Is Universalsim in Opposition to the Bible?
- Thread starter IsaiahX
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
You were responding to my quote: "I wonder if even today God has his own dear children that are in an isolated situation completely removed from any offering of grace through typical means. And that their names have been written in the Lamb's Book of Life, even though they have no idea what that even is." Bold emphasis yours.
Notice, I included two things here:
1) This is something I wonder about. (therefore worthy of discussion)
2) Those in question are completely removed from any offering of grace through typical means.
Do you not believe that there are those on a planet of some 6 billion souls who have not heard the gospel?
All destined to a forever burning hell as punishment for their apparent "rejection" of Christ?
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Notice, I included two things here:
1) This is something I wonder about. (therefore worthy of discussion)
2) Those in question are completely removed from any offering of grace through typical means.
Do you not believe that there are those on a planet of some 6 billion souls who have not heard the gospel?
All destined to a forever burning hell as punishment for their apparent "rejection" of Christ?
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Add this to my previous post.
Persons from "every tribe and language and people and nation" even in unreached people groups.
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Persons from "every tribe and language and people and nation" even in unreached people groups.
Revelation 5:9
And they sang a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals, because you were slain, and with your blood you purchased for God persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Revelation 7:9
After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.
Do you not believe that there are those on a planet of some 6 billion souls who have not heard the gospel?
I believe there are many on planet earth today who have not heard the Gospel..
All destined to a forever burning hell as punishment for their apparent "rejection" of Christ?
I do not believe they are all destined to burn in the eternal Lake of Fire.. If one has not heard the Gospel they cannot reject have rejected it.. So there is no apparent rejection of Christ yet in their time in existence..
I believe there are many on planet earth today who have not heard the Gospel..
All destined to a forever burning hell as punishment for their apparent "rejection" of Christ?
I do not believe they are all destined to burn in the eternal Lake of Fire.. If one has not heard the Gospel they cannot reject have rejected it.. So there is no apparent rejection of Christ yet in their time in existence..
I can't find that either. As per a place that Lazarus went when he slept. John 11
Martha had known the truth also, she said " I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day" John 11:24
Martha doesn't elaborate from whence her brother will rise.
This is what I think. Many of us in another thread argue that we inherit our "sin nature" from Adam. A curse he received for disobedience, though Eve disobeyed first, that carried on to all human generations from which Adam and Eve were progenitors.
But that isn't what the Bible states as the curses Adam carried forth.
"And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:17 - 3:19 AMP).
Perhaps when Jesus said Lazarus is dead, and he was referred to as sleeping, though many believe in soul sleep, which is also in dispute more often than not, what he was talking about was Lazarus' soul returned to the Father while his body was in the tomb to return to the dust.
Or, perhaps it was dust all together until Jesus died on the cross.
Martha had known the truth also, she said " I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day" John 11:24
Martha doesn't elaborate from whence her brother will rise.
This is what I think. Many of us in another thread argue that we inherit our "sin nature" from Adam. A curse he received for disobedience, though Eve disobeyed first, that carried on to all human generations from which Adam and Eve were progenitors.
But that isn't what the Bible states as the curses Adam carried forth.
"And to Adam He said, Because you have listened and given heed to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, saying, You shall not eat of it, the ground is under a curse because of you; in sorrow and toil shall you eat [of the fruits] of it all the days of your life. Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth for you, and you shall eat the plants of the field. In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return" (Genesis 3:17 - 3:19 AMP).
Perhaps when Jesus said Lazarus is dead, and he was referred to as sleeping, though many believe in soul sleep, which is also in dispute more often than not, what he was talking about was Lazarus' soul returned to the Father while his body was in the tomb to return to the dust.
Or, perhaps it was dust all together until Jesus died on the cross.
This may also help our study. Source: eBible
Where did Lazarus go when he first died, before The Lord Jesus raised him from the dead?
From Solomon's wisdom:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5 - 9:6 KJV).
B. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV).
Where did Lazarus go when he first died, before The Lord Jesus raised him from the dead?
From Solomon's wisdom:
"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun (Ecclesiastes 9:5 - 9:6 KJV).
B. "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest. (Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJV).
I'd agree with the first of Nehemiah's response. The latter not so much as Universalism can be defended with scripture. Which is why there are those that profess themselves to be Universalist Christians.
What is sometimes not known by those who are not that familiar with the OT scriptures, or think they pertain only to the Jews, is that Jesus figured prominently in the Old Testament.
This should be understood as Jesus himself recalled to the people that fact when he said of himself and his name, or what he should be known by; I Am.
And the scriptures wherein God's angel told Mary of her God appointed destiny. To beget the Messiah and his name shall be, Emmanuel, meaning, as the angel told her, God with us.
That's pretty hard to miss; GOD with us.
What is sometimes not known by those who are not that familiar with the OT scriptures, or think they pertain only to the Jews, is that Jesus figured prominently in the Old Testament.
This should be understood as Jesus himself recalled to the people that fact when he said of himself and his name, or what he should be known by; I Am.
And the scriptures wherein God's angel told Mary of her God appointed destiny. To beget the Messiah and his name shall be, Emmanuel, meaning, as the angel told her, God with us.
That's pretty hard to miss; GOD with us.
If judgment lasts forever and we're to accept those who die in their sins go to a place away from God that created all places, Hell, whatever someone wants to call it, be it Sheol, Hades, etc... Why then didn't God differentiate that in the beginning of things?
How would Solomon, said to be the wisest man on earth, not know what he was referring to in his passages. Nor God for that matter as he informed the Adam of his destiny in Genesis 3?
Genesis 3:19
"By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
King David's writing:
Psalm 115:17
"The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence."
And how would the soul suffer fire? When the soul is God's breath?
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts.
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
How would Solomon, said to be the wisest man on earth, not know what he was referring to in his passages. Nor God for that matter as he informed the Adam of his destiny in Genesis 3?
Genesis 3:19
"By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”
Ecclesiastes 3:20
All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6
"For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Their love and their hate and their envy have already perished, and forever they have no more share in all that is done under the sun."
Ecclesiastes 12:7
"And the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it."
King David's writing:
Psalm 115:17
"The dead do not praise the Lord, nor do any who go down into silence."
And how would the soul suffer fire? When the soul is God's breath?
Genesis 2:7
Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living soul.
Ezekiel 18:4
Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.
Proverbs 20:27
The spirit of man is the lamp of the Lord, searching all his innermost parts.
Job 33:4
The Spirit of God has made me, and the breath of the Almighty gives me life.
God did not reveal everything at once. That is why Bible scholars have concluded that there is progressive revelation.
Solomon was the wisest man that was created. But Christ was greater than Solomon, and it was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave us the full revelation about the afterlife.
This applies directly to the human body. All human bodies eventually return to the dust after burial. This was a direct result of Adam's disobedience, and death became the reality for the human race.
This is strictly about the body. It has nothing to say about the soul and spirit.
Please note "under the sun" -- which means within human experience. Also this was true for the OT saints as well as the unsaved dead. They all went to Sheol/Hades, and as we know from the NT, there were two *compartments* there -- one for the righteous dead, the other for the unrighteous. And all the souls and spirits in Hades remained silent. Thus "the dead know nothing". This was true until Christ went to Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison.
Here the writer is speaking about the human body and the breath of life. The body returns to dust, while the breath of life returns to God in that life is taken away from that person. The word וְהָר֣וּחַ (ve·ha·ru·ach) can mean either breath or spirit, or even wind, depending on the context.
Very true as applicable to Sheol. The souls and spirits of the dead in Sheol remained silent. Which also tells us that when mediums claim to be communicating with the dead, that is a lie. It is evil spirits masquerading as the dead who come to the mediums.
Adam was a DIRECT CREATION of God, and this is strictly applicable to Adam. However, all human beings after Adam and Eve are born by natural human birth, and God gives life to each unborn child. So God's breath has nothing to do with the eternal destiny of the lost.
Very true, and applicable to both the first and second deaths. And that is why we also have this Scripture in the Bible, so that no one has to be damned: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
Since *man* is unqualified, it means all human beings. So what is it that searches the *innermost parts*? It is the human conscience, and God has given all a conscience in order to distinguish right from wrong: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another... (Rom 2:14,15)
This simply means that it is God who gives life to human beings. He gives life and He also takes away life.
None of these passages are meant to contradict what the Bible leaches about eternal damnation. They are a part of the total truth about life and the afterlife. So if we wish to know the truth we must take ALL SCRIPTURE into account from Genesis to Revelation. And it is in Revelation that God shows us the fate of those who are not written the the Lamb's book of Life:
REVELATION 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Solomon was the wisest man that was created. But Christ was greater than Solomon, and it was the Lord Jesus Christ who gave us the full revelation about the afterlife.
This applies directly to the human body. All human bodies eventually return to the dust after burial. This was a direct result of Adam's disobedience, and death became the reality for the human race.
This is strictly about the body. It has nothing to say about the soul and spirit.
Please note "under the sun" -- which means within human experience. Also this was true for the OT saints as well as the unsaved dead. They all went to Sheol/Hades, and as we know from the NT, there were two *compartments* there -- one for the righteous dead, the other for the unrighteous. And all the souls and spirits in Hades remained silent. Thus "the dead know nothing". This was true until Christ went to Sheol/Hades for 3 days and 3 nights and proclaimed His victory to all the spirits in prison.
Here the writer is speaking about the human body and the breath of life. The body returns to dust, while the breath of life returns to God in that life is taken away from that person. The word וְהָר֣וּחַ (ve·ha·ru·ach) can mean either breath or spirit, or even wind, depending on the context.
Very true as applicable to Sheol. The souls and spirits of the dead in Sheol remained silent. Which also tells us that when mediums claim to be communicating with the dead, that is a lie. It is evil spirits masquerading as the dead who come to the mediums.
Adam was a DIRECT CREATION of God, and this is strictly applicable to Adam. However, all human beings after Adam and Eve are born by natural human birth, and God gives life to each unborn child. So God's breath has nothing to do with the eternal destiny of the lost.
Very true, and applicable to both the first and second deaths. And that is why we also have this Scripture in the Bible, so that no one has to be damned: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom 6:23)
Since *man* is unqualified, it means all human beings. So what is it that searches the *innermost parts*? It is the human conscience, and God has given all a conscience in order to distinguish right from wrong: For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another... (Rom 2:14,15)
This simply means that it is God who gives life to human beings. He gives life and He also takes away life.
None of these passages are meant to contradict what the Bible leaches about eternal damnation. They are a part of the total truth about life and the afterlife. So if we wish to know the truth we must take ALL SCRIPTURE into account from Genesis to Revelation. And it is in Revelation that God shows us the fate of those who are not written the the Lamb's book of Life:
REVELATION 20
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
You say that universalism can be defended with scripture, as if there is a sufficiency of evidence for it. Yet, what I see, is an attempt to defend a doctrine, much like many doctrines can be defended in scripture so long as its a half-truth. There are sparse verses used by people who believe in Universalism but they use such verses in a manner that twists intent.
For example, that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world (in 1 John 2), they take that to mean that Jesus has paid for everyone's sin and therefore, everyone is saved. This is a falsehood. He is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the world, but the means by which this is accounted onto us is by faith. This is not an automatic process devoid of repentance.
You see, there is the half-truth. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world. However, that isn't the end of the story, that isn't the complete picture. We are saved by grace through faith.
For example, that Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world (in 1 John 2), they take that to mean that Jesus has paid for everyone's sin and therefore, everyone is saved. This is a falsehood. He is the propitiation for our sins and the sins of the world, but the means by which this is accounted onto us is by faith. This is not an automatic process devoid of repentance.
You see, there is the half-truth. Jesus is the propitiation for the sins of the world. However, that isn't the end of the story, that isn't the complete picture. We are saved by grace through faith.
Don't forget John 3:17.
Let's explore this shall we? Note just to preclude wrong conclusions. I'm putting forth questions, these do not necessarily reflect my beliefs.
We're saved by God's unmerited grace and mercy. These are points of scripture that most of us know so there aren't references here to those.
We are known by God before he creates the world , those who will become saved. Which means, as the scriptures tell us, God knew us by name before we knew him.
Why then would it be incumbent on us to hold faith when God saved us before the world?
Let's explore this shall we? Note just to preclude wrong conclusions. I'm putting forth questions, these do not necessarily reflect my beliefs.
We're saved by God's unmerited grace and mercy. These are points of scripture that most of us know so there aren't references here to those.
We are known by God before he creates the world , those who will become saved. Which means, as the scriptures tell us, God knew us by name before we knew him.
Why then would it be incumbent on us to hold faith when God saved us before the world?
Jesus Christ also commanded us to agapè love our enemies.
True Christians should be going for God's best in relating with all others.
So agapè is for spouses on down to even our enemies.
Think of a 10-1 scale:
10-9 love for enemies (with no praying for bad for them),
8-7 love for acquaintances at public places,
6-4 for best friends and relatives,
3-1 for Christian spouse.
-
1
- Show all
11 Concerning Him we have much to say,
and {it is} hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers,
you have need again for someone to teach you
the elementary principles of the oracles of God,
and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes {only} of milk
is not accustomed to the word of righteousness,
for he {or she} is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature,
who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about The Christ,
let us press on to maturity,
not laying again a foundation
of repentance from dead works
and of faith toward God,
2 of instruction about washings and laying on of hands,
and the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgment.
3 And this we will do, if God permits.
4 For in the case of those who
have once been enlightened
and have tasted of the Heavenly gift
and have been made partakers of The Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good Word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and {then} have fallen away,
it is impossible to renew them again to repentance,
since they again crucify to themselves The Son Of God
and put Him to open shame.
And what about the 2nd half of Romans 1?
Who said anything changed? However if the totality of truth was not revealed at the beginning, then you must accept THE WHOLE COUNSEL OF GOD from Genesis to Revelation, not get stuck in Ecclesiastes.
And that's what progressive revelation is about. It would appear that you wish to concoct your own theology (and you are not alone in that fruitless endeavor).
And that's what progressive revelation is about. It would appear that you wish to concoct your own theology (and you are not alone in that fruitless endeavor).
Of course our current corrupted physical bodies will return to earth.. We will not be raised into the current bodies we are existing in.. We shall be raised in perfected eternal glorified bodies..
Personally i am not concerned where God parks my spirit during the time between my death and transformation.. His will be done.. God could place us in a place without time.. So the time between our death and Resurrection might be instantaneous to us.. God knows ...
PS: There where two different man mentioned in the NT who had the name Lazarus.. One was the friend of Jesus whom Jesus raised from the dead.. And the other was the Lazarus mentioned in the Parable..
Personally i am not concerned where God parks my spirit during the time between my death and transformation.. His will be done.. God could place us in a place without time.. So the time between our death and Resurrection might be instantaneous to us.. God knows ...
PS: There where two different man mentioned in the NT who had the name Lazarus.. One was the friend of Jesus whom Jesus raised from the dead.. And the other was the Lazarus mentioned in the Parable..