Is the Gentile Church "hidden" in the OT? Paul says: yes it is in Romans 10.....

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arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
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#21
Jesus is foreshadowed and written about numerous times in the Old Testament.

The New Testament identifies many types and shadows of Christ in the Old Testament
  • Matthew 12:40 compares Jesus with Jonah: “For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.”

  • John 3:14 compares Jesus with the Bronze Serpent: “As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up.” The bronze serpent looked forward to Christ redeeming us.

  • John 6:32-33 compares Jesus with the manna: “Moses did not give you the bread from heaven, but My Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”

  • Romans 5:14 compares Jesus with Adam: “Adam is a type of Him who was to come.”

  • First Corinthians 5:7 compares Jesus with the Passover Lamb: “For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.”

  • First Corinthians 10:4 compares Jesus with the rock that accompanied Israel in the wilderness: “[Israel] drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.”

  • Hebrews 10:20 compares Jesus’ body with the veil in the temple that when “torn” on the cross revealed the access believers have to the Father: “[We have] a new and living way [to God] which [Jesus] consecrated for us, through the veil, [which] is, His flesh.”

  • Hebrews 11:17-19 compares Isaac with Jesus. When Abraham sacrificed his son, it was a picture of God sacrificing His Son: “Abraham…offered up Isaac…He considered that God was able even to raise him from the dead.”
 

glen55

Active member
Jul 10, 2021
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#22
Is the Gentile Church "hidden" in the OT? Paul says: yes it is in Romans 10.....


The Church is neither Jewish nor Gentile-ish anymore...

Galatians
3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
I do agree with that letter, even explained what was written was allergies that used male and female being covenants, the secular habits taught was history with new wine starting 2000 years ago is supernatural destroyed by time being mastered by secular history. The most neglected need to understand outside stories are actually taking place in man, Saul was addicted to flesh and bloods intelligence on OT not Spirituality happening in us, not seen or heard by the Greastist first born by woman.
Matt 11:11Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,012
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#23
Rom 10:19
But I say, did Israel not know? First Moses says:

“I will provoke you to jealousy by those who are not a nation,
I will move you to anger by a
foolish nation."


Rom 10:20
But Isaiah is very bold and says:

“I was found by those who did not seek Me;
I was made manifest to those who did not ask for Me.”


That is not to say that the NT is absolutely required to rightly interpret all OT prophecies....it is not.
Questions: is the body of Christ local or universal? It's one or the other but not both.

If the church is all redeemed... and it began at Jerusalem... what about the redeemed of the OT?

I still contend for the church being local only and beginning with Jesus and His disciples.

All redeemed will be one church in heaven in the yet future.. but that hasnt happened yet.

Matthew 16:18.. Jesus building His church..

Almost all the refs to church after this point are local. Eg.. Ephesus Corinth Antioch Phillipi..

For Jesus to refer to building a church that is not local in Matthew 16:18... would be illogical.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
770
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#24
Questions: is the body of Christ local or universal? It's one or the other but not both.

If the church is all redeemed... and it began at Jerusalem... what about the redeemed of the OT?

I still contend for the church being local only and beginning with Jesus and His disciples.

All redeemed will be one church in heaven in the yet future.. but that hasnt happened yet.

Matthew 16:18.. Jesus building His church..

Almost all the refs to church after this point are local. Eg.. Ephesus Corinth Antioch Phillipi..

For Jesus to refer to building a church that is not local in Matthew 16:18... would be illogical.
You refer to the churches being local and not universal and you point out the churches of Ephesus, Corinth, Antioch, and Phillipi. It is true that they were distinct and local churches, no doubt about that. But you missed the point about 'Jesus building His Church'. All the local churches you mentioned were part of the universal Church that Jesus was building, all being taught by the same apostles or disciples taught by the apostles. They were separate churches due to their geographic separation but part of a universal church that was spreading the same gospel throughout the known world.

Some members of the local churches at that time claimed to be followers of this apostle or that disciple. But Paul made it clear that all Christians were universally followers of Christ and His Church and His Gospel. Paul said, "That one is not Paul; it is Jesus the Christ. Paul the apostle underscored the exclusive supremacy of God’s divine-human Son in all matters of salvation (1 Corinthians 3:11; Philippians 2:5-11; Colossians 1:18-22, 27, 28). At the core of our faith and practice, Paul would say Christians follow Christ alone (Galatians 2:20)."
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
770
113
#25
Questions: is the body of Christ local or universal? It's one or the other but not both.

If the church is all redeemed... and it began at Jerusalem... what about the redeemed of the OT?

I still contend for the church being local only and beginning with Jesus and His disciples.

All redeemed will be one church in heaven in the yet future.. but that hasnt happened yet.

Matthew 16:18.. Jesus building His church..

Almost all the refs to church after this point are local. Eg.. Ephesus Corinth Antioch Phillipi..

For Jesus to refer to building a church that is not local in Matthew 16:18... would be illogical.
Keep in mind that, in the Bible, Jesus promised to build His church and prayed that they all be one. Jesus never promised multiple churches that were separated from each other in terms of religious belief. Jesus sent out His Apostles/Disciples to build up His church everywhere. The Apostles/Disciples spread the Gospel and established Jesus' Church in many geographic areas. They were local churches but part of Jesus' universal church that Jesus founded.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
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New Zealand
#26
Keep in mind that, in the Bible, Jesus promised to build His church and prayed that they all be one. Jesus never promised multiple churches that were separated from each other in terms of religious belief. Jesus sent out His Apostles/Disciples to build up His church everywhere. The Apostles/Disciples spread the Gospel and established Jesus' Church in many geographic areas. They were local churches but part of Jesus' universal church that Jesus founded.
Keep in mind that, in the Bible, Jesus promised to build His church and prayed that they all be one. Jesus never promised multiple churches that were separated from each other in terms of religious belief. Jesus sent out His Apostles/Disciples to build up His church everywhere. The Apostles/Disciples spread the Gospel and established Jesus' Church in many geographic areas. They were local churches but part of Jesus' universal church that Jesus founded.
But if we a accept this, what of Old Testament believers?

If the church is all redeemed... it would have started with Adam.
 

arthurfleminger

Well-known member
Aug 18, 2021
1,405
770
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#27
But if we a accept this, what of Old Testament believers?

If the church is all redeemed... it would have started with Adam.
Wattie, I don't understand your point, maybe you could clarify. The issue raised in my posts that you cited indicated my belief that Jesus Church was a universal Church that consisted of local churches that the Apostles/Disciples initiated when they began spreading the gospel. When I referred to a 'Universal Church', I wasn't referring to a Church that went back in a time that preceded it. Instead, the Universal Church, that I was referring to meant a 'worldwide Church' that encompassed the world.

Old Testament believers couldn't have believed in Jesus Church because it wasn't around at their time.
 

wattie

Senior Member
Feb 24, 2009
3,012
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New Zealand
#28
Wattie, I don't understand your point, maybe you could clarify. The issue raised in my posts that you cited indicated my belief that Jesus Church was a universal Church that consisted of local churches that the Apostles/Disciples initiated when they began spreading the gospel. When I referred to a 'Universal Church', I wasn't referring to a Church that went back in a time that preceded it. Instead, the Universal Church, that I was referring to meant a 'worldwide Church' that encompassed the world.

Old Testament believers couldn't have believed in Jesus Church because it wasn't around at their time.
Okay, well the most popular belief that I have seen is that there is now an 'invisible, universal' church of all redeemed.

Most folks who believe this also have this starting at Pentecost.. which would exclude redeemed believers from the Old Testament, and therefore how are the OT believers then redeemed?

This is one of the major reasons why I don't adhere to a body of Christ of all believers that is present now. The biggest reason though is the definition of 'church' being a 'called out assembly' and ancient uses of it were always of local assemblies.

If you though are calling all God's local churches ...Jesus' universal church.. well.. that is not much different from what I believe :)

I just wouldn't call all of them 'universal'