Gods Mercy,Why the Jews are Still Gods Chosen People

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Feb 21, 2012
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Original division of land distribution to Israel:



Division of the land to the children of Israel - the twelve tribes - Ezekiel 48


Does ANYONE see a difference?

The new name for the city
In Ezekiel 48:35 the distance around the city is given as 18,000 cubits. This is the city where all nations will gather to honor the Lord, Jeremiah 3:17-18, Isaiah 60:14. The city’s new name will be: Yahweh-Shammah, "The Lord is There," as shown in the following graphic.
In Zechariah 8:3, Jerusalem will also be called the City of Truth, the mountain of the Lord Almighty, and the Holy Mountain. In order to fully understand the millennial reign of Christ, one must go back to the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel, because all the covenants with Israel must be fulfilled with, and only with Israel. [www.thesecondcomingofchrist.org]
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
30,742
3,670
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Original division of land distribution to Israel:



Division of the land to the children of Israel - the twelve tribes - Ezekiel 48


Does ANYONE see a difference?

The new name for the city
In Ezekiel 48:35 the distance around the city is given as 18,000 cubits. This is the city where all nations will gather to honor the Lord, Jeremiah 3:17-18, Isaiah 60:14. The city’s new name will be: Yahweh-Shammah, "The Lord is There," as shown in the following graphic.
In Zechariah 8:3, Jerusalem will also be called the City of Truth, the mountain of the Lord Almighty, and the Holy Mountain. In order to fully understand the millennial reign of Christ, one must go back to the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel, because all the covenants with Israel must be fulfilled with, and only with Israel. [www.thesecondcomingofchrist.org]
Well ya, since we allegedly replaced Israel, I can't figure out what tribe I would belong to. :p
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
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crossnote said:
I find it interesting that land promises were not given to the Church but given to Israel, it just strengthens the notion that the two have different agendas in Gods scheme of things.
Second Temple Judaism generally understood the promises to Abraham to be an inheritance of the entire world, not just a tract of land in the Middle East. When the promises to Abraham would have been fulfilled, Israel would take possession of and rule the world. This is seen in numerous 2nd Temple and biblical writings.
.
Sirach 44:21 And so the Lord made him a solemn promise that his descendants would be a blessing to the world; that their number would be countless, like the dust of the earth; that they would be honored more than any other people on earth; and that their land would extend from sea to sea, from the Euphrates to the ends of the earth.

Jubilees 19:21 Let thy hands be strong
And let thy heart rejoice in thy son Jacob;
For I have loved him far beyond all my sons.​
He shall be blessed for ever,
And his seed shall fill the whole earth.
4 Ezra 6:55-59: All this have I spoken before thee, O Lord, because thou madest the world for our sakes. As for the other people, which also come of Adam, thou hast said that they are nothing, but be like unto spittle: and hast likened the abundance of them unto a drop that falleth from a vessel. And now, O Lord, behold, these heathen, which have ever been reputed as nothing, have begun to be lords over us, and to devour us. But we thy people, whom thou hast called thy firstborn, thy only begotten, and thy fervent lover, are given into their hands. If the world now be made for our sakes, why do we not possess an inheritance with the world? how long shall this endure?

Dan7:13 I was watching in the night visions, “And with the clouds of the sky
one like a son of man was approaching.
He went up to the Ancient of Days
and was escorted before him.
7:14 To him was given ruling authority, honor, and sovereignty.
All peoples, nations, and language groups were serving him.
His authority is eternal and will not pass away.
His kingdom will not be destroyed.

7:27 Then the kingdom, authority,
and greatness of the kingdoms under all of heaven
will be delivered to the people of the holy ones of the Most High.
His kingdom is an eternal kingdom;
all authorities will serve him and obey him.’

Ps2:7 The king says,“I will announce the Lord’s decree. He said to me
‘You are my son!This very day I have become your father!
2:8 Ask me, and I will give you the nations as your inheritance,[SUP]
[/SUP]
Ps110:1 Here is the Lord’s proclamationto my lord:
“Sit down at my right handuntil I make your enemies your footstool!”
110:2 The Lord extendsyour dominionfrom Zion.
Rule in the midst of your enemies!
110:6 He executes judgmentagainstthe nations;
.​

It's against this background and understanding that Paul says:
.
Rom4:13 For the promise to Abraham or to his descendants that he would inherit the world...
.​

This promise of Israel inheriting and ruling the world is realized in and through the messiah, Jesus who sits at the right hand of God exercising all authority.
.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit himself bears witness to our spirit that we are God’s children. 8:17 And if children, then heirs namely, heirs of God and also fellow heirs with Christ

Rom11:36 For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever!

Col2:9 For in him all the fullness of deity lives in bodily form, 2:10 and you have been filled in him, who is the head over every ruler and authority.

Mark14:62 “I am,” said Jesus, “and you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right handof the Powerand coming with the clouds of heaven.”

Matt28:18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

Luke 10:22 All things have been given to me by my Father.

John5:27 and he has granted the Son authority to execute judgment

John3:35 The Father loves the Son and has placed all things under his authority.
.​
The promises to Abraham have been realized in Jesus. There is no land promise left to fulfill, if for no other reason than Jesus is Lord over all land, which includes the tract of land in the Middle East.

2 Cor 1:20 For every one of God’s promises are “Yes” in him;

This should be pretty good news. Not only has God acted for the salvation of Jew and Gentile alike, and not only does the people of God include Jew and Gentile, but it also entails as a logical consequence that we don't have to support or promote any necessary or divinely appointed violent conflict between Arabs and Jews. Jesus is Lord and he will work it out. We are to spread the good news and promote justice, peace, and righteousness under his Lordship, not promote the idea that it's the divine destiny of Jews and Arabs in the Middle East to destroy each other.
 

JimmieD

Senior Member
Apr 11, 2014
895
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I guess we get to pick and choose! :cool: It is all spiritual anyway . . . .
The restoration of Israel already took place. It's no accident that Jesus chose 12 disciples

Luke22:28 “You are the ones who have remained with me in my trials. 22:29 ThusI grantto you a kingdom, just as my Father granted to me, 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt19:28 Jesussaid to them, “I tell you the truth:In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems Jesus thought the 12 tribes of Israel were restored and represented in the apostles.
 
Feb 21, 2012
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The restoration of Israel already took place. It's no accident that Jesus chose 12 disciples

Luke22:28 “You are the ones who have remained with me in my trials. 22:29 ThusI grantto you a kingdom, just as my Father granted to me, 22:30 that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt19:28 Jesussaid to them, “I tell you the truth:In the age when all things are renewed, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

It seems Jesus thought the 12 tribes of Israel were restored and represented in the apostles.
I just don't agree. The original, natural descendants of the children of Israel are not all gathered together into one place yet. Christ has not gathered the elect yet - Matt. 24:31,32 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory, And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

God scattered the Israelites: Deut. 30:2,3 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, an with all thy soul; That ten the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.

The disciples fled: But all this was done, that the scriptures of the prophets might be fulfilled. Then all the disciples forsook him, and fled. Matt. 26:56

There is a distinction between the twelve tribes and the twelve disciples: Rev. 21:12 And had a wall great and high and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev. 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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And here is an example of something written POST PENTECOST...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Yet you would have us believe that it really means this...

2Ti 3:16 All scripture (written post Pentecost) is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Denying this truth...

Luk 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

Hearkening back to this...

Deu 8:3 And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live.

Makes a sensible and logical discussion impossible.

Where did I say that any thing written Pre Pentecost was NOT INSPIRED by the Holy Spirit? What I asked was where Post Pentecost do the disciples mention one word about an EARTHLY KINGDOM?
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Did all other prophecies of the OT "literally" come to pass? If all other prophecies 'literally' came to pass - then why not the prophecy concerning the land promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob [Israel] - to Israelites (natural descendants and spiritual descendants) wherein Christ will rule?

If we are living in the kingdom NOW - what is the reason and purpose for new heavens and a new earth?

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, an the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless, we according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Wherefore, beloved, seeing that you look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless. 2 Peter 3:10-13

Sarah - I don't disagree with this statement - We have been rescued "spiritually" in that we are children of God through being born of His Spirit BUT I still live here on this earth - don't you? And if I still live here on this earth, in the domain of darkness then I am not totally "rescued" at this point - At this point I have not been transferred to the kingdom of His beloved Son - When this body of death, this body of corruption, puts on incorruption or this mortal shall have put on immortality THEN I am pulled out of the power of darkness and transferred to the kingdom of God. The above verses are stated in the present tense although they have not "literally" occurred, God's way of reassuring us that we have this hope and we are to look forward to his coming for his Church.
Paul does not write that WE WILL be transferred into the Kingdom of God but he plainly says WE HAVE ALREADY BEEN TRANSFERRED INTO the Kingdom of God. It's PAST tense NOT future tense.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Any pagan can "spiritualize "the physical...Plato did and so many Amillennialists were infected with Platonism.

Do you disagree with Paul here?

1 Corinthians 2

[SUP]6 [/SUP]We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. [SUP]7 [/SUP]No, we declare God’s wisdom, a mystery that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. [SUP]8 [/SUP]None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. [SUP]9 [/SUP]However, as it is written:
“What no eye has seen,
what no ear has heard,
and what no human mind has conceived”
[SUP][b][/SUP]
the things God has prepared for those who love him—

[SUP]10 [/SUP]these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]For who knows a person’s thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. [SUP]12 [/SUP]What we have received is not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may understand what God has freely given us. [SUP]13 [/SUP]This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, explaining spiritual realities with Spirit-taught words.
[SUP][c][/SUP] [SUP]14 [/SUP]The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]The person with the Spirit makes judgments about all things, but such a person is not subject to merely human judgments, [SUP]16 [/SUP]for,
“Who has known the mind of the Lord
so as to instruct him?”
[SUP][d][/SUP]

But we have the mind of Christ.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Well ya, since we allegedly replaced Israel, I can't figure out what tribe I would belong to. :p
Please point to the place in scripture where it says we replace Israel? The Bible does NOT teach that. What the Bible plainly teaches are that we are GRAFTED INTO AND WITH BELIEVING ISRAEL,we are JOINT HEIRS WITH THEM,we are of the seed of Abraham etc etc etc. Do you understand what it means to be grafted in? Do you understand what it means to be JOINT HEIRS?
 
Dec 26, 2012
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And to take it further Did Ruth,Rahab and Gentiles that were circumcisied treated as if they were NATURAL BORN and partook of ALL of the blessings of Israel? Did they replace Israel or did they become PART OF ISRAEL?
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Why does God have to explain his actions to us? this makes no sense, he does not. His soverignty is not in question here, What is in question is will he do what he said he will do (in the prophesies) or will he not do them.

Why does God say he will do these things, and then not do them? and then tell us we should just trust him, he did not mean what he said, he was just saying it.

Did Jesus literally fulfill the prophesy of suffering servant? yes

Did he literally come the moment he was prophesied to come? Yes

then why will he not literally fulfill every other prophesy about him, including what he says he will do?
Can you explain How if you believe a 100% literal prophesy that when Peter says that the earth with burn up with fervent heat,and the land is DESTROYED HOW IN THE WORLD CAN the land promise be an ETERNAL LAND PROMISE? That is a CONTRADICTION in terms. If that plot of land is TEMPORARY HOW CAN IT BE ETERNAL?
 
J

jahsoul

Guest
Please point to the place in scripture where it says we replace Israel? The Bible does NOT teach that. What the Bible plainly teaches are that we are GRAFTED INTO AND WITH BELIEVING ISRAEL,we are JOINT HEIRS WITH THEM,we are of the seed of Abraham etc etc etc. Do you understand what it means to be grafted in? Do you understand what it means to be JOINT HEIRS?
From what I've read, it seems as though some equate JOINT HEIRS with REPLACING. The whole grafting thing is just thrown out the window.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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From what I've read, it seems as though some equate JOINT HEIRS with REPLACING. The whole grafting thing is just thrown out the window.

What most don't get is what both replacement theology and dispensation has done is they ripped the New Covenant away from ISRAEL. Different ways but the same result. It has always been God's New Covenant with Israel with the gentiles being able to be JOINT PARTAKERS.
 
Dec 26, 2012
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Original division of land distribution to Israel:



Division of the land to the children of Israel - the twelve tribes - Ezekiel 48


Does ANYONE see a difference?

The new name for the city
In Ezekiel 48:35 the distance around the city is given as 18,000 cubits. This is the city where all nations will gather to honor the Lord, Jeremiah 3:17-18, Isaiah 60:14. The city’s new name will be: Yahweh-Shammah, "The Lord is There," as shown in the following graphic.
In Zechariah 8:3, Jerusalem will also be called the City of Truth, the mountain of the Lord Almighty, and the Holy Mountain. In order to fully understand the millennial reign of Christ, one must go back to the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel, because all the covenants with Israel must be fulfilled with, and only with Israel. [www.thesecondcomingofchrist.org]
If God gives you a promise that is CONDITIONAL and tells YOU to do something and YOU do not do it does that mean that God MUST FULFILL that promise? Every that God says in chapters 40-48 are ONE UNIT and it is CONDITIONED on the premise that they were to DO IT. It was designed to be a TEST OF THEIR FAITHFULNESS to His word. You left out the beginning part of that

Ezekiel 47

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. [SUP]22 [/SUP]You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign Lord.

And by the way did you catch that God tells Israel that the land is an inheritance for BOTH Israel and FOREIGNERS RESIDING AMONG THEM AND HAVE CHILDREN? They are to be allotted an INHERITANCE AMONG THEM.
Where in Ezekiel 40-48 does God tell in there that HE WOULD DO IT FOR THEM IF THEY DID NOT OBEY?
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Can you explain How if you believe a 100% literal prophesy that when Peter says that the earth with burn up with fervent heat,and the land is DESTROYED HOW IN THE WORLD CAN the land promise be an ETERNAL LAND PROMISE? That is a CONTRADICTION in terms. If that plot of land is TEMPORARY HOW CAN IT BE ETERNAL?

lol.. There are two possible interpretations. Both being more plausible and right then God simply saying I will no longer fulfill my promise to a nation. Even though I said I would

1. If the land is not there, there is nothing left. But the promise exists as long as the land is still there.
2. Following this, the new heavens and the new earth have the new land which replaces the old. and it still belongs to them.

the questions is not will it ever disappear. the question is, If it is still there, AND Israel repents as a nation, Will God keep his promise and return them to it.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
From what I've read, it seems as though some equate JOINT HEIRS with REPLACING. The whole grafting thing is just thrown out the window.
Maybe, if this was a salvic thing, and we were talking about heaven. But we are not.

replacing says God will no longer fulfill his promise to a nation (even if they repent) he has replaced that eternal promise with the church (even though the church has not recieved the promise made to them.)
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
What most don't get is what both replacement theology and dispensation has done is they ripped the New Covenant away from ISRAEL. Different ways but the same result. It has always been God's New Covenant with Israel with the gentiles being able to be JOINT PARTAKERS.
No. The new covenant is for all. Male Female, Slave or free, Greek or jew. All have been giving the ability to enjoy that covenant.

Gentiles could enter the old covenant to, and be a blessing in the land, They had to go through ceremonies to partake though, and still could not fully participate. Howver, God did not GIVE a gentile a parcel of land, He gave it to Israel. And we have NEVER been joint partakers. And Never WILL BE. It was never intended to be,

your talking about to different promises here.


Thanks to Jonah, Ninevah has partaken in the new with Isreal. But they never partook of the physical.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
Original division of land distribution to Israel:



Division of the land to the children of Israel - the twelve tribes - Ezekiel 48


Does ANYONE see a difference?

The new name for the city
In Ezekiel 48:35 the distance around the city is given as 18,000 cubits. This is the city where all nations will gather to honor the Lord, Jeremiah 3:17-18, Isaiah 60:14. The city’s new name will be: Yahweh-Shammah, "The Lord is There," as shown in the following graphic.

In Zechariah 8:3, Jerusalem will also be called the City of Truth, the mountain of the Lord Almighty, and the Holy Mountain. In order to fully understand the millennial reign of Christ, one must go back to the Old Testament prophecies concerning Israel, because all the covenants with Israel must be fulfilled with, and only with Israel. [www.thesecondcomingofchrist.org]


Do you understand that when Ezekiel was given the vision and told to tell the children of Israel all those things and that they were to do it,they were STILL IN BABYLON. These are the instructions of what they are to do ONCE they go back to the land.

Ezekiel 43

[SUP]10 [/SUP]“Son of man, describe the temple to the people of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their sins. Let them consider its perfection,
[SUP]11 [/SUP]and if they are ashamed of all they have done, make known to them the design of the temple—its arrangement, its exits and entrances—its whole design and all its regulations[SUP][d][/SUP] and laws. Write these down before them so that they may be faithful to its design and follow all its regulations.

God even tells them to be FAITHFUL to it's design. This is given to them to do once they returned from Babylon. There is no temple at this time,they are not in the land at this time. It given to them BEFORE they returned.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
If God gives you a promise that is CONDITIONAL and tells YOU to do something and YOU do not do it does that mean that God MUST FULFILL that promise? Every that God says in chapters 40-48 are ONE UNIT and it is CONDITIONED on the premise that they were to DO IT. It was designed to be a TEST OF THEIR FAITHFULNESS to His word. You left out the beginning part of that

Ezekiel 47

[SUP]21 [/SUP]“You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. [SUP]22 [/SUP]You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. [SUP]23 [/SUP]In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign Lord.

And by the way did you catch that God tells Israel that the land is an inheritance for BOTH Israel and FOREIGNERS RESIDING AMONG THEM AND HAVE CHILDREN? They are to be allotted an INHERITANCE AMONG THEM.
Where in Ezekiel 40-48 does God tell in there that HE WOULD DO IT FOR THEM IF THEY DID NOT OBEY?

the promise was not conditional. God said I WILL, I GIVE, He did not say, If you do this, I will.

What is conditional is living in th epromised land, Not if it is theres are not. They sinned, so Gentiles own the land (as God promised in lev 26) but if they repent, God also promised to return them.

Why you are so bent against them repenting and being restored if they do. it baffles my mind.