How can one learn?

[Rainrider]

You criticized following men's traditions, and used the term "hashem" in the same sentence 🤣

We're not under Law (Ro 6:14), and Apostle Paul discouraged observing of these days (Gal 4:10). Yes, he became as a Jew, as those under Law, for their salvation, not his own (1 Co 9). Torah contains many concessions (eg, "any cause divorce" Mt 19)--some Jesus even denounces as "of the evil one" if practiced now ("vows" in Mt 5). Gentile believers who walk after the Spirit are already qualified as "doers of the Law" (Ro 2:6-16, 26, 27), so they don't need anyone's "help" to be "more righteous" by the Law--in fact, that is a false Gospel (Gal 1:6, 3:1-3) that leads people away from Christ (Gal 5:4). Just sharing for others' sake.

Ok so are you now willing to test that against scripture? After all you are the one that brought the Law into this, However it seems that when a person thinks they know something they pass it of as fact.
Keep in mind I will ask you the hard questions. So be ready.

 

[Rainrider]

I believe a major part of it is represented in this saying:

"Most people don't really want the Truth. They just want constant reassurance that what they believe is the Truth." (Author Unknown)

I know thats true many. However it does bring up a question. One that I hunted an answer to for years. Does it not become clear when one looks at all the different teachings coming from the same written Word, that something is wrong?

 

[Cameron143]

Ok so are you now willing to test that against scripture? After all you are the one that brought the Law into this, However it seems that when a person thinks they know something they pass it of as fact.
Keep in mind I will ask you the hard questions. So be ready.

The questions are the easy part. It's the intense lights, sleep deprivation, and water boarding that I hope he can withstand.

 

[Rainrider]

Meh, this is a public forum full of Christians from diverse walks of life who like to debate their ideas.
If you need a teacher find a pastor.
I like testing my understanding via debate with other Christians who see things a bit different.

Ok if that is true, lets get to it. Keep in mind that I do ask things for a reason, and it would be great if we could follow a simple, constructive, and orderly debate. After all, if one changes the topic, or runs away, it becomes clear they have no answers. Name calling, sad attempts at belittlement, and no answer at all is much like saying your wrong with out saying it.

 

[romans113336]

Ok so are you now willing to test that against scripture? After all you are the one that brought the Law into this, However it seems that when a person thinks they know something they pass it of as fact.
Keep in mind I will ask you the hard questions. So be ready.

1. It was obvious that this issue was the issue you were dealing with.
2. Everything I've said has been from Scripture.
3. I've already faced most of the hard questions. There is most likely not anything you could ask that I haven't already had to deal with.

 

[Rainrider]

Your "True Word" is simply the doctrine of your own making. It's no different than the doctrines of others that have been developed over years, decades, centuries and/or millennia. Doctrines are simply a summation/explanation of what The True Word says according to them.

And yet when faced with opposing views, the truth must be a bit different than both sides hold. Their is only one truth correct? I know that I don't know everything, yet it seems that unless one concedes to the others point of view, with out question, they must be wrong. The Word also tells us it is not open to personal interpretation. So would we not be better off to seek the only truth there is, the one that comes not mans mind, but rather from the Word it's self?

 

[hornetguy]

Wait.... let's sell tickets.... there's going to be a fight!! Everybody look out!

 

[hornetguy]

Ready for the hard questions? I get to go first....

Who put the ram in the ram-a-lam-a-ding-dong?

 

[NightTwister]

The Word also tells us it is not open to personal interpretation.

Yet it seems that's exactly what you are doing.

 

[Rainrider]

There are many who do strive to present Bible truth over church doctrines or traditions. There are also a few who try to promote false teachings endlessly. And then there are the trolls.

So what you do is hold on to the "wheat" and discard the "chaff". Therefore kindly give us an example of which man -made doctrine is being promoted by the majority of posters.

A reminder to all -- God will hold us accountable for every word we have written. So we need to be very cautious to avoid misrepresenting what God has said. And ignorance is no excuse.

Being as the Law was already brought up, lets look at that. The Torah is after all foundation on which the whole of the Wrod is built.
As we are using the Law here, lets look at a passage that has been used to remove it by many. Just so noone trys to use translation as an argument, lets all use the KJV.
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
I will also ask that we stay with just the above passages until we find the answer to this simple question. If we look at this as a whole, how can it be that the Law has been removed? Keep in mind we only looking at the given, if it sound to say Yesuah has removed the law, and the above are offten used to try and make that point, then it should be clear. However if this passage doesn't back that thinking, then any passage used to show the law has been removed, must be understood as well. After all, there can be no contrudictions in any part of the Word, it must up hold the whole of scripture, or our understanding is wrong.

 

[Rainrider]

It's a safe bet, based on his usage of "Hashem", etc, that he believes Christians are to serve by Torah--for that reason, I addressed it.

Serve by Torah? If you mean be saved by? As so many try to pass off as what I say, even though it isn't even close, then you are wrong. Even Abraham was saved by the grace of HaShem. Oh thats right you don't like that word, so lets use Yahovah. The name given to us Yahovah Him Self. The reason I don't use the word god, is that one may use that to depict Ra, or other god worshiped through out history.

 

[romans113336]

Serve by Torah? If you mean be saved by? As so many try to pass off as what I say, even though it isn't even close, then you are wrong. Even Abraham was saved by the grace of HaShem. Oh thats right you don't like that word, so lets use Yahovah. The name given to us Yahovah Him Self. The reason I don't use the word god, is that one may use that to depict Ra, or other god worshiped through out history.

1. I mean it seems you think Christians are to serve by Torah, right?
2. I'm not interested in a sacred namism convo at the moment--one topic at a time.

 

[Rainrider]

That's another unwarranted assumption. Use of the term "HaShem" could suggest that he uses a translation that preserves the Hebrew terms for God (over generic English terms), or perhaps that he respects those who prefer not to use the divine Name (lest they misuse it).

I thank you for your understanding. As you have made clear I do wish to preserve His name. Not as a way of protecting anyone's sensibility's, if we try doing that it would take 4 pages to make sure we had everyone covered. Rather I use haShem as it does remove any misuse of the 72 Titles, not names titles used by the chosen people. Also I do so out of respect for the Jewish people I do study with. Even though they don't the use of what is called the N.T. they do show respect for any that use it.
One more thing on that if I may. 2Tim. 2:14 is clear that to argue over a word is pointless, and can lead to ruin. So when I see a person try to use a word, title, or phares as a means of showing how wrong teaching may be, they simply show 1 or 2 things. 1- They have no valid point to make.
2- They don't follow the truth as found in scripture.

 

[Rainrider]

I will often walk an extra mile with someone when i think they are open to correction.. But when they are more focused on preaching and ""correcting"" others and when they ignore or run from Biblical quotes, and will not respond.. Well then i move on.. They can have the last post and feel that they have ""Won"" the ""debate"" and they can proceed down their path of deception and God can deal with them on the Day of judgement.. I am focused on seeking actual genuine seekers who are open and will engage with all the points put forward.. I cannot waste my time with dogmatic cultists locked into being preaching evangelists out there to fix everyone else and ignore valid scriptural objections to their View of God and His will..

Pride really is the worst attribute a human being can have.. Pride blinds people, Pride turns people into obnoxious bullies.. When you run into one you will soon know it and engaging them is like banging your head against a brick wall.. Pointless and painful..

Then you should have no problem with this. After all, as I said, I am seek the pure unadulterated truth. As for having the last word, I don't care who has that. I know that not one person, including my self, can say, "I have all the answers" and be speaking the truth.

 

[Rainrider]

Yet it seems that's exactly what you are doing.

Now do you know that, when you have yet to enter into a debate? Unless you have read other threads I have opened on here, and seen that I am willing to place The Word out there for all to see, and hold my-self and others to what it truly has to say. As well as correct the misunderstanding I see in their teachings. However that is not personal interpretation.

 

[Rainrider]

1. I mean it seems you think Christians are to serve by Torah, right?
2. I'm not interested in a sacred namism convo at the moment--one topic at a time.

Thank you, staying on topic, at lest as I have seen on here, isn't something some people like to do.
As for me thinking anyone is saved by Torah, not even. As I said above, even Abraham was saved by the grace of Yahovah. However at the same time, I will say we will be judged by the same Torah. Not if we keep it point by point, in action, and deed. Rather by what was in ones heart at the time said action took place.
Let me try to make that a little more clear. Sorry being dyslexic seems to make some think I am just stupid, and can't make a clear point.
When Abarm lied about Sahar being his wife, was it a sin? In our eyes many would say it was, yet have we looked at what yahovah may think? After all he lied due to his thinking he would be killed. Saving a life at times may take on forms we see as sin, yet the heart was in the right place. After all human life is seen as an act of righteousness is it not?

 

[romans113336]

Thank you, staying on topic, at lest as I have seen on here, isn't something some people like to do.
As for me thinking anyone is saved by Torah, not even. As I said above, even Abraham was saved by the grace of Yahovah. However at the same time, I will say we will be judged by the same Torah. Not if we keep it point by point, in action, and deed. Rather by what was in ones heart at the time said action took place.
Let me try to make that a little more clear. Sorry being dyslexic seems to make some think I am just stupid, and can't make a clear point.
When Abarm lied about Sahar being his wife, was it a sin? In our eyes many would say it was, yet have we looked at what yahovah may think? After all he lied due to his thinking he would be killed. Saving a life at times may take on forms we see as sin, yet the heart was in the right place. After all human life is seen as an act of righteousness is it not?

1. "Serve by Torah" means "Serve God, today, by means of Torah".
2. There is no command "do not lie", and Rahab was justified by lying for God's sake, so, lying, itself, is not a sin (in fact, Paul lied all of the time, but in a good way); however, I am not a position to know if Abraham sinned by lying (though it did have seemingly undesirable results), and he is justified and perfected today, so I don't think we need to speculate. "The hidden things belong to the LORD."

 

[Rainrider]

1. I mean it seems you think Christians are to serve by Torah, right?
2. I'm not interested in a sacred namism convo at the moment--one topic at a time.

Ok have reread your post, I think there may be a misunderstand on my part. So I have this wrong, please set me right. You are saying I think a follower must serve Yahovah by following the letter of the law, is that right?
If so, do you think I am saying run out give a burnt offering or your not saved? The reason I am asking before I get to the heart of this, is we need to have a clear understanding of what the other thinks. When we assume we know something, it more than likely will end up being wrong. So please indulge me so we are clear.

 

[romans113336]

Ok have reread your post, I think there may be a misunderstand on my part. So I have this wrong, please set me right. You are saying I think a follower must serve Yahovah by following the letter of the law, is that right?
If so, do you think I am saying run out give a burnt offering or your not saved? The reason I am asking before I get to the heart of this, is we need to have a clear understanding of what the other thinks. When we assume we know something, it more than likely will end up being wrong. So please indulge me so we are clear.

I mean, "It says here, 'have no other gods...', etc, and Torah defines good and evil, and Jesus followed the Law, and said He didn't come to do away with the Law, but to fulfill It, so why wouldn't I use the Torah as a guide to how I live in righteousness before God?"

 

[Karlon]

I came so close to posting something that I may have regretted later down the road. The following is a revised version of that post.
I came to this forum seeking answers. I found out so much about today's religion that explains a lot.
First I found that it seems we have a following of church doctrine over the True Word. As has been made clear in almost every thread I opened. As if your church doctrine holds more truth.
Second, it seems that being a true follower of the True Word, must be shunned at all cost.
The True Word is clear on this, and the words made me ask. Do I truly know? Or am I following what tickles the ear? 2Tim. 4:3-4
Not an exact quote mind you. However it does convey the same idea, and understanding.
As not many people on here has the spirit of worrier as the Word is clear we are called to be, or has the fortitude to even try, I feel for you all. You will be in my prayers in hopes that HaShem, or Yahovah will find a way to lead you to truth. His Truth.
Yeshua when he called out the Pharisees may well have been speaking to religious leaders of today. Again not an exact quote. What he said not an easy thing to swallow.
He called the sons of Satan, hypocrites, teaching man's doctrine as if it was HaShems own. Mat.15:7-9
What so many on here wish to do is push away any that see things in a different light. Wishing to persent themselves as knowing more than they really do. Yet when pressed on a topic, they say they know so well, can't or won't even try to make the other see how they are wrong. It's kind of like telling some one they were speeding, when they were doing 35 in a 40mile an hour zone. You say it, yet when asked your only reply is, Because I said so. Ok not in those words, yet by not engaging on a topic you brought forth, you may as well say it that way.
So now I ask you, if you wish to be the teacher you are in your own mind, why hide from it?
Rather than turn to name calling, belittlement, or be dismissive, why not engage? It gives you the chance to teach, and learn. Yet on here it as though the one that stands a lone prevails simply by asking how your teaching is in context with the Whole of the Word. As for myself, I welcome any challenge to my understanding. As it opens the door to seeing how I may be wrong. That in turns makes me a better teacher, and student.
What it doesn't do is show how right I am. You see once we take on the thinking of ME, MY CHURCH, and so on, we leave the True Word behind in favor of my thoughts, my church, and so on.
As true followers, we should have a hunger to learn, and a thirst for truth. Though for many the quest for understanding stops at the door of their church. They don't study the word, and many don't read it at all. Oh they have it with them, and may even open it when the pastor gives a passage. Then they just blindly follow what ever is told to them.
Once more, in closing, I came here to learn more than I think I know. I came to seek truth. Something that is not forthcoming in a place that one would think it should be. If one follows what the Word truly says, they are called names, belittled, and so on. Yet nothing of substance is ever offered up.
I have seen people say they know the Word, and have mesmerized most of the Bible, or N.T. That's all good, if you have a true understanding of it. Yet is made pointless if you know it, and don't follow it. So will someone please explain to me, why do say you hold more understanding, yet are so unwilling to debate most topics, when you see something wrong with a teaching or understanding?

some people think the subject at hand isn't worth it because they know it so well. in other words, a waste of time. it's similar to scientists: they don't want to talk to anyone unless the person is an éclat. others, for no reason, just don't want to respond. still others don't want to use their time up. lastly, as you mentioned, people talk big but know little.