we seek out people who supposedly know the gospel , yet they never tell us to go to the teacher sent by God to hear his word
God has set within the church the ministries Evangelists Pastors and Teacher for the building up of the Body. This does not mean that we should not study and pray and be taught and led by the Lord.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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christianchat.com
#28
John 13:35
by this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”

It does not say that we will be known by our theology but by our love. In the churches that were closest in time to the teaching of Christ, there was much acceptance of differences in interpretation as long as they agreed on Christ. We have become long on theology and short on love. There is acceptance in love.

Paul would ask us if we were of Luther or Calvin or Sturgeon or Christ.
Love and unity

But how can opposing doctrinal beliefs unite, we can love, we can even unite upon some doctrines but trying to evangelise with someone who believes salvation depends upon law keeping or good deeds or that salvation can be lost is murder.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#29
All the doctrines anyone needs are in the Bible. The reason we have so many conflicting denominations already is because people prefer the commandments of men to the commandments of God.

"For when one says, 'I follow Paul,' and another, 'I follow Apollos,' are you not being merely human?"—1 Corinthians 3:4

"For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them."—Matthew 13:15
I'm with anyone who agrees with Paul ... but not all interpret him the same. God has set the ministries of teaching and evangelism within the Body.

I don't think Paul needs to be interpreted but believed. I don't follow Spurgeon I agree much with his theology ... but revelation has moved on since his day, Spurgeon would not have had much truc with Pentecostalism in his day although I am certain if he had belonged to this generation he would be at the forefront. He displayed many instances of direct leading from the Holy Spirit.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
7,312
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#30
it’s even stranger that so few go to this preacher and believe
I feel certain that the Lord does not want us to be led by any preacher, we are to be led by only scripture and the holy spirit. We are not to follow man but follow Jesus.

Galatians 1:11
"For I certify to you, brothers, that the gospel I preached was not devised by man."

I have found several men who help me with bible study, and I follow them only because they both urge me to not to blindly follow what they believe, but only let them help me by pointing to scripture. I use their vast years of scripture study only. I follow Paul because Paul was an apostle taught by Christ directly in Arabia, and the Lord tells me Paul was an apostle assigned to the gentiles. But even with Paul, I check his teaching with Christ.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,624
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#31
I don't follow Spurgeon I agree much with his theology ... but revelation has moved on since his day, Spurgeon would not have had much truc with Pentecostalism in his day although I am certain if he had belonged to this generation he would be at the forefront. He displayed many instances of direct leading from the Holy Spirit.
Are you saying Pentecostalism is the result of "new revelation?"

Pentecostalism claims that a new outpouring of the Spirit began with Parham; and the gifts of the Spirit were reactivated. However, many before Parham claimed the same thing: the first and second Awakening revivals, the Shakers, the Maria Woodworth-Etter revivals, Frank Sanford and his Shiloh commune. Sanford told stories to Parham about missionaries who had received the gift of tongues in the field. And there are many others.

So, where did it begin? If Pentecostalism marks the point at which the gifts of the Spirit were renewed, what about all the others before that? And why should anyone believe a group that makes claims like this (that is, claims to being the first group that received the new outpouring) that are demonstrably false?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#32
The following image is of a plaque commemorating Parham as the founder of Pentecostalism, from the Flower Pentecostal Heritage Center in Springfield, Missouri. So are all those who came before the Pentecostals lying about receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit?

Plaque.jpg
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,318
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#33
I don't figure at all, Christ has figured it all out for me. Christ knows best. Calvin accepted Christ as his savior, so did Sturgeon. That makes them my brothers, but I follow Christ not Calvin or Sturgeon.

Sturgeon
:unsure:
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
12,886
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#34
I feel certain that the Lord does not want us to be led by any preacher, we are to be led by only scripture and the holy spirit. We are not to follow man but follow Jesus.

Galatians 1:11
"For I certify to you, brothers, that the gospel I preached was not devised by man."

I have found several men who help me with bible study, and I follow them only because they both urge me to not to blindly follow what they believe, but only let them help me by pointing to scripture. I use their vast years of scripture study only. I follow Paul because Paul was an apostle taught by Christ directly in Arabia, and the Lord tells me Paul was an apostle assigned to the gentiles. But even with Paul, I check his teaching with Christ.
yes they were all preaching the same gospel the one Jesus established and then sent into the world. Peter and Paul and John thier message goes together and fits perfectly to give an understanding of Jesus parables and the more hidden things he was saying the apostles are all equal but none equal Christ Thier role was to fulfill this being filled with his spirit

I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:7-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the apostles writings are like guides for helping us understand some of the thkngs jesus said that are hidden and mysterious

like you are seeing the gospel is the doctrine and word of God , and the apostles are witnessing by his spirit of its truth and power and helping others understand what the lord taught them

when we try to seperate Paul , I love him also , but John has revelation Paul doesn’t , just as Paul has revelation Peter and John didn’t have they are witnesses of his revelation and were all preaching the same gospel
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,003
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#35
Are you saying Pentecostalism is the result of "new revelation?"

Pentecostalism claims that a new outpouring of the Spirit began with Parham; and the gifts of the Spirit were reactivated. However, many before Parham claimed the same thing: the first and second Awakening revivals, the Shakers, the Maria Woodworth-Etter revivals, Frank Sanford and his Shiloh commune. Sanford told stories to Parham about missionaries who had received the gift of tongues in the field. And there are many others.

So, where did it begin? If Pentecostalism marks the point at which the gifts of the Spirit were renewed, what about all the others before that? And why should anyone believe a group that makes claims like this (that is, claims to being the first group that received the new outpouring) that are demonstrably false?
People say, I don't, Pentecostalism was around before Asuza St.

Asuza St marks the point probably when Pentecostalism entered into mainstream protestantism.

The gifts of the Holy Spirit have always been practiced in the church, it is only the more remarkable gifts which were considered ceased. There are gifts of knowledge and word of wisdom for example which Spurgeon exemplified, there were prophetic utterances and healing, George Fox the father of the Quakers was known for his miracles.

The manifestation of the Holy Spirit have been brought to the forefront [where they ought always to have been] and the doctrines concerning them defined by the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.

In my mind the unfortunate aspect in all this is that it has been almost entirely among those who hold the Arminian theology rather than the Sovereign free grace brigade.
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
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#37
The manifestation of the Holy Spirit have been brought to the forefront [where they ought always to have been] and the doctrines concerning them defined by the Pentecostal/Charismatic movement.
What about the Bible, what role does it play in defining the doctrines of the gifts of the Spirit?
 

ResidentAlien

Well-known member
Apr 21, 2021
7,624
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#38
Since there's no way to edit my previous post, let me just say it should be disregarded. Rather than a question I'll put it in the form of a statement.

Yes, Pentecostalism has defined quite a lot. But so has the Bible; and I believe the two aren't necessarily in agreement.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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London
christianchat.com
#39
Since there's no way to edit my previous post, let me just say it should be disregarded. Rather than a question I'll put it in the form of a statement.

Yes, Pentecostalism has defined quite a lot. But so has the Bible; and I believe the two aren't necessarily in agreement.
Well of course they are "the just shall live by faith" was always in the scriptures but one day the Holy Spirit illumined it in a special way to Martin Luther. That's how revelation works.
 
Mar 17, 2021
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#40
Or Bunyan come to that, the 2 most read preachers and writers since the reformation. And yet both were dyed in the wool Calvinists. Now I have never read Calvin, I decided early on not to, but Spurgeon has been ballast to my vessel for over 40 years. I have read many volumes of his sermons and all his other works.

Yet Calvin is lamblasted ... that is strange. I have serious objections to one or two of his doctrines but they are to me as it were dead flies in the apothecary, other aspects of his theology are truly as ointment poured forth. And Calvinism does seems to have produced a great many sweet christian disciples.
I have read Calvin's commentaries on John, 1 John, and 1 Corinthians, and have found nothing that actually contradicts Scripture. He examines the available interpretations, says what he rejects, what he can live with, and what he prefers. In terms of Election and Predestination, he examines the relevant Scriptures and gives what he sees in them. He accepts that the way these work is essentially a mystery, and accepts that if the Scripture says that we are elected and predestined before the foundation of the world, we have to accept it in faith and not let them get in the way of giving the invitation to all to receive and believe the Gospel.

It seems that many who are dogmatic about "Calvinism" have come to their own conclusions without giving Calvin himself a comprehensive reading. I have come to the conclusion that a lot of dogma around Calvinism and the opposition to it is based on presumption rather than a fair balance between what God has revealed to us in Scripture and what remains mystery that God has chosen not to reveal to us. A lot of it is trying to second-guess God in areas where He has not made things clear in Scripture. God has not chosen to reveal the inner workings of Election and Predestination. He just says that they just are and we have to take His word for it for now.

The problem is that we have those who are over-curious about the ways of God and require hard and fast answers to everything that God does, even in areas where He has not revealed to us. What we have in Scripture is sufficient for people to believe in Christ and be saved. The Bible is a book about Christ and we should see it in that light. It is not a comprehensive scientific, history, or the nature and character of God.

When Jesus went through the Scriptures with the two disciples at Emmaeus, He didn't delve into the inner workings of God. He showed them, from the Scriptures, all about Himself. They didn't need to know whether they were elected or predestined. All they needed to know was that God's plan of salvation involved no one else but Jesus, and that faith in Him is the only way to eternal life.