God sending People He made and loves to the lake of fire.
- Thread starter Chuckyz2
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Destruction defined
1. the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
2. the action or process of killing or being killed.
Lake of fire defined: Weeping and gnashing of teeth forever and ever.
Jesus said, "If you keep my commands, you will never taste death"
Destruction is not and can not be the lake of fire unless you change the words definitions.
You can imagine it is all you want. It just keeps you from seeing reality.
Verse 13 is speaking about death in this life. Or ones first life. Before the last day.
Thus far only 2 people throughout the entire Bible and from then till have not died.
Enoch. For God took Him, And Elijah. And they were sinless because of God and not free will.
that is the narrow gate and right so because only a few have entered it.
Define a few? Ok. A couple of people.
The wide gate everyone else enters and eventually dies.
Your view means a few go to paradise where billions of others suffer eternal punishment.
Not a very good plan for an almighty God.
It is so simply stated. How you can see what you see in it should be an eye opener.
You were taught that it says what you think it says.
If you look at it closely and understand the simple words used, without influence from Satan or his angels or some crusty evil demon, you would know it is talking about dying. And rightly so....
For the wager of sin is death. And all but 2 have died sinners.
All but 2 need saving.
Destruction defined
1. the action or process of causing so much damage to something that it no longer exists or cannot be repaired.
2. the action or process of killing or being killed.
Lake of fire defined: Weeping and gnashing of teeth forever and ever.
Jesus said, "If you keep my commands, you will never taste death"
Destruction is not and can not be the lake of fire unless you change the words definitions.
You can imagine it is all you want. It just keeps you from seeing reality.
Verse 13 is speaking about death in this life. Or ones first life. Before the last day.
Thus far only 2 people throughout the entire Bible and from then till have not died.
Enoch. For God took Him, And Elijah. And they were sinless because of God and not free will.
that is the narrow gate and right so because only a few have entered it.
Define a few? Ok. A couple of people.
The wide gate everyone else enters and eventually dies.
Your view means a few go to paradise where billions of others suffer eternal punishment.
Not a very good plan for an almighty God.
It is so simply stated. How you can see what you see in it should be an eye opener.
You were taught that it says what you think it says.
If you look at it closely and understand the simple words used, without influence from Satan or his angels or some crusty evil demon, you would know it is talking about dying. And rightly so....
For the wager of sin is death. And all but 2 have died sinners.
All but 2 need saving.
To the title only: people will judge themselves. If you read in the Wordf about those being deluded to the point of believing lies, you will find in the near text they have become this way because they loved evil, they chose evil over good.
Hand and hand with this choice they have chosen not to be with Godn nor to give hIM ALL CREDIT FOR ALL THATIS INCLUDING THEMSELVES.
It may sound strange but people actually choose to be separate from God. If you look around at all the misery , the pain, the suffering and the death on the earth and in this age, you will eventually understand it is caused by these people, maybe demons incarnate, who have chosen evil over good, separation rather than adoration of God.
Hand and hand with this choice they have chosen not to be with Godn nor to give hIM ALL CREDIT FOR ALL THATIS INCLUDING THEMSELVES.
It may sound strange but people actually choose to be separate from God. If you look around at all the misery , the pain, the suffering and the death on the earth and in this age, you will eventually understand it is caused by these people, maybe demons incarnate, who have chosen evil over good, separation rather than adoration of God.
Good day Chuckyz2,
The above scripture is indeed true, as Jesus is the Savior of all men. However, not all men come to Him. An individual must believe in Christ in order to receive the gift of salvation. In presenting this scripture, you are inferring that all men are saved, period. This is where the comparison and cross-referencing of other scriptures in necessary. Regarding this, I will use the same examples as I did in the earlier post:
"Enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad the way leading to destruction, and many are those entering through it. For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it."
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
In the first scripture which I listed, Jesus says that many are entering through the gate that leads to destruction and in comparison, only a few find the narrow gate leading to eternal life. The Lord did not say "maybe some enter in" but many. And the second scripture says that whoever rejects Christ will not see life and God's wrath remains on Him. Therefore, by comparing other scriptures we can come to a right conclusion regarding this or any other Biblical issue.
Another example of this would be the controversy regarding soul-sleep vs. conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. There are scriptures which refer to death as sleeping and we have scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. Since they both can't be right and we have scriptures demonstrating the conscious awareness of the spirit after death, then the term "sleep" for those who have died can only be referring to the body and not the spirit.
Whenever coming across scriptures like the one you provided, we must also keep in mind those other scriptures regarding the same issue. In this case, the only conclusion that we can come to is that, Jesus is indeed the Savior of all men, but not all men come to Him. Therefore, taking all scriptures into consideration "All men" cannot include those who reject Christ, because salvation is conditional upon the individual having faith.
The above scripture is indeed true, as Jesus is the Savior of all men. However, not all men come to Him. An individual must believe in Christ in order to receive the gift of salvation. In presenting this scripture, you are inferring that all men are saved, period. This is where the comparison and cross-referencing of other scriptures in necessary. Regarding this, I will use the same examples as I did in the earlier post:
"Enter through the narrow gate for wide is the gate and broad the way leading to destruction, and many are those entering through it. For small is the gate and narrow the way leading to life, and few are those finding it."
"Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
In the first scripture which I listed, Jesus says that many are entering through the gate that leads to destruction and in comparison, only a few find the narrow gate leading to eternal life. The Lord did not say "maybe some enter in" but many. And the second scripture says that whoever rejects Christ will not see life and God's wrath remains on Him. Therefore, by comparing other scriptures we can come to a right conclusion regarding this or any other Biblical issue.
Another example of this would be the controversy regarding soul-sleep vs. conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. There are scriptures which refer to death as sleeping and we have scriptures that demonstrate the conscious awareness of the spirit after the death of the body. Since they both can't be right and we have scriptures demonstrating the conscious awareness of the spirit after death, then the term "sleep" for those who have died can only be referring to the body and not the spirit.
Whenever coming across scriptures like the one you provided, we must also keep in mind those other scriptures regarding the same issue. In this case, the only conclusion that we can come to is that, Jesus is indeed the Savior of all men, but not all men come to Him. Therefore, taking all scriptures into consideration "All men" cannot include those who reject Christ, because salvation is conditional upon the individual having faith.
-
1
- Show all
Good day Chuckyz2,
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev.20:11-15
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Regarding the scripture you provided, you left off a very important part. Below is the same scripture in its fulness:
"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day."
The One who will "Judge" those who reject Christ, would be God the Father who sent Him.
When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, there will be a judgment of the sheep and goat, which I listed above. And at the end of Christ's thousand year reign, the great white throne judgment will take place. And anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.
So, not only does the last part of the scripture that you provided demonstrate that there will be a judgment, we also have the judgment of the sheep and goats, with the goats going away into eternal punishment.
"Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire. - Rev.20:11-15
"Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’
“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’
“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Regarding the scripture you provided, you left off a very important part. Below is the same scripture in its fulness:
"If anyone hears my words but does not keep them, I do not judge that person. For I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day."
The One who will "Judge" those who reject Christ, would be God the Father who sent Him.
When the Lord returns to the earth to end the age, there will be a judgment of the sheep and goat, which I listed above. And at the end of Christ's thousand year reign, the great white throne judgment will take place. And anyone's name not found written in the book of life will be thrown into the lake of fire.
So, not only does the last part of the scripture that you provided demonstrate that there will be a judgment, we also have the judgment of the sheep and goats, with the goats going away into eternal punishment.
All of John 12, including verse 47 quoted by Chucky above is a fascinating read in context and here provided in the Greek English translation.
Here is the Biblical definition of the word "apoleia" translated as "destruction."
Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The word "apoleia" translated as "destruction" is defined as "complete loss of well being, ruination, to be completely cut off." If you will notice under "HELPS Word-studies" I highlighted and underlined one of the attributes of "apoleia" which is that it "does not imply annihilation," ergo, the individual who is destroyed does not cease to exist.
When studying all of the related scriptures on this subject, Life and death are both states of conscious existence based on ones standing with God after death.
Life = Eternal conscious existence in the joy in the kingdom of God
Death = Eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire
The key word in scripture above being "If you keep my commands" which infers that those who do not keep His commands will taste death.
I see that you are an annihilationist, which is not according to scripture. Regarding those who go through the different gates, the "few" that enter into life are in comparison to "the many" who enter in which leads to destruction, which again is the word "apoleia" which does not imply annihilation. Therefore, "a few" is not referring to a couple of people, but few in comparison to the many who enter the gate that leads to destruction.
Actually, there will be multitudes and multitudes who will enter into eternal life. But in comparison to those who enter into to eternal punishment, they are few. In other words, "many" who enter through the wide gate could be billions and billions, where a few would be millions and millions in comparison.
First of all, I was not taught by anyone. That is an assumption on your part. I have been doing my own studies for over 40 years. My teacher is the word of God and the Holy Spirit. No man has been nor is currently my teacher.
Also, I see from your claim above that you are also one of those who considers the event of "the rich man and Lazarus" as being a parable, otherwise you would understand that this was an actual event which demonstrates that both Lazarus and the rich man died and were buried, but their spirits departed from their bodies and were conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades. According to the context, both men died and yet were conscious and aware, as Abraham and the rich man were having a conversation with the rich man being in torment in the flame. Within the context the real names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets and the real location of Hades is used. Parables don't use real names but symbolism. There were two locations within Hades, one being a place of comfort/paradise which is where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were. And on the other side, which was separated by a great chasm, was the rich man in torment in flame.
Strong's Concordance
apóleia: destruction, loss
Original Word: ἀπώλεια, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apóleia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-o'-li-a)
Short Definition: destruction, ruin, loss
Definition: destruction, ruin, loss, perishing; eternal ruin.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 684 apṓleia (from 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") – destruction, causing someone (something) to be completely severed – cut off (entirely) from what could or should have been. (Note the force of the prefix, apo.) See 622 (apollymi).
684 /apṓleia ("perdition") does not imply "annihilation" (see the meaning of the root-verb, 622 /apóllymi, "cut off") but instead "loss of well-being" rather than being (Vine's Expository Dictionary, 165; cf. Jn 11:50; Ac 5:37; 1 Cor 10:9-10; Jude 11).
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The word "apoleia" translated as "destruction" is defined as "complete loss of well being, ruination, to be completely cut off." If you will notice under "HELPS Word-studies" I highlighted and underlined one of the attributes of "apoleia" which is that it "does not imply annihilation," ergo, the individual who is destroyed does not cease to exist.
When studying all of the related scriptures on this subject, Life and death are both states of conscious existence based on ones standing with God after death.
Life = Eternal conscious existence in the joy in the kingdom of God
Death = Eternal conscious existence in separation from God in the lake of fire
The key word in scripture above being "If you keep my commands" which infers that those who do not keep His commands will taste death.
I see that you are an annihilationist, which is not according to scripture. Regarding those who go through the different gates, the "few" that enter into life are in comparison to "the many" who enter in which leads to destruction, which again is the word "apoleia" which does not imply annihilation. Therefore, "a few" is not referring to a couple of people, but few in comparison to the many who enter the gate that leads to destruction.
Actually, there will be multitudes and multitudes who will enter into eternal life. But in comparison to those who enter into to eternal punishment, they are few. In other words, "many" who enter through the wide gate could be billions and billions, where a few would be millions and millions in comparison.
First of all, I was not taught by anyone. That is an assumption on your part. I have been doing my own studies for over 40 years. My teacher is the word of God and the Holy Spirit. No man has been nor is currently my teacher.
Also, I see from your claim above that you are also one of those who considers the event of "the rich man and Lazarus" as being a parable, otherwise you would understand that this was an actual event which demonstrates that both Lazarus and the rich man died and were buried, but their spirits departed from their bodies and were conscious and aware in Sheol/Hades. According to the context, both men died and yet were conscious and aware, as Abraham and the rich man were having a conversation with the rich man being in torment in the flame. Within the context the real names of Abraham, Lazarus, Moses, the prophets and the real location of Hades is used. Parables don't use real names but symbolism. There were two locations within Hades, one being a place of comfort/paradise which is where Abraham, Lazarus and the rest of the OT saints were. And on the other side, which was separated by a great chasm, was the rich man in torment in flame.
I agree! For their official judgment doesn't take place until after the millennial period. However, once the wicked die, they begin their punishment in Hades, just as the rich man did and still is. After the millennial kingdom the unrighteous dead will be resurrected, with their spirits be released from Hades and they will stand before God at the great white throne judgment where they will be held accountable for every idle word they ever spoke.
No, they are beginning their punishment, but their official judgment trial will take place at the great white throne judgment. Regarding this, consider the following scripture:
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." - John 3:18
Therefore, those who die in their sins are condemned already, where at the time of death their spirit goes immediately into Hades to begin punishment. However, their official judicial judgment will not take place until after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne.
Everyone who comes into the world is condemn already i.e. their already on the road to condemnation. If they never receive Christ, they remain in that state and already condemned. It is at the great white throne where the official judgment will take place. In the mean time, those who died in their sins will begin their punishment in Hades, just as the rich man already began his, as well as those who are pouring into Hades every day and night.
"Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son." - John 3:18
Therefore, those who die in their sins are condemned already, where at the time of death their spirit goes immediately into Hades to begin punishment. However, their official judicial judgment will not take place until after the millennial kingdom at the great white throne.
Everyone who comes into the world is condemn already i.e. their already on the road to condemnation. If they never receive Christ, they remain in that state and already condemned. It is at the great white throne where the official judgment will take place. In the mean time, those who died in their sins will begin their punishment in Hades, just as the rich man already began his, as well as those who are pouring into Hades every day and night.
There is a universe of difference between standing condemned and being punished as the condemned.
Every unbeliever stands condemned. We were thus before we came to repentance and Christ Jesus. However, we were not then punished in that condemnation.
The Bible is clear as to when judgment comes for those who perished in their unbelief.
Why would Christians insist that people inhabit Hell right now? When that is not what is in the scriptures.
What is there to gain by making up our own scripture that says the unbeliever is suffering right now, populating Hell on the clock, as one thread hopes to communicate as truth, in our own imagining? Because that is what it is when God's word states no such thing.
Every unbeliever stands condemned. We were thus before we came to repentance and Christ Jesus. However, we were not then punished in that condemnation.
The Bible is clear as to when judgment comes for those who perished in their unbelief.
Why would Christians insist that people inhabit Hell right now? When that is not what is in the scriptures.
What is there to gain by making up our own scripture that says the unbeliever is suffering right now, populating Hell on the clock, as one thread hopes to communicate as truth, in our own imagining? Because that is what it is when God's word states no such thing.
That's because we were still alive. All of those who reject Christ in their life time remain condemned. If they die in that state they go immediately to begin their punishment in Hades. There is no need to prove this and that because we have the example of the rich man and Lazarus. Both men died and their spirits departed their bodies and were found in Hades. Lazarus was at Abraham's side, both being in the area of comfort. Where the rich man was in the area of Hades in torment in flame. Both areas were separated by a great chasm so that no one from either side could pass over. The rich man is still there and will be resurrected out with the rest of the unrighteous dead throughout all of history where they will have their official judgment. After that, they will be thrown into the lake of fire to continue said punishment.
Christians are not making up their own scriptures. We have the rich man and Lazarus event which gives us this information. The problem is that, many interpret it as a parable and thus do away with the information contained in the context. They label it as a parable because it destroys their positions. For if it is to be taking literally, then it means exactly what it says. Basically, those who label the rich man and Lazarus as a parable are just getting rid of the truth and asking for other proof.
Since everyone who comes into the world is condemned already, if they continue to reject Christ, then when they die their record is sealed, remaining in that condemned state and therefore punishment follows. After the millennial period will be their official judgment and then they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Those who die in their sins and go into Hades, there is no chance that their names might be found in the book of life.
The great white throne is not a judgment to decide whether the individual is guilty or not, but will just be due process. Those finding themselves in Hades are there because they died in their sins and there is not hope for them. The books will be opened to reveal each individuals sins. As Jesus said regarding them, "every idle word that men shall speak, they will give an account thereof on the day of judgment. The church does not take part in the great white throne judgment, as we will have already been judged at the Bema seat of Christ, but not for sins, but to receive reward or loss of reward. Jesus has already been held accountable for the sins of all believers and therefore we will not be judged for them.
Christians are not making up their own scriptures. We have the rich man and Lazarus event which gives us this information. The problem is that, many interpret it as a parable and thus do away with the information contained in the context. They label it as a parable because it destroys their positions. For if it is to be taking literally, then it means exactly what it says. Basically, those who label the rich man and Lazarus as a parable are just getting rid of the truth and asking for other proof.
Since everyone who comes into the world is condemned already, if they continue to reject Christ, then when they die their record is sealed, remaining in that condemned state and therefore punishment follows. After the millennial period will be their official judgment and then they will be thrown into the lake of fire. Those who die in their sins and go into Hades, there is no chance that their names might be found in the book of life.
The great white throne is not a judgment to decide whether the individual is guilty or not, but will just be due process. Those finding themselves in Hades are there because they died in their sins and there is not hope for them. The books will be opened to reveal each individuals sins. As Jesus said regarding them, "every idle word that men shall speak, they will give an account thereof on the day of judgment. The church does not take part in the great white throne judgment, as we will have already been judged at the Bema seat of Christ, but not for sins, but to receive reward or loss of reward. Jesus has already been held accountable for the sins of all believers and therefore we will not be judged for them.
Christians are making up their own scripture when they hurry fire and brimstone punishment where it is not so in the scripture before Revelation.
Hades, the grave, is the abode of the saved and the unbeliever. There's no punishment there.
I've started posting articles of interest so as to help further a discussion and so as to avoid protracted argument over details that are clearly in scripture. And as pertains to that which is not. I hope this helps.
Bible Ask = Doesn’t Christ’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus prove that we immediately go to heaven or hell after death?
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) is often cited as proof of life immediately after death and that ‘good people’ go to heaven and ‘bad people’ go to hell. But there are several reasons why the Bible makes it clear that we should not take this parable literally for it is figurative.
The first reason is the use of the word hell. The Greek word for hell in Luke 16:23 is hadēs which literally translated is “grave,” or “death.” Hadēs is the abode of all men, good and bad, until the Resurrection. Literally, Lazarus would be there also after dying. Jesus said that rewards and punishment are give at His coming and not at death ,“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29; also Luke 14:14; Matthew 16:27).
The Greek word gehenna, which is not used in this parable, is used for the ‘hell’ that people experience punishment and fiery torment. The idea that at death men go to a place where they suffer “torment” is completely foreign to the Bible, which plainly teaches us that “the dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Jesus Himself compared death to sleep (John 11:11, 14). To conclude from this parable alone that Jesus was teaching that at death the wicked are taken to a place of torment and the righteous immediately go to heaven is to make Him here contradict His plain teachings on the state of the dead in other occasions, as well as the teachings of the Bible as a whole. The significance that Jesus used the word hadēs and not gehenna here adds to the fact that He was speaking figuratively.
The second reason is found through the analysis of Luke 16:23-31 in the dialogue between the rich man in “hell” and Abraham in heaven. Can it be that heaven and hell are within speaking distance, and that those in heaven witness the suffering of friends and loved ones in hell without being able to alleviate their torment, while those in hell can observe the bliss of the righteous in heaven? Yet this is precisely what this parable teaches if it is to be taken literally.
There are many who believe this parable to be literal and argue that “Abraham’s bosom” is only a figure of speech and that the saints are not literally all resting in his “bosom.” They also say that the proximity of heaven and hell here pictures is also purely figurative. How can parts of a parable be figurative without the whole being figurative? This is not a defined or consistent principle of interpretation.
The third reason for pointing out the figurative character of this parable is found in Luke 16:24 when the rich man asks Abraham that Lazarus dips his finger in water to relieve the rich man of the heat of the torment. Can a drop of water from a finger alleviate burning heat? Again, this is not realistic and thus figurative.
Obviously, Jesus is relating an imaginative story designed to make a certain and particular truth clear concerning the relationship between this life and the next, how the works of this life determine which life we receive in the end, and does not intend His words to be taken literally. In addition, this parable itself disproves the belief that immortal, disembodied souls, go to heaven or hell for disembodied spirits logically do not have fingers (v. 24), or eyes (v.23), or a tongue (v. 24). Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk (read the parable in Judges 9:8-15.)
The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16, “‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” And to prove this point, a few weeks after narrating this parable Jesus raised from the dead a man named Lazarus, as if in response to the challenge of the Jewish leaders for greater evidence than they had heretofore. But that very miracle led the leaders of the nation to plot harder against Jesus’ life (John 11:47–54).
-
1
- Show all
Christians are making up their own scripture when they hurry fire and brimstone punishment where it is not so in the scripture before Revelation.
Hades, the grave, is the abode of the saved and the unbeliever. There's no punishment there.[/quotes]
Hades/Sheol is not the grave and should never be interpreted as such. The words qeber and Mnemeion, Hebrew and Greek respectively, are always used to refer to the grave, tomb and sepulcher. Sheol and Hades should always be used when referring to the nether regions of where the spirits of the unrighteous dead depart to at the time of death. Both are synonymous defined in scripture as the realm of departed spirits, as can be seen from the following Strong's and Word Help:
Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Short Definition: Hades
Definition: Hades, the unseen world.
HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
I've started posting articles of interest so as to help further a discussion and so as to avoid protracted argument over details that are clearly in scripture. And as pertains to that which is not. I hope this helps.
You are already not taking into consideration the scriptures that describe where believers go at the time of death. Only the spirits of the wicked go into Hades at the time of death to begin their punishment. And you are doing exactly what I said that you would, i.e. interpreting the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and thereby getting rid of the evidence. If you and others would just read it in the plain literal sense, the it would mean what it says.
I'm so sick of people relying on Eccl. 9:5 while ignoring all of the other scriptures that say to the contrary. All you're doing is repeating the same false apologetics which you have heard or read. As far as torment in flame as not being found in scripture, you're just not looking! The proof is all over the place.
2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24 makes it very clear that those who die in Christ, their spirits depart from their bodies and they go immediately to be in the presence of Christ.
You're already confused and that because when the rich man was having a conversation with Abraham, the scripture has them in the same area separated by a chasm. In other words, all parties where down in Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. The scripture never states that Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven. It is erroneously assumed by expositors
Abraham's bosom is not referring to the location, but the actual rendering is that Lazarus was taken to be by Abraham's side which is in Sheol/Hades. And as I told others before, parables do not use real names and location, which is what the context of Abraham and Lazarus does. All you're doing is getting rid of the proof. As I said, if you read it in the plain literal sense, then you will understand its meaning. Jesus gave us a glimpse into what takes place after the time of death, demonstrating that the spirit is conscious and existing after the death of the body and that there is not coming back for those who die without faith, as well as no second chances. The wicked are pouring into Hades every day 24/7 and those are the scriptural facts.
As I said earlier, I can tell that you are just repeating the same false apologetics that I have already encountered many times. If you were in that type torment and relief would be welcomed, even one drop of water. That's what punishment for sin against a Holy, righteous and eternal God requires. Your reasoning sounds just like what the JW's use. Why not try doing your own studies instead of just repeating what you've read or heard?
You will all find out that what is written regarding the rich man and Lazarus was an actual event and not a parable.
Hades, the grave, is the abode of the saved and the unbeliever. There's no punishment there.[/quotes]
Hades/Sheol is not the grave and should never be interpreted as such. The words qeber and Mnemeion, Hebrew and Greek respectively, are always used to refer to the grave, tomb and sepulcher. Sheol and Hades should always be used when referring to the nether regions of where the spirits of the unrighteous dead depart to at the time of death. Both are synonymous defined in scripture as the realm of departed spirits, as can be seen from the following Strong's and Word Help:
Strong's Concordance
hadés: Hades, the abode of departed spirits
Original Word: ᾍδης, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: hadés
Phonetic Spelling: (hah'-dace)
Short Definition: Hades
Definition: Hades, the unseen world.
HELPS Word-studies
86 hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which all the dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
I've started posting articles of interest so as to help further a discussion and so as to avoid protracted argument over details that are clearly in scripture. And as pertains to that which is not. I hope this helps.
You are already not taking into consideration the scriptures that describe where believers go at the time of death. Only the spirits of the wicked go into Hades at the time of death to begin their punishment. And you are doing exactly what I said that you would, i.e. interpreting the rich man and Lazarus as a parable and thereby getting rid of the evidence. If you and others would just read it in the plain literal sense, the it would mean what it says.
I'm so sick of people relying on Eccl. 9:5 while ignoring all of the other scriptures that say to the contrary. All you're doing is repeating the same false apologetics which you have heard or read. As far as torment in flame as not being found in scripture, you're just not looking! The proof is all over the place.
2 Cor.5:6 and Phil.1:22-24 makes it very clear that those who die in Christ, their spirits depart from their bodies and they go immediately to be in the presence of Christ.
You're already confused and that because when the rich man was having a conversation with Abraham, the scripture has them in the same area separated by a chasm. In other words, all parties where down in Sheol/Hades, which is under the earth. The scripture never states that Abraham and Lazarus as being in heaven. It is erroneously assumed by expositors
Abraham's bosom is not referring to the location, but the actual rendering is that Lazarus was taken to be by Abraham's side which is in Sheol/Hades. And as I told others before, parables do not use real names and location, which is what the context of Abraham and Lazarus does. All you're doing is getting rid of the proof. As I said, if you read it in the plain literal sense, then you will understand its meaning. Jesus gave us a glimpse into what takes place after the time of death, demonstrating that the spirit is conscious and existing after the death of the body and that there is not coming back for those who die without faith, as well as no second chances. The wicked are pouring into Hades every day 24/7 and those are the scriptural facts.
As I said earlier, I can tell that you are just repeating the same false apologetics that I have already encountered many times. If you were in that type torment and relief would be welcomed, even one drop of water. That's what punishment for sin against a Holy, righteous and eternal God requires. Your reasoning sounds just like what the JW's use. Why not try doing your own studies instead of just repeating what you've read or heard?
You will all find out that what is written regarding the rich man and Lazarus was an actual event and not a parable.
Christians are making up their own scripture when they hurry fire and brimstone punishment where it is not so in the scripture before Revelation.
Hades, the grave, is the abode of the saved and the unbeliever. There's no punishment there.
I've started posting articles of interest so as to help further a discussion and so as to avoid protracted argument over details that are clearly in scripture. And as pertains to that which is not. I hope this helps.
Bible Ask = Doesn’t Christ’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus prove that we immediately go to heaven or hell after death?
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) is often cited as proof of life immediately after death and that ‘good people’ go to heaven and ‘bad people’ go to hell. But there are several reasons why the Bible makes it clear that we should not take this parable literally for it is figurative.
The first reason is the use of the word hell. The Greek word for hell in Luke 16:23 is hadēs which literally translated is “grave,” or “death.” Hadēs is the abode of all men, good and bad, until the Resurrection. Literally, Lazarus would be there also after dying. Jesus said that rewards and punishment are give at His coming and not at death ,“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29; also Luke 14:14; Matthew 16:27).
The Greek word gehenna, which is not used in this parable, is used for the ‘hell’ that people experience punishment and fiery torment. The idea that at death men go to a place where they suffer “torment” is completely foreign to the Bible, which plainly teaches us that “the dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Jesus Himself compared death to sleep (John 11:11, 14). To conclude from this parable alone that Jesus was teaching that at death the wicked are taken to a place of torment and the righteous immediately go to heaven is to make Him here contradict His plain teachings on the state of the dead in other occasions, as well as the teachings of the Bible as a whole. The significance that Jesus used the word hadēs and not gehenna here adds to the fact that He was speaking figuratively.
The second reason is found through the analysis of Luke 16:23-31 in the dialogue between the rich man in “hell” and Abraham in heaven. Can it be that heaven and hell are within speaking distance, and that those in heaven witness the suffering of friends and loved ones in hell without being able to alleviate their torment, while those in hell can observe the bliss of the righteous in heaven? Yet this is precisely what this parable teaches if it is to be taken literally.
There are many who believe this parable to be literal and argue that “Abraham’s bosom” is only a figure of speech and that the saints are not literally all resting in his “bosom.” They also say that the proximity of heaven and hell here pictures is also purely figurative. How can parts of a parable be figurative without the whole being figurative? This is not a defined or consistent principle of interpretation.
The third reason for pointing out the figurative character of this parable is found in Luke 16:24 when the rich man asks Abraham that Lazarus dips his finger in water to relieve the rich man of the heat of the torment. Can a drop of water from a finger alleviate burning heat? Again, this is not realistic and thus figurative.
Obviously, Jesus is relating an imaginative story designed to make a certain and particular truth clear concerning the relationship between this life and the next, how the works of this life determine which life we receive in the end, and does not intend His words to be taken literally. In addition, this parable itself disproves the belief that immortal, disembodied souls, go to heaven or hell for disembodied spirits logically do not have fingers (v. 24), or eyes (v.23), or a tongue (v. 24). Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk (read the parable in Judges 9:8-15.)
The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16, “‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” And to prove this point, a few weeks after narrating this parable Jesus raised from the dead a man named Lazarus, as if in response to the challenge of the Jewish leaders for greater evidence than they had heretofore. But that very miracle led the leaders of the nation to plot harder against Jesus’ life (John 11:47–54).
Hades, the grave, is the abode of the saved and the unbeliever. There's no punishment there.
I've started posting articles of interest so as to help further a discussion and so as to avoid protracted argument over details that are clearly in scripture. And as pertains to that which is not. I hope this helps.
Bible Ask = Doesn’t Christ’s parable of the rich man and Lazarus prove that we immediately go to heaven or hell after death?
The parable of Lazarus and the rich man (Luke 16:19-31) is often cited as proof of life immediately after death and that ‘good people’ go to heaven and ‘bad people’ go to hell. But there are several reasons why the Bible makes it clear that we should not take this parable literally for it is figurative.
The first reason is the use of the word hell. The Greek word for hell in Luke 16:23 is hadēs which literally translated is “grave,” or “death.” Hadēs is the abode of all men, good and bad, until the Resurrection. Literally, Lazarus would be there also after dying. Jesus said that rewards and punishment are give at His coming and not at death ,“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation” (John 5:28, 29; also Luke 14:14; Matthew 16:27).
The Greek word gehenna, which is not used in this parable, is used for the ‘hell’ that people experience punishment and fiery torment. The idea that at death men go to a place where they suffer “torment” is completely foreign to the Bible, which plainly teaches us that “the dead know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Jesus Himself compared death to sleep (John 11:11, 14). To conclude from this parable alone that Jesus was teaching that at death the wicked are taken to a place of torment and the righteous immediately go to heaven is to make Him here contradict His plain teachings on the state of the dead in other occasions, as well as the teachings of the Bible as a whole. The significance that Jesus used the word hadēs and not gehenna here adds to the fact that He was speaking figuratively.
The second reason is found through the analysis of Luke 16:23-31 in the dialogue between the rich man in “hell” and Abraham in heaven. Can it be that heaven and hell are within speaking distance, and that those in heaven witness the suffering of friends and loved ones in hell without being able to alleviate their torment, while those in hell can observe the bliss of the righteous in heaven? Yet this is precisely what this parable teaches if it is to be taken literally.
There are many who believe this parable to be literal and argue that “Abraham’s bosom” is only a figure of speech and that the saints are not literally all resting in his “bosom.” They also say that the proximity of heaven and hell here pictures is also purely figurative. How can parts of a parable be figurative without the whole being figurative? This is not a defined or consistent principle of interpretation.
The third reason for pointing out the figurative character of this parable is found in Luke 16:24 when the rich man asks Abraham that Lazarus dips his finger in water to relieve the rich man of the heat of the torment. Can a drop of water from a finger alleviate burning heat? Again, this is not realistic and thus figurative.
Obviously, Jesus is relating an imaginative story designed to make a certain and particular truth clear concerning the relationship between this life and the next, how the works of this life determine which life we receive in the end, and does not intend His words to be taken literally. In addition, this parable itself disproves the belief that immortal, disembodied souls, go to heaven or hell for disembodied spirits logically do not have fingers (v. 24), or eyes (v.23), or a tongue (v. 24). Parables cannot be taken literally. If we took parables literally, then we must believe that trees talk (read the parable in Judges 9:8-15.)
The point of the story is found in verse 31 of Luke 16, “‘If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded though one rise from the dead.’” And to prove this point, a few weeks after narrating this parable Jesus raised from the dead a man named Lazarus, as if in response to the challenge of the Jewish leaders for greater evidence than they had heretofore. But that very miracle led the leaders of the nation to plot harder against Jesus’ life (John 11:47–54).
I have also read where the parable of Lazarus and the rich man was an add in to the Bible. it falls in line with how people use to control the church by scaring them with this idea of a burning hell. I do agree there is a hell, but scripture makes it clear it is for Satan [Adversary] and his minions. Peter even speaks of a part called the Abyss where the angels who had sex with women that created nephalems ended up at. and we also know when Yeshua cast out demons, they recognized him and asked not be sent to the abyss.
but as far as people going directly to hell after death, they are going to hell in the term of what is known as the grave and awaiting judgement.
-
1
- Show all
But what if that's not true? What if God's creation as described in the old testament concerning the after life , Gehenna , is true? And it is actually what scholars have written about as pertains to fire and brimstone's introduction into the new testament? That of Greek myth, recalling the NT was written in Greek, that revives Hades, which was not a place but a god of the underworld in Greek afterlife myth. And Tartarus, which was the fire and brimstone underworld where he ruled? And that was introduced into the scriptures in as I recall the 4th century in order to scare potential converts into faith. And keep the converted in their belief for fear of that end awaiting them.