Is God A Moral Monster?

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PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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In the gospels we read of Jesus surrounded by children, perhaps with a child on his knee, young, innocent and without malice, and then I read this:-

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle,
and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation
of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds,
which came from the battle.


And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD
in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.


Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:9-18)


Reading that makes me feel very sick. We know Jesus is God on earth, the Bible tells us so. We also know God is unchanging. Clearly Moses has forsaken the I AM. In Romans 8:35 we read:- "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

The answer to Paul's question is those who follow the teaching of Moses. They are the ones who separate us from the love of God. We see this perfectly in Paul's own experience and likewise when he persecuted Christians. This personification of evil is seen in those who follow the god of Moses.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
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The teaching and the 50 commandments of Jesus are very different from the law of of Moses. In fact, there is very little in common.
So in your opinion you believe the Mosaic law was all of Moses's doing and the Prophet didn't receive divine council on how to lead and govern God's chosen nation?
 

calibob

Sinner saved by grace
May 29, 2018
6,786
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lawton ok
When there is a change in priesthood the law also needed to be changed. (Hebrews)
Gospel of John Ch 13 NIV 34A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
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In the gospels we read of Jesus surrounded by children, perhaps with a child on his knee, young, innocent and without malice, and then I read this:-

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle,
and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation
of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds,
which came from the battle.


And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD
in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.


Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:9-18)


Reading that makes me feel very sick. We know Jesus is God on earth, the Bible tells us so. We also know God is unchanging. Clearly Moses has forsaken the I AM. In Romans 8:35 we read:- "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

The answer to Paul's question is those who follow the teaching of Moses. They are the ones who separate us from the love of God. We see this perfectly in Paul's own experience and likewise when he persecuted Christians. This personification of evil is seen in those who follow the god of Moses.
I didn't know we could pick and choose what is true in the Bible? OT acts was either God commanded or acts of disobedience. Very clear was God's commands to Joshua.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
113
When there is a change in priesthood the law also needed to be changed. (Hebrews)
Gospel of John Ch 13 NIV 34A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.”
Obviously if their is a new command there was once a old command lol.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,669
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I didn't know we could pick and choose what is true in the Bible? OT acts was either God commanded or acts of disobedience. Very clear was God's commands to Joshua.
Good and evil are obvious, but thanks be to God, we are safe and secure in the arms of Jesus.

There is much that is good in the Old Testament. David knew Jesus, and although he did not write Psalm 121, it is one of my favourites. Look to the one in the psalm, and not to man.

I'm going to stop on this subject now, my motive was to turn people to Jesus. The rest is up to the individual.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,669
583
113
So in your opinion you believe the Mosaic law was all of Moses's doing and the Prophet didn't receive divine council on how to lead and govern God's chosen nation?
Contrary to what people think, the Old Testament was written by four people, and combined into a whole by a fifth person. They are known only by their initials.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,669
583
113
I didn't know we could pick and choose what is true in the Bible? OT acts was either God commanded or acts of disobedience. Very clear was God's commands to Joshua.
The I AM led the Israelites out of Egypt and safely over the Red Sea. After that they turned to false gods. That is when it all went wrong. They have never returned, except for the remnant.
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
4,669
583
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Obviously if their is a new command there was once a old command lol.
The old said, “Love your neighbor,” but the new said, “Love your enemies.”

Moses showed no love towards his enemies, yet there is only One unchanging God.

Try to work it out.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,222
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Hi Roughsoul,
I take your point about the word love having a range of flavours , as it were. Obviously the greek had more words for different sorts of love. The Agape love of God has a specific meaning.....the unconditional love of God that seeks the best for everyone. It is the twisting of murders and rape and sexual slavery into a definition of love that I object to. As this empties the word of any connection to the experience, common sense tells us is loving.

The bible is trustworthy as a guide in our relationship with God and man, but it is the living relationship with the living Word that is primary. To me, while the bible is inspired ( not infallible, in fact does it even claim to be inerrant and infallible?......just curious), the Word of God is the wisdom that we receive from our contemplation of the written word, not the words themselves. They need spiritual discernment. Because I see it as a guide and not absolute it frees me to question.
From what source do you propose to obtain "spiritual discernment"?
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,720
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MELACH:
are you saying they were nephilim then? those in samuel?


Yes.
There is no maximum height requirement for those eligible for hearing the gospel and believing God.

The key is in how the word "renown" is used through the Bible. Giants of faith. No Jokers allowed

There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. Genisis 6:.......Noah was a man of renown.

The key to upstanding the word Nephilim is that of the renown. It always refers the sons of God as new creatures led by the holy Spirit.

David was one of the giants of faith. His opponents were like grasshoppers to him . The men of renown were given the power to believe and move.

No evil super hero's as evildoers they shall never be renowned.They are led by the spirit of error, the father of lies..

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Ezekiel 34:29And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more.

Numbers 16:2 And they rose up before Moses, with certain of the children of Israel, two hundred and fifty princes of the assembly, famous in the congregation, men of renown:

Isaiah 14:20 Thou shalt not be joined with them in burial, because thou hast destroyed thy land, and slain thy people: the seed of evildoers shall never be renowned.
 

Dino246

Senior Member
Jun 30, 2015
11,222
5,637
113
In the gospels we read of Jesus surrounded by children, perhaps with a child on his knee, young, innocent and without malice, and then I read this:-

And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle,
and all their flocks, and all their goods. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts.

And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and unto the congregation
of the children of Israel, unto the camp at the plains of Moab, which are by Jordan near Jericho.
And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp.
And Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds,
which came from the battle.


And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD
in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.


Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
(Num 31:9-18)


Reading that makes me feel very sick. We know Jesus is God on earth, the Bible tells us so. We also know God is unchanging. Clearly Moses has forsaken the I AM. In Romans 8:35 we read:- "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"

The answer to Paul's question is those who follow the teaching of Moses. They are the ones who separate us from the love of God. We see this perfectly in Paul's own experience and likewise when he persecuted Christians. This personification of evil is seen in those who follow the god of Moses.
There is only ONE God:

The One Who created the heavens and the earth;
The One Who called Abram out of Haran;
The One Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah;
The One Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush;
The One Who led Israel through the Red Sea;
The One Who gave the Law through Moses;
The One Who commanded the annihilation of sinful Canaanites;
The One Who raised up judges, prophets, kings and priests;
The One Who rebuked David for his adultery and murder;
The One Who told Hosea to marry a harlot;
The One Who appeared to Isaiah;
The One Who spoke and fulfilled prophecy repeatedly;
The One Who came in the flesh;
The One Who healed the sick and raised the dead;
The One Who was crucified on a Roman cross;
The One Who rose again to life;
The One Who will judge the living and the dead at at the end.

One King. One Judge. One God.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
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The old said, “Love your neighbor,” but the new said, “Love your enemies.”

Moses showed no love towards his enemies, yet there is only One unchanging God.

Try to work it out.
God's judgment is just. God chose this judgment and commanded his people to carry it out. To believe anything else goes against the scripture and you have no evidence to prove otherwise. The Lord Almighty says is quite clear.

So what do you make of this verse?

1 Samuel 15:2-3

2 This is what the Lord Almighty says: ‘I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt.
3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy all that belongs to them. Do not spare them
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
113
Good and evil are obvious, but thanks be to God, we are safe and secure in the arms of Jesus.

There is much that is good in the Old Testament. David knew Jesus, and although he did not write Psalm 121, it is one of my favourites. Look to the one in the psalm, and not to man.

I'm going to stop on this subject now, my motive was to turn people to Jesus. The rest is up to the individual.
Your motives are are not accurate. Cherry picking scriptures just because you do not like events in the old is the wrong approach. Finding a theological answer to those verses are way more wise than telling people the Bible isn't 100% accurate.

If the Bible isnt 100% accurate then you are just choosing what you want to believe.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
113
Contrary to what people think, the Old Testament was written by four people, and combined into a whole by a fifth person. They are known only by their initials.
Where are your sources? This is some far left field stuff.
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
113
The I AM led the Israelites out of Egypt and safely over the Red Sea. After that they turned to false gods. That is when it all went wrong. They have never returned, except for the remnant.
Why believe the first and not the later events? Where is your evidence that after the Red sea the God who spoke was a corrupted Version by Moses?
 

Roughsoul1991

Senior Member
Sep 17, 2016
3,068
615
113
There is only ONE God:

The One Who created the heavens and the earth;
The One Who called Abram out of Haran;
The One Who destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah;
The One Who spoke to Moses from the burning bush;
The One Who led Israel through the Red Sea;
The One Who gave the Law through Moses;
The One Who commanded the annihilation of sinful Canaanites;
The One Who raised up judges, prophets, kings and priests;
The One Who rebuked David for his adultery and murder;
The One Who told Hosea to marry a harlot;
The One Who appeared to Isaiah;
The One Who spoke and fulfilled prophecy repeatedly;
The One Who came in the flesh;
The One Who healed the sick and raised the dead;
The One Who was crucified on a Roman cross;
The One Who rose again to life;
The One Who will judge the living and the dead at at the end.

One King. One Judge. One God.
Amen
 

Heyjude

Active member
Sep 7, 2019
275
120
43
One things for sure, any "angry atheist" who starts attacking a believer hasn't a leg to stand on when you ask them if they have actually read the Bible? In fact, I always ask when they read the book, so they have to deny they have. They have no idea what is in it, cannot even talk about the characters in it, and when I ask them how can they give an opinion on a book they haven't even picked up, they stare blankly. And yes, the thread isn't about Richard Dawkins, but he has caused by his book more anger and anti-Christ people to believe him by reading his book and not Gods. Yet now "Intelligent Design" is the way forward, he is quite happy to believe in "Ancient Aliens". Anyone without a face. Anyone that doesn't judge or hold him accountable so Ancient Aliens will do. Anything but God you could say as far as he is concerned.

I heard Richard Dawkins interviewed once, he was asked if he ever did believe in God once. He said when he was a little kid, in South Africa or something, he was lonely so he prayed to God that the animals would talk to him and it "didn't work". Get over it RD. God willing, maybe one day a Donkey might come and have a chat with you.
 

Silverwings

Senior Member
Jul 27, 2016
1,036
248
63
The old said, “Love your neighbor,” but the new said, “Love your enemies.”

Moses showed no love towards his enemies, yet there is only One unchanging God.

Try to work it out.
God dealt differently with people after Jesus came, the new testament is different from the old one. Yet he is the same God.