Loss of salvation???

[Genez]

Unbelievers can become believers.

Believers can become unbelievers.

Therefore, sheep can become goats.

Sheep can become "like" goats."
But, being a sheep of God, they remain being a sheep.
A bad sheep perhaps, but sheep just the same.

It's like a woke male thinking he is a woman.
He is still a male. Just one who is insane.
An insane male.

 

[Inquisitor]

Sheep can become "like" goats."
But, being a sheep of God, they remain being a sheep.
A bad sheep perhaps, but sheep just the same.

It's like a woke male thinking he is a woman.
He is still a male. Just one who is insane.
An insane male.

I will throw you to the lions.

Here is what the reverend Chat GPT has to say.

Is endurance in that faith in Jesus necessary or can we fall into unbelief and still be saved? Please use only the New Testament.

ChatGPT said:

That’s a profound and crucial question—one that the New Testament takes very seriously. Let's explore it honestly and clearly using only New Testament passages.
1. Faith is the Means of Salvation
We start here because the New Testament is clear:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith."
— Ephesians 2:8​

"Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."
— John 3:16​

So faith is the means by which we receive grace. But the question you're raising is what if we stop believing—what then?
2. Endurance Is Repeatedly Commanded
The New Testament strongly emphasizes continuing in the faith—not just starting in it.

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."
— Matthew 24:13​

"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."
— Hebrews 3:14​

This implies a conditional relationship: sharing in Christ depends on continuing in faith, not abandoning it.
3. Warnings Against Falling Away
Hebrews especially issues strong warnings:

"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."
— Hebrews 3:12​

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."
— Hebrews 10:26​

"It is impossible... if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance..."
— Hebrews 6:4–6​

These are sobering verses that indicate the real danger of falling into unbelief after once believing.
4. Faith Must Be Maintained
Paul uses language like:

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."
— 2 Timothy 4:7​

And instructs:

"Continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel."
— Colossians 1:23​

If salvation were secure regardless of faith, there would be no need to warn believers to "keep the faith."
5. Examples of Shipwrecked Faith
Paul mentions individuals who once believed but departed:

"By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander."
— 1 Timothy 1:19–20​

He even says:

"Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me."
— 2 Timothy 4:10​

These are not unbelievers from the start—they departed from something they once held.
6. But What About God's Faithfulness?
Yes, God is faithful—but His faithfulness doesn't override human will:

"If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us."
— 2 Timothy 2:12​

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself."
— 2 Timothy 2:13​

This last verse is sometimes taken to mean God saves us even if we stop believing, but in context, it more likely means He remains faithful to His word, including His promises and His warnings.
7. Summary
According to the New Testament:

• Faith saves — always and only by grace.
• But faith must endure—because…
• A believer can fall away through unbelief.
• Those who endure to the end will be saved.

So to your question—can we fall into unbelief and still be saved?—the New Testament seems to say no. Salvation is never earned, but faith is the living connection to Christ. Without it, we are cut off.

 

[Genez]

I will throw you to the lions.

Here is what the reverend Chat GPT has to say.

Is endurance in that faith in Jesus necessary or can we fall into unbelief and still be saved? Please use only the New Testament.

ChatGPT said:

That’s a profound and crucial question—one that the New Testament takes very seriously. Let's explore it honestly and clearly using only New Testament passages.
1. Faith is the Means of Salvation
We start here because the New Testament is clear:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith."​

— Ephesians 2:8​

"Whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."​

— John 3:16​

So faith is the means by which we receive grace. But the question you're raising is what if we stop believing—what then?
2. Endurance Is Repeatedly Commanded
The New Testament strongly emphasizes continuing in the faith—not just starting in it.

"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."​

— Matthew 24:13​

"We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original confidence firm to the end."​

— Hebrews 3:14​

This implies a conditional relationship: sharing in Christ depends on continuing in faith, not abandoning it.
3. Warnings Against Falling Away
Hebrews especially issues strong warnings:

"Take care, brothers, lest there be in any of you an evil, unbelieving heart, leading you to fall away from the living God."​

— Hebrews 3:12​

"For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins."​

— Hebrews 10:26​

"It is impossible... if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance..."​

— Hebrews 6:4–6​

These are sobering verses that indicate the real danger of falling into unbelief after once believing.
4. Faith Must Be Maintained
Paul uses language like:

"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."​

— 2 Timothy 4:7​

And instructs:

"Continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel."​

— Colossians 1:23​

If salvation were secure regardless of faith, there would be no need to warn believers to "keep the faith."
5. Examples of Shipwrecked Faith
Paul mentions individuals who once believed but departed:

"By rejecting this, some have made shipwreck of their faith, among whom are Hymenaeus and Alexander."​

— 1 Timothy 1:19–20​

He even says:

"Demas, having loved this present world, has deserted me."​

— 2 Timothy 4:10​

These are not unbelievers from the start—they departed from something they once held.
6. But What About God's Faithfulness?
Yes, God is faithful—but His faithfulness doesn't override human will:

"If we endure, we will also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us."​

— 2 Timothy 2:12​

"If we are faithless, he remains faithful—for he cannot deny himself."​

— 2 Timothy 2:13​

This last verse is sometimes taken to mean God saves us even if we stop believing, but in context, it more likely means He remains faithful to His word, including His promises and His warnings.
7. Summary
According to the New Testament:

• Faith saves — always and only by grace.
• But faith must endure—because…
• A believer can fall away through unbelief.
• Those who endure to the end will be saved.

So to your question—can we fall into unbelief and still be saved?—the New Testament seems to say no. Salvation is never earned, but faith is the living connection to Christ. Without it, we are cut off.

That was rude.

Now could anyone who is sane, try to address that wall of conflctions?

Try a point at a time?
You know?
Like one does when wanting to have a normal conversation?

You jumped all over thye place, and too many were misconceptions that were dogmatically misapplied.

 

[Magenta]

Looking back, one of the main issues I have with systematic teaching is that it really doesn't teach us to think for ourselves
apart from the presuppositions that we've received and have thus structured our thinking. It can take a lot of work to unwind
some of that structure if/when we find it to be wrong. Also, there are many who sit faithfully year after year and learn 'doctrine"
but don't learn the Bible. That seems to be more a problem with the hearers than the teacher.

Do you really fail to see yourself in what you write??? It's always so odd you going on and on about needing to
accept what the Bible says when you yourself remove great swaths of it in order to cling to your false doctrine.

"Free will" in the Bible? ~ Freedom is something believers are called to (Galatians 5:13). We need Jesus to “set us free” (Galatians 5:1). If Jesus has not freed us from the bondage of sin, then we are still slaves to sin (Romans 6:6-7). Freedom is found in the presence of the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17). Only Jesus can give us true freedom (John 8:36). Only through His lovingkindness can we truly make choices unfettered by a nature that is inherently hostile toward God.

So faith is the means by which we receive grace.

Chat GPT sure failed big time there.

 

[Genez]

Looking back, one of the main issues I have with systematic teaching is that it really doesn't teach us to think for ourselves.

It can't! It was never intended to do it that way.

Now, if you desire to think for yourself?

Systematic teaching (when it is well done) merely gives us needed building materials to be used later to construct our own thoughts with what we and the Holy Spirit work out together.

 

[GWH]

Understood. I've been encountering many of late who could have benefitted from a teacher who would have taught them how to stand on their own two feet in the Faith. He certainly worked hard at that goal.

Looking back, one of the main issues I have with systematic teaching is that it really doesn't teach us to think for ourselves apart from the presuppositions that we've received and have thus structured our thinking. It can take a lot of work to unwind some of that structure if/when we find it to be wrong. Also, there are many who sit faithfully year after year and learn 'doctrine" but don't learn the Bible. That seems to be more a problem with the hearers than the teacher.

Yes but I prefer to say that dogmatic teaching is the problem rather than systematic study of Scripture.

 

[studier]

This was about 20-25 years ago. I recruited a couple of friends and we continued the Bible study for over two years. It laid a solid foundation for me. I taught a Sunday school class of older men and a Bible study class for a number of years. Applying Biblical principals to ones everyday life should be the ultimate goal of any Bible study. I learned that life is about relationships, and unless we get the one with God right, none of our other relationships will work as they should.

Did you learn to study for yourself as was the premise stated by the teacher?

 

[GWH]

Some big assumptions here. Everybody seems to think they're working with God's approval or the Spirit's leading. If they are, then He has a lot of human beings being taught a lot of different and conflicting things. The hearers seem to be learning various traditions well, yet I frequently notice how they will walk away from serious focused discussion on Scripture.

Hopefully the conflicts and differences are regarding didachaic or secondary doctrines rather than the essential or kerygmatic creed.

 

[studier]

The Holy Spirit is to be our guide to lead us into all the truth that God requires for our life.
Only the humble will eventually find what will satisfy.
Others, led by their emotions and human curiosity, will never find what it is they thought they were looking for.

When someone is led of the Spirit, he may at some point find himself having found what he may have not known to look for.

So, again, is the Holy Spirit guiding people into teaching opposing interpretive traditions and guiding people to sit under those opposing traditions and then fight against one another in promoting and protecting those opposing traditions? Are we the humble and those who disagree with us the arrogant and in reality, the unled? Is our satisfaction the guide?

 

[GWH]

Nice to see that you noticed that also.

I know EXACTLY what you teach and believe. Nothing hidden. Straight forward. Take it or leave it.

99% of the rest here........try to ride the fence. And It shows up when you push them...even a little bit.

The problem with some of us is that we are at the stage of forgetting some percentage of what we believe (which I solved by writing it in the website :^)

 

[GWH]

Mark 16 says Jesus commanded his disciples to baptise and then commanded his disciples to teach others to do everything He had commanded them, which would logically include baptising converts. And the book of Acts chronicles those disciples baptising new believers. Where do you see a contradiction between Mark 16 and the rest of scripture?

The rest of GW says sinners are saved by faith (repentance/seeking/receiving the HS), not by works such as physical circumcision or WB.

 

[GWH]

Sheep do not turn into goats.

There are goats in sheep's clothing who might tag along with the sheep to see what is happening.
But will, eventually, remove himself from the sheep... never having been one.

And there must be sheep who can remove themselves from the sheep but remain a sheep having been one.
(Sheesh!)

 

[GWH]

The Holy Spirit is to be our guide to lead us into all the truth that God requires for our life.
Only the humble will eventually find what will satisfy.
Others, led by their emotions and human curiosity, will never find what it is they thought they were looking for.

When someone is led of the Spirit, he may at some point find himself having found what he may have not known to look for.

Yes but all other truth must not contradict the Gospel truth that God revealed in the NT.

 

[studier]

He taught with such great detail with substance that he gave us doctrinal thinking material to make us able to think for ourselves.

Looking back, one of the main issues I have with systematic teaching is that it really doesn't teach us to think for ourselves apart from the presuppositions that we've received and have thus structured our thinking.

It can't! It was never intended to do it that way.

Now, if you desire to think for yourself?

Systematic teaching (when it is well done) merely gives us needed building materials to be used later to construct our own thoughts with what we and the Holy Spirit work out together.

I'm not sure I understand the first 2 parts of your response. Maybe it's not necessary to.

The "building materials to be used later to construct our own thoughts" I suppose is the "doctrinal thinking material to make us think for ourselves." This is the "systematic teaching" I was referring to. I should have retained your terminology of "doctrinal thinking" to be consistent.

So, the doctrinal thinking is the presupposition(s) we've received that have structured our thinking.

So, now our thinking is structured on a free grace dispensational systematic tradition, and we are in opposition to every other systematic tradition, and we think we can think for ourselves. Additionally, we view Scripture according to that tradition and thus in conflict with the ways other traditions view those same Scriptures. All the while we have really not been taught to read and analyze Scripture and think for ourselves according to Scripture, but according to a tradition's view of Scripture. Then we come onto forums and argue our traditions-based interpretations of Scripture and bail out if someone will want to focus in on really looking at Scripture in context.

Maybe you'll get the gist of what I'm attempting to communicate. This is why I just asked @Sipsey about the teacher who stated he wanted them to "learn to study for yourself." It's also why I'm enjoying @Beckworth on this thread, who is foundationally just looking at Scripture and saying what it says and doesn't say.

I can tell you that this entire approach has been exacerbated to the point where seminaries are training those in the pulpits in the same fashion and quite some time ago were slowing down and even ceasing teaching them the languages so they could continue their own work in the Text.

It seems to take the Ekklesia an awful long time to resolve problems. IMO we have a big problem.

 

[studier]

the reverend Chat GPT

That's a potentially big problem. I guess we'll see because it's obviously the next phase for many.

Interesting data and conclusion though.

 

[In3dee]

I will throw you to the lions.

Here is what the reverend Chat GPT has to say.

I didn't even bother to read the rest...... it's unnerving that folks are looking to a computer for answers about Godly things.

​

​

 

[studier]

That was rude.

Now could anyone who is sane, try to address that wall of conflctions?

Try a point at a time?
You know?
Like one does when wanting to have a normal conversation?

You jumped all over thye place, and too many were misconceptions that were dogmatically misapplied.

Such as? How about one point at a time - one Scripture at a time?

cc: @Inquisitor

 

[studier]

Yes but I prefer to say that dogmatic teaching is the problem rather than systematic study of Scripture.

I guess we should define "systematic" because each tradition essentially has their own system - systematic. On the other hand, I think Scripture is dogmatic.

 

[studier]

Hopefully the conflicts and differences are regarding didachaic or secondary doctrines rather than the essential or kerygmatic creed.

One of the issues is technical language. You might need to speak simple English.

Is loss of salvation a didachaic doctrine?

In this day I'm not even sure there is consensus on the kerygma.

 

[studier]

The problem with some of us is that we are at the stage of forgetting some percentage of what we believe (which I solved by writing it in the website :^)

Some of that forgetting along the way was intentional shedding of tradition to facilitate seeing Scripture more clearly.