Jesus is God

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Mar 4, 2020
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Sinless, exact representation of God.

That means Jesus is God. He has all the attributes.

A person's representation as a child of God is entirely different to Jesus status as Son.
Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city

James 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Hebrews 4
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
 

wattie

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Feb 24, 2009
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Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city

James 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Hebrews 4
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
Jesus' status is more than a man. He is an example to follow.. but we can't be Jesus.

I need to look at this more. But first impressions is that in the OT.. Jesus wasn't in the flesh as man at all.. but with the Father and Holy Spirit. So there is not problem with God not being man in the OT.

Then with James-- what is the wider context? This is mortal men being tempted.. not the same thing as Jesus being tempted.

With Hebrews-- Jesus is without sin. That's a status beyond mere man. Believers can't be sinless.

Jesus did go through trials as fully man.. but His response to them is fully God.

But the real crux of the matter is- Jesus gives eternal life. If you lower His status.. what are you saying about eternal salvation through Him?
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Jesus' status is more than a man. He is an example to follow.. but we can't be Jesus.

I need to look at this more. But first impressions is that in the OT.. Jesus wasn't in the flesh as man at all.. but with the Father and Holy Spirit. So there is not problem with God not being man in the OT.

Then with James-- what is the wider context? This is mortal men being tempted.. not the same thing as Jesus being tempted.

With Hebrews-- Jesus is without sin. That's a status beyond mere man. Believers can't be sinless.

Jesus did go through trials as fully man.. but His response to them is fully God.
You seem to prefer any other explanation than what the plain text reveals in all of the verses I have shown here.

But the real crux of the matter is- Jesus gives eternal life.
I agree. I have nothing else to add to this thread.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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Numbers 23
19God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?

1 Samuel 15
29And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man, that he should repent.

Hosea 11
9I will not execute the fierceness of mine anger, I will not return to destroy Ephraim: for I am God, and not man; the Holy One in the midst of thee: and I will not enter into the city

James 1
13Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

Hebrews 4
15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

great is the mystery of godliness:
God was manifest in the flesh

(1 Timothy 3:16)
if this was easy to accept or comprehend, God Himself would not describe it as a great mystery.
yet God Himself says this: all scripture is breathed by Him ((2 Timothy 3:16))
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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if this was easy to accept or comprehend, God Himself would not describe it as a great mystery. yet God Himself says this: all scripture is breathed by Him ((2 Timothy 3:16))
I had already posted 1 Timothy 3:16 KJB earlier. But the unbelievers love their unbelief. The enemies of Christ had every reason to acknowledge Him as "God manifest in the flesh" but they willfully refused to do so. Therefore they were plainly told that they would die in their sins (i.e. be eternally damned).
 
Mar 4, 2020
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I had already posted 1 Timothy 3:16 KJB earlier. But the unbelievers love their unbelief. The enemies of Christ had every reason to acknowledge Him as "God manifest in the flesh" but they willfully refused to do so. Therefore they were plainly told that they would die in their sins (i.e. be eternally damned).
I agree God was manifest in the flesh of Jesus Christ. I agree with everything the Bible says. Do you?
 

wattie

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Feb 24, 2009
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God manifest in the flesh of Jesus.... yet Jeaus being lesser than the Father... is what Runningman is saying.

Only way that is happening is if God being in the flesh is ontologically inferior to the Father.

Then that brings you into Polytheistic waters.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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God manifest in the flesh of Jesus.... yet Jeaus being lesser than the Father... is what Runningman is saying.

Only way that is happening is if God being in the flesh is ontologically inferior to the Father.

Then that brings you into Polytheistic waters.
The Bible is clearly monotheistic. Just out of curiosity, how do you see polytheism in the Bible?
 

swatfrog

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Nov 19, 2022
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The Old Testament is packed with unambiguous and direct quotes attributed to God where He said He is God. No interpretation required. Jesus never said any such things like "I am God." That's the only point I'm making.
Matthew 1:23

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
 

wattie

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The Bible is clearly monotheistic. Just out of curiosity, how do you see polytheism in the Bible?
Polytheism.. more than one god like beings that are seperate to each-other. In the bible they were primarily statues that could not speak, interact or move. Made in the likeness of men and creatures. They can be lesser than each other and unequal. Not all powerful or everywhere.

Monotheism-- with the one Triune God.. none of the essences of Him are unequal or lesser- un- created.. co-equal .. co-eternal. To be monotheism the 3 essences can't be seperate beings imo. They are distinct.. but I don't like the idea of actual seperation.

I call making Jesus lesser than the Father polytheism.. because that is a seperate god-like entity to the Father. If Jesus isn't fully God.. He is then another god. Because Jesus is not just a man.
 
Mar 4, 2020
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Polytheism.. more than one god like beings that are seperate to each-other. In the bible they were primarily statues that could not speak, interact or move. Made in the likeness of men and creatures. They can be lesser than each other and unequal. Not all powerful or everywhere.

Monotheism-- with the one Triune God.. none of the essences of Him are unequal or lesser- un- created.. co-equal .. co-eternal. To be monotheism the 3 essences can't be seperate beings imo. They are distinct.. but I don't like the idea of actual seperation.

I call making Jesus lesser than the Father polytheism.. because that is a seperate god-like entity to the Father. If Jesus isn't fully God.. He is then another god. Because Jesus is not just a man.
When Jesus said that his Father is greater than him, he wasn't referring to his Father being morally/righteously better than him, but positionally greater in power and authority. Jesus is also equal with his Father because of the power and authority that was given to him by his Father to do the things his Father can do. In the New Testament, Jesus is not greater than his Father at any time, nor does anyone ever claim that. Thus, a hierarchal relationship exists within the Trinity.

It must be closely noted that Paul always referred to the Father as God and Jesus as Lord; Peter also did the same and Jesus also did the same.

Jesus is divine because he is the begotten Son of God and the exact representation of God. That's very clear, but they are not the same individual person. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do different things independently of each other. This isn't polytheism.
 
Nov 26, 2021
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1 Jn 5:7, NKJV:

7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
 

wattie

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When Jesus said that his Father is greater than him, he wasn't referring to his Father being morally/righteously better than him, but positionally greater in power and authority. Jesus is also equal with his Father because of the power and authority that was given to him by his Father to do the things his Father can do. In the New Testament, Jesus is not greater than his Father at any time, nor does anyone ever claim that. Thus, a hierarchal relationship exists within the Trinity.

It must be closely noted that Paul always referred to the Father as God and Jesus as Lord; Peter also did the same and Jesus also did the same.

Jesus is divine because he is the begotten Son of God and the exact representation of God. That's very clear, but they are not the same individual person. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit do different things independently of each other. This isn't polytheism.
Okay ..finally you are actually saying Jesus is God.

We actually agree . Craziness :)
 
Nov 26, 2021
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St. Augustine: "O Lord God, we firmly believe that You are a Trinity. For Truth [Jesus] would never have said "Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" unless You were a Trinity. He said "Name" and not "names" because the Three Persons are One God."

We would never say "In the Name of Jesus, Peter and Paul", for the 3 are not one. Rather, "In the Name of Jesus" and then separately "in the names of Peter and Paul".

Also, the Father is Lord God. The Son is Lord God. The Spirit is Lord God. John 1:1 says Jesus is God. The jews referred to Yhwh God as "the Lord". Whenever it is said "Jesus Christ is the Lord", that's always a declaration that Jesus Christ is God, I.e. is the Lord God. Read Phil 2 and if you see the OT verse St. Paul is adapting speaks of YHWH, but Paul adapts it to confessing Jesus Christ as Lord, I.e. God.

God Bless.
 

williamjordan

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Feb 18, 2015
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John intended his readers to understand his narrative through the lens of the prologue. Those utilizing John 14:28 as a proof-text to the notion that Jesus is not consubstantial with the Father are doing so dishonestly.

John 14:28 is apart of a broader context—Jesus’ upper room discourse—which extends from John 13 through John 17. This is significant for the following reasons:

Throughout the discourse John places language on Jesus’ lips which is intended to cause his reader to recollect John 1:1-2. In John 13:1-3, Jesus states,

Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα), having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God (πρὸς τὸν θεὸν), got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.
Again, in John 14:6,

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα) but through Me.”
Again, in John 14:12,

Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα).
Again, in John 14:28 (ironically),

You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα), for the Father is greater than I.
Again, in John 16:10,

…and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα) and you no longer see Me
Again, in John 16:17,

Some of His disciples then said to one another, “What is this thing He is telling us, ‘A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me’; and, ‘because I go to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα)’?”
Again, in John 16:28,

I came forth from the Father and have come into the world; I am leaving the world again and going to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα).
John gives special emphasis to this πρὸς τὸν πατέρα/πρὸς τὸν θεὸν language; it is used eight times throughout such a short discourse. This language is also the very language used in John’s prologue,

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God (πρὸς τὸν θεὸν), and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God (πρὸς τὸν θεὸν).
That John intends this connection to be made is brought out in the immediate context. Recall John 13:1-3,

Now before the Feast of the Passover, Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father (πρὸς τὸν πατέρα), having loved His own who were in the world, He loved them to the end. During supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon, to betray Him, Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God (πρὸς τὸν θεὸν), got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.
Notice that John places emphasis on what Jesus was thinking: “Jesus knowing that His hour had come that He would depart out of this world to the Father… .” John tells us that what is on Christ’s mind is His ascension to the Father, that He is going to God (John 13:1). In 13:3, we see this yet again: “knowing that the Father had given all things into His hands, and that He had come forth from God and was going back to God… .” Jesus is thinking about this fact: that He came forth from God and was going back to God. And it is in this context that Jesus does this (John 13:4):

…got up from supper, and laid aside His garments; and taking a towel, He girded Himself.
Jesus is thinking about the fact that He came forth from God, and is illustrating for the disciples, the reality of His decent, His self humbling, His taking on the form of a servant, and subsequent to His completed work, His return to the Father; that place from whence He came. That place where He will once more “recline at the table,”

So when He had washed their feet, and taken His garments and reclined at the table again, He said to them, “Do you know what I have done to you? You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am. If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, washed your feet, you also ought to wash one another’s feet. For I gave you an example that you also should do as I did to you. (John 13:12-15)
This is exactly what Paul was talking about in Philippians 2. Paul exhorted Christians to,

Think this in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,
but emptied himself
by taking the form of a slave,
by becoming in the likeness of people.
Jesus came down from heaven, laid aside His outer glory, wrapped Himself in a “towel,” and became a servant. He was “born under the Law” (Galatians 4:4, Ps. 22:10, Jeremiah 32:27), and while on earth experienced true limitations. But there will come a time—in fulfillment of Ps. 110:1—by virtue of His ascension, when Jesus will once more taken back up those glorious garments and recline once again at the right hand of God the Father on high.

This gives the reason for why the disciples would then have “rejoiced” (John 14:28), because He is going πρὸς τὸν πατέρα (cf. John 1:1).
 

posthuman

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Jul 31, 2013
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It must be closely noted that Paul always referred to the Father as God and Jesus as Lord
Hmm

Jeremiah 9:24
But let him who glories glory in this, That he understands and knows Me, That I [am] the LORD, exercising lovingkindness, judgment, and righteousness in the earth. For in these I delight," says the LORD.

This is clearly speaking of YHWH


Paul quotes it here:

1 Corinthians 1:30-31
But of Him you are in Christ Jesus, who became for us wisdom from God—and righteousness and sanctification and redemption— that, as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the LORD."

Clearly identifying it as speaking of Christ.


Again:

Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass [That] whoever calls on the name of the LORD Shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be deliverance, As the LORD has said, Among the remnant whom the LORD calls.

Clearly speaks of YHWH

yet:

Romans 10:10-11
For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, "Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame."

Paul quotes it as clearly referencing Jesus




Seems to me Paul clearly preaches that Jesus is YHWH manifest in the flesh.
 

posthuman

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He humbled Himself to be found in the form of us, as men.

He set aside His glory

In that sense He became 'less' - in order for us to have more