I have a question..

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ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
3,507
926
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#21
that's false.
the body is resurrected, else Christ Himself wasn't resurrected.

God made our bodies from dust, and can certainly put them together again.
The saved dead will receive a new body not their old body at the resurrection.

The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected saints that came with Him. The dead saints aren't brought up from the Earth because they are in heaven and Christ brings them with him! The Resurrection occurs in heaven not the Earth.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.


So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
3,507
926
113
#22
Well..

This current flesh and blood cannot inherit eternity with God.. We shall be resurrected in bodies but that will be changed glorified bodies.. Uncomfortable bodies.. Perfect bodies.. They will not be our old bodies reformed..
This is true for the living at the second coming. Their old living bodies will be changed to immortal bodies but this is not the same for those who are dead. See the above post.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
32,043
10,842
113
#23
The saved dead will receive a new body not their old body at the resurrection.

The living are raptured up to be together with Christ and the resurrected saints that came with Him. The dead saints aren't brought up from the Earth because they are in heaven and Christ brings them with him! The Resurrection occurs in heaven not the Earth.

2Co 5:1 For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2Co 5:2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

The new body is in heaven! Here Paul uses an analogy of a building, house and tabernacle to represent a physical body. One of these is an "earthly house" meaning the mortal flesh body we are born into and then a heavenly house which is in heaven that represents the new immortal body. This speaks of when a saved humans body dies (dissolved) that there is another body in heaven waiting for them and the time of Resurrection. There is nothing in the passage about the person's spirit returning to their dissolved/dead body and it being brought back to life. Paul speaks of a different body that already exists in heaven.


2Co 5:3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
2Co 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

Paul writes that he desires to be clothed with the house from Heaven and says it is eternal in Heaven. That's the resurrected body and it is from heaven not from the Earth nor from an Earthly grave.


1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

The dead saints that resurrect are not brought to Jesus in a rapture but are brought with Jesus before the rapture even begins. That's a very important thing to recognize. Only those living saints are raptured and brought to Jesus and those he brought with him from heaven.

Jud 1:14 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Jud 1:15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.

Jesus comes WITH his resurrected saints and then the living saints are raptured up to meet them.

Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The saints and angels make up the heavenly army that comes from heaven.

Jesus does NOT come alone, and does NOT rapture up the resurrected saints, and then has a second rapture of the living saints. There is only ONE rapture and it is only for those that hadn't died!



1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
1Pe 1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

Again, something awaits us in heaven. Is it not the new glorified body given in a heavenly resurrection?


If scripture interprets scripture then I submit:

Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Though Jesus was a carpenter's son, I do not believe he is literally speaking of building a house in heaven for us but this being a reference to what 2 Corinthians 5:1 touches upon, a new body in heaven.

1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.


So, when it's time for second coming all the dead saints in heaven who are bodiless spirits will resurrect physically in heaven into the immortal body that was in heaven, then Christ will descend and the resurrected saints will follow Him, and when they reach the clouds above the Earth the living saints will be changed into immortal beings, then will be "caught up" in the Rapture to meet Christ and the heavenly saints and Christ will descend to his Earthly destination and all the will follow Him.
perhaps it is merely semantic, but the soul that has life does not cease to live.
if it persists & is given a body created wholly new, it isn't "resurrected" but "reincarnated"
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
3,507
926
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#24
perhaps it is merely semantic, but the soul that has life does not cease to live.
if it persists & is given a body created wholly new, it isn't "resurrected" but "reincarnated"
Scripture uses resurrection from a word that means to stand up. A bodiless soul cannot stand up unless it has a body. This is simply a different kind of resurrection.

The word also includes a resurrection as being figurative, and sometimes even a moral recovery as a form of resurrection so the word has more of a fuller and wider meaning than how most English speakers view it. ie: a dead body coming back to life. Many resurrections are a dead body coming back to life but some are different.
 

Bevc00

New member
Dec 31, 2020
3
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#25

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
32,043
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#28
1Co 15:36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
1Co 15:37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:

A mortal body is sown but a different body is what shall be received.
what sprouts up comes from what is sown. ;)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
32,043
10,842
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#29
Scripture uses resurrection from a word that means to stand up. A bodiless soul cannot stand up unless it has a body. This is simply a different kind of resurrection.

The word also includes a resurrection as being figurative, and sometimes even a moral recovery as a form of resurrection so the word has more of a fuller and wider meaning than how most English speakers view it. ie: a dead body coming back to life. Many resurrections are a dead body coming back to life but some are different.
implicit in every instance tho, is that the very thing that is raised is the thing that was first laid down. wheat sprouts up from a wheat grain; wheat isn't given its mature form in some way completely disconnected from its seed, but the seed, the seed itself, is quickened and changed.

if you're arguing that our souls simply step into a brand-new body that has no connection whatsoever to the body we inhabited before, then you're describing 'reincarnation'

Jesus' tomb was empty. it is exactly the body that He died in, that He also rose in: and He is the pattern for what He will accomplish also in us. He didn't create a whole new body with zero relationship to His 'original body' and move His soul to inhabit it, discarding the first. neither when He healed, did He transport souls from a leprous body into a newly formed one, leaving the old on the side of the highway to rot: but that very hand that was withered, and that very eye that was blind, He made whole, and made able to see, transforming not replacing it

we will be changed, "the dead will be raised incorruptible" -- that's materially different from what you're describing ((if i'm understanding you right)) -- i don't grow a garden by throwing all my seeds in a waste bin out front and waiting for vegetables to spontaneously appear out of the dust out back. i put my seeds in the earth, and out of those very seeds, a new plant grows.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
32,043
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#30
This is true for the living at the second coming. Their old living bodies will be changed to immortal bodies but this is not the same for those who are dead. See the above post.
the word in Jude 14 is "holy" (('holy ones' is implied by the grammar & context)) and does not necessarily mean humans. while yes it is sometimes put in English as 'saints' by interpretation of the context in which it is used, in fact the vast majority of usage in the NT it's clearly not referring to people or even animate beings. that He comes with His angels to execute judgement on the ungodly is arguably a better understanding - compare Matthew 16:27 & 25:31 where He says explicitly that He will return with a host of angels when He comes in His glory.

ἁγίαις Strong's #40

IMO KJV is wrong in this verse. 'saints' is incorrect, being put by projected misinterpretation, not translation. 'holy ones' is accurate, being pure translation without eisegetical bias.
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
6,701
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#31
How? Because that is what Scripture explicitly and unequivocally says.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
so also death was passed on to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12

Do you really not know this?
Man in this scripture can refer to mankind.. not the specific gender male..
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,613
2,079
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#32
that's false.
the body is resurrected, else Christ Himself wasn't resurrected.


God made our bodies from dust, and can certainly put them together again.
Many Christian martyrs have been burned at the stake. God is a God of justice, God would not deny them eternal life because their body was burned.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
32,043
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#33
Man in this scripture can refer to mankind.. not the specific gender male..
while "to all men" is referring to mankind in Romans 5:12, "through one man" is definitely one singular, individual, specific man, Adam. the next few verses, the same context, explicitly say so.

verse 14 in particular identifies him as the 'causative agent' in verse 12, also pointing out that there are those who did not sin 'after the manner of Adam' yet still were under death, as all mankind ubiquitously was, and poignantly calls him a type/shadow of Christ. Paul's whole premise in vv. 12-19 is that just as through Adam ((specifically)) sin & death reigned over all mankind, also through Christ righteousness and life are given to many, the 'many' here being those who believe, and in so doing, receive Him.


it really is a powerful and deep point that even though Woman ((her name wasn't Eve yet)) was first in transgression among mankind, it was Adam's sin that brought death on us all. we were all in Adam's loins and we all inherit from him -- and Adam faced a choice that day when his wife came to him infected with death. he could join her or abandon her -- if he had not joined her in sin, he would have remained without sin. would God have created a new wife for him? as it is he chose transgression, and did so without being deceived, knowing fully what he was doing and that the consequence was death.

i believe he came to this choice by two major deciding factors:
(1) he loved his wife, to the point he would '
leave his Father and cling to her' as it is written.
(2) he had faith that God could redeem them - but if he left her in her death alone, it risked that she would not be redeemed, but condemned. by joining her God's hand was in a way *forced* to either redeem them both or forsake them both, and in either outcome they would share the same fate.


God says Adam 'listened to the voice of his wife' -- and we know this isn't talking about her trying to trick him or lie to him, because he was not deceived. what she said to him isn't recorded for us, but from piecing together the events we do know, i think she must have said something to the effect of 'save me' or 'don't leave me alone' or 'help me'
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
38,827
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#34
Man in this scripture can refer to mankind.. not the specific gender male..
One man. ONE man. One man. Jeepers, Adstar.

Just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people,...

That "one man" refers to Adam, of Adam and Eve, and none other, not mankind in general.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,979
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#35
Is there anywhere in the Bible that says if you’re cremated you won’t go to heaven?
No, the Bible does not say that. By the same token those who are in Christ will not be cremated, since they are to be buried in graves. Cremation is a pagan custom, and it remains pagan even when practiced by Westerners. There is no such thing as "ashes to ashes" in the Bible. It is only"dust to dust".
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
3,507
926
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#36
No, the Bible does not say that. By the same token those who are in Christ will not be cremated, since they are to be buried in graves. Cremation is a pagan custom, and it remains pagan even when practiced by Westerners. There is no such thing as "ashes to ashes" in the Bible. It is only"dust to dust".
Gen_18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
 
T

TheWaytoGo

Guest
#37
I totally disagree.. Woman inherited the sin nature and pass it on just as men do.. And how can one have the position that Sin entered the world through Adam when Eve was the first to sin?
Adam was made in the image of God. God gave Adam rulership over the earth and everything in it. The woman, Eve, being created from the man, become one flesh with him, so yes, she carries the same sin nature.

But, God did not entrust the woman with rulership over the earth. When Adam listened to his wife and ate of the fruit, he lost possession of the earth, and the deed transferred to the one who deceived him - Satan.

When Satan tempted Jesus in the desert, he offered him the earth if He would bow down and worship him (Matt 4:8-9). Jesus didn't argue that it wasn't his to offer; it was. Temporarily, rulership over this fallen earth belongs to Satan.

Jesus is known as the Great Redeemer, our Redeemer. In Hebrew law, any Jewish landowner who loses the deed to his property through indebtedness, has the right to have his closest blood relative, with the means, purchase it back for him.

The law mandates, the holder of the indebted land may NOT sell it to anyone else; but must first sell it to the closest blood relative, if one is found. Also, the landowner MUST allow that relative to redeem the deed for him, and that redeemer MUST hand over the land, allow the landowner to live on the land as if he never lost it, and wait to be paid back for the debt, even if his relative never gains the means to repay.

In Revelation 5:2, the angel is trying to find someone worthy in heaven or earth to open the book with the 7 seals, and even wept when not finding anyone. Then Jesus (the Lion of Judah, the Root of David) steps up and takes the book from the one Who sat on the Throne.

The four beasts and 20 elders fall down to worship the Lamb singing (Rev 5:9) Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

The blood of Jesus is His bloodline (Matthew 1:1-17). The only way to redeem the earth back from Satan, is for the closest blood relative, with the means, to pay the debt. The debt is sin. The Father cannot accept the blood of bulls and goats as substitutionary payment. He must have the blood of a sinless sacrifice, a perfect second Adam, to pay for his sin (and those of every generation since). With the opening of the 7 seals, Jesus, as the closest relative in the bloodline, takes back possession of the earth from Satan, and hands it over free and clear to those who are the redeemed by His Blood, forever and ever!


Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.​
5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:​
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.​
7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.​
8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;​
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.​
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.​
11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:​
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;​

Rom 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Praise, honor and glory to the Lamb.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
16,979
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#38
Gen_18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:
Would you rather hear what God has to say?

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19)

Job got it right: Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? (Job 10:9)
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
3,507
926
113
#39
Scripture affirms we are dust and ashes. It's the same difference.


Would you rather hear what God has to say?

In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. (Gen 3:19)

Job got it right: Remember, I beseech thee, that thou hast made me as the clay; and wilt thou bring me into dust again? (Job 10:9)
 

Budman

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2014
4,153
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#40
I totally disagree.. Woman inherited the sin nature and pass it on just as men do.. And how can one have the position that Sin entered the world through Adam when Eve was the first to sin?
Because Eve was deceived and Adam sinned knowingly. Also, Adam represented all of mankind through his position of authority. Which is why Jesus came to us without a human father via a virgin.