Not By Works

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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Romans 9:16 easily refutes this.
I disagree

It is the will of God that whoever believes in the son will be given eternal life, and be raised on thge last day (john 6)

I can not will myself to heaven, God willed me to heaven, by providing the means for me to get there. All I did was trust his will. And not my will
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, exactly. You take care of it BECAUSE HE ALREADY GAVE IT TO YOU.

Not so, you can prove that you deserved the house in the first place.

If you had to prove you deserved it, it was never yours to begin with, it was still the givers. Thus it was not a gift, it was a payment for services he expects.
 
P

PHart

Guest
....God deals with his children through chastisement...not casting them away....
Exactly! That's how we know these sanctified people who go back to the world are no longer sons of God. They are to be cast away with the enemies of God:


"26For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES." (Hebrews 10: NASB)


If they were still sanctified sons of God they would not be subject to the wrath of God for his enemies. Vs. 26 plainly says the sacrifice for sin does not remain for them. They lose it, so they won't be protected from the wrath of God at the Judgment but can instead only look forward to the wrath of God in damnation of the enemies of God.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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Believe what you want about holding on, but you're so clearly in defiance of these plainly worded passages that I can't believe you would be so dogmatic about your view:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

"
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

"
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

"
9Anyone who goes too far (thrusting the word of the gospel behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NASB)




...through faith, your continued believing. You keep leaving the last part of Peter's quote off:
"an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)


You have the sure and unshakable promise of deliverance on the Day of Salvation through your continued believing.




The wonder is how Christians can call their believing and trusting in Christ a 'working for' dogma. But that is the sad place at which the church has come to in these end times.



I don't belong to a denomination. I read my Bible like a Berean and form my doctrine that way. I accept any denomination's belief, any doctrine, that lines up with the Bible. If part of something a particular church or movement says is true, I accept it and toss out whatever is not true. So I'm not denominational.

God taught me a long time ago that what counts is that you walk in the fruit of the Spirit. That's what this is ALL about (Galatians 5:6 NIV). Christianity isn't about gathering accurate doctrine for the sake of possessing accurate doctrine. Accurate doctrine is a means to an end--to be Christ-like. OSAS is a convenient doctrine to rationalize sin and not move on to maturity in Christ and be saved on the Day of Wrath. OSASer's think they are doing a service to God by pushing that belief system as the ultimate grace of God, but any teaching that does not lead people to grow up into Christ is no service to God. A license to sin is not the grace of God. It is entirely against and opposed to the grace of God.
No worries...I will continue to believe that salvation is eternal and based upon the power of God to keep me there....you on the other hand undermine the work of Jesus and insert yourself and your ability = a works based false gospel....so when you stand before JESUS you can boast of how you kept yourself saved....ME....I will praise JESUS for his work on my behalf....good luck.....
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yes, the sanctification that you receive when you believe in the gospel does not have to be redone. It lasts forever. That's why we are exhorted to hang onto it. It can't fail.

The perfected forever means nothing?

 
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UnderGrace

Guest
OSAS is a convenient doctrine to rationalize sin and not move on to maturity in Christ and be saved on the Day of Wrath. OSASer's think they are doing a service to God by pushing that belief system as the ultimate grace of God, but any teaching that does not lead people to grow up into Christ is no service to God. A license to sin is not the grace of God. It is entirely against and opposed to the grace of God

Making sweeping generalizations does not help your case

False teachers exist everywhere even perverting the doctrine of grace, but I have yet to read one person here on this message board say sin all you want

You do know that the grace of God teaches us to say no to sin, so how does what you say make any sense?

12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Titus 2:12


Believe what you want about holding on, but you're so clearly in defiance of these plainly worded passages that I can't believe you would be so dogmatic about your view:

"23Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful" (Hebrews 10:23 NASB)

"you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you" (1 Corinthians 15:2 NASB)

"
24As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father." (1 John 2:24 NASB)

"He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach—
23if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard" (Colossians 1:22-23 NASB)

"Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end." (Hebrews 3:6 NASB)

"
14For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end" (Hebrews 3:14 NASB)

"
9Anyone who goes too far (thrusting the word of the gospel behind them) and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son." (2 John 1:9 NASB)

"
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off." (Romans 11:22 NASB)




...through faith, your continued believing. You keep leaving the last part of Peter's quote off:
"an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." (1 Peter 1:4-5 NASB)


You have the sure and unshakable promise of deliverance on the Day of Salvation through your continued believing.




The wonder is how Christians can call their believing and trusting in Christ a 'working for' dogma. But that is the sad place at which the church has come to in these end times.



I don't belong to a denomination. I read my Bible like a Berean and form my doctrine that way. I accept any denomination's belief, any doctrine, that lines up with the Bible. If part of something a particular church or movement says is true, I accept it and toss out whatever is not true. So I'm not denominational.

God taught me a long time ago that what counts is that you walk in the fruit of the Spirit. That's what this is ALL about (Galatians 5:6 NIV). Christianity isn't about gathering accurate doctrine for the sake of possessing accurate doctrine. Accurate doctrine is a means to an end--to be Christ-like. OSAS is a convenient doctrine to rationalize sin and not move on to maturity in Christ and be saved on the Day of Wrath. OSASer's think they are doing a service to God by pushing that belief system as the ultimate grace of God, but any teaching that does not lead people to grow up into Christ is no service to God. A license to sin is not the grace of God. It is entirely against and opposed to the grace of God.
 
Dec 12, 2013
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20,401
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Making sweeping generalizations does not help your case

False teachers exist everywhere even perverting the doctrine of grace, but I have yet to read one person here on this message board say sin all you want

You do know that the grace of God teaches us to say no to sin, so how does what you say make any sense?

12It instructs us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live sensible, upright, and godly lives in the present age,
Titus 2:12
It doesn't...it is just another go to phrase used by those who can lose salvation to keep the drones inline with their dogmatic belief that one must keep himself secure.....kind of like the false denominations that push a vanilla café blend church salvation....if your not this or that you are lost and will burn....just more bondage pushed by Satan wrapped in some nice new shiny wrapping paper with a bow on top....
 
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PHart

Guest
I know I have received eternal life..
If you believe, you have indeed received the life that is eternal. That's not in debate. What is in debate is whether or not you will continue to believe and retain the life that is eternal.



..emphasis on eternal being just that!! :)
If I gave you a car that runs forever does that mean it can't be a car that runs forever if you don't keep that car? Of course not. It continues to be a car that runs forever even if you no longer possess it. It's just that you yourself do not possess the car that runs forever anymore. Ditto for eternal life. It is indeed eternal, the question is, are you going to hang onto the life that never ends by continuing to believe? It doesn't become disqualified as being eternal just because it's possible for a person to no longer possess the life that is eternal.



Just would like Phart to clarify so that perhaps he can see that that how he is defining the words is not the scriptural definition
I shared the very scriptures that show us faith is a 'thing', not a doing. 'Believing' is what you do in response to the faith you have received that shows us the gospel is true. Surely you have used the phrase, 'the faith to believe'. That illustrates the difference between the two. Faith enables us to then believe. Most people reject faith, the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and choose to not believe in that which faith has shown them to be true.

Faith is simply knowing the gospel is true. Even the demons know the gospel is true! But it is believing in what you know to be true that saves. But so many people take false comfort in simply knowing the gospel is true but not actually trusting in it as evidenced by a change in their character. Correct doctrine never saved a soul. Only believing in what is correct saves.

Until you realize the difference between 'faith'--the knowing that something is true, and the 'believing' that one then must then do in response to knowing the gospel is true, you will not get this.
 
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PHart

Guest
The perfected forever means nothing?

You need to be open to the fact there are others ways to see things that are still true, nonetheless. You'll grow spiritually leaps and bounds when you can open up this way.

You can still be truly perfected forever, not requiring any further sacrifice to attain perfection, but still be able to lose that which makes it so you do not need any additional sacrifices for perfection.

Hebrews 7:25 shows us that Christ must continue in his ministry for you to be perfected without future need of perfection before the Father. So we know he isn't talking about being perfected forever in regard to not being able to later be not perfected forever. That's why you and I must continue to believe in the sacrifice that makes us forever perfect. We don't need another sacrifice made on our behalf to be forever perfect, legally speaking, before the Father in heaven. That's why we need to hang onto the one-time for all time sacrifice and Christ's Priesthood through our continued believing in that sacrifice.
 
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PHart

Guest
Christ's one-time for all time sacrifice makes it so you do not need to offer up a new sacrifice for new sin as you did in the old system of sacrifice. That's what it means to be perfect forever, legally speaking, before God in heaven by the sacrifice of Christ. It does not mean you can not lose the one-time perfection Christ's sacrifice gives no matter what. It means it never runs out of the power to make you perfect before God. That's why we must continue to trust in that sacrifice. We lose it's one-time for all time power to make perfect if we stop trusting in it.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
I will deal with the faith and belief separately hopefully if I have the time

I will say that I think your analogy is faulty is with regards to eternal life and what the word "eternal" means

But let me ask you this to demonstrate,

Can you return the gift of death?

Is that within your power?


If you believe, you have indeed received the life that is eternal. That's not in debate. What is in debate is whether or not you will continue to believe and retain the life that is eternal.




If I gave you a car that runs forever does that mean it can't be a car that runs forever if you don't keep that car? Of course not. It continues to be a car that runs forever even if you no longer possess it. It's just that you yourself do not possess the car that runs forever anymore. Ditto for eternal life. It is indeed eternal, the question is, are you going to hang onto the life that never ends by continuing to believe? It doesn't become disqualified as being eternal just because it's possible for a person to no longer possess the life that is eternal.




I shared the very scriptures that show us faith is a 'thing', not a doing. 'Believing' is what you do in response to the faith you have received that shows us the gospel is true. Surely you have used the phrase, 'the faith to believe'. That illustrates the difference between the two. Faith enables us to then believe. Most people reject faith, the testimony of the Holy Spirit, and choose to not believe in that which faith has shown them to be true.

Faith is simply knowing the gospel is true. Even the demons know the gospel is true! But it is believing in what you know to be true that saves. But so many people take false comfort in simply knowing the gospel is true but not actually trusting in it as evidenced by a change in their character. Correct doctrine never saved a soul. Only believing in what is correct saves.

Until you realize the difference between 'faith'--the knowing that something is true, and the 'believing' that one then must then do in response to knowing the gospel is true, you will not get this.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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We choose to believe and make Jesus the object of our faith, I agree it is not our choice that causes salvation,

it is Jesus who gives the gift of salvation,

it is His response, to our belief, on His work on the cross on our behalf.
This is an example of were we agree.
We respond but God is saving us.

This is why I feel some desire division where there is none, and generate antagonism where
we have none.

Most honest people in ministry know people vary in faith and some drift away, some grow
brightly and fade, while others continue to grow and walk.

Now I want to encourage all who seek the Lord as brothers and sisters, but also recognise
the reality in some lives. I am not the judge, but Gods promises are to the faithful.

An eternal promise can be void if the conditions are broken. Believe and ..... is a conditional
statement on continuing belief, not a flash in the pan. We are talking here total life transformation
not a hobby, part time, if you can be bothered. God is good, if you see it.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
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1,829
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Walk free in the light as He is in the light. Walking with Jesus is never work.

And Peter Jens...

Blood covers, blood purges. There's your cleaning. The Word washes over as water...but blood purges.
 
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PHart

Guest
I will say that I think your analogy is faulty is with regards to eternal life and what the word "eternal" means

But let me ask you this to demonstrate,

Can you return the gift of death?

Is that within your power?
Problem: Death is earned, it's not a gift. It's the just payment deserved and merited for sin. Paul explains this thoroughly.

Got's to get some stuff today. Out for now, folks.
 
Feb 24, 2015
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You need to be open to the fact there are others ways to see things that are still true, nonetheless. You'll grow spiritually leaps and bounds when you can open up this way.

You can still be truly perfected forever, not requiring any further sacrifice to attain perfection, but still be able to lose that which makes it so you do not need any additional sacrifices for perfection.

Hebrews 7:25 shows us that Christ must continue in his ministry for you to be perfected without future need of perfection before the Father. So we know he isn't talking about being perfected forever in regard to not being able to later be not perfected forever. That's why you and I must continue to believe in the sacrifice that makes us forever perfect. We don't need another sacrifice made on our behalf to be forever perfect, legally speaking, before the Father in heaven. That's why we need to hang onto the one-time for all time sacrifice and Christ's Priesthood through our continued believing in that sacrifice.
Amen.

In all eternity, as created beings we will forever be learning, because we are not God.
Change is not a part of evil becoming good, but situations changing, needs adjusting,
roles growing. You can know one way of looking at something that is fine, then another..
Both are perfect, but involve perfecting experience. It would be truly boring if existence
is just a repeat.
 
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UnderGrace

Guest
Our choice to believe upon Jesus as Saviour (personal) has eternal consequences/promises/benefits which are declared by God,

so I disagree with the part of what you are saying that we can fall away from salvation

In the same way, I tell you that there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous ones who do not need to repent.

Luke 15:7


Why would God loose any that come to Him accepting Jesus as Saviour?

Do you know how much God loves us...

His perfect plan has made it so that nothing can snatch us away not even ourselves because He has made the declaration that we are righteous by Christ within us

For us to lose salvation is for Christ to become unrighteous in us Not possible!!!



This is an example of were we agree.
We respond but God is saving us.

This is why I feel some desire division where there is none, and generate antagonism where
we have none.

Most honest people in ministry know people vary in faith and some drift away, some grow
brightly and fade, while others continue to grow and walk.

Now I want to encourage all who seek the Lord as brothers and sisters, but also recognise
the reality in some lives. I am not the judge, but Gods promises are to the faithful.

An eternal promise can be void if the conditions are broken. Believe and ..... is a conditional
statement on continuing belief, not a flash in the pan. We are talking here total life transformation
not a hobby, part time, if you can be bothered. God is good, if you see it.
 
Feb 24, 2015
13,204
168
0
It doesn't...it is just another go to phrase used by those who can lose salvation to keep the drones inline with their dogmatic belief that one must keep himself secure.....kind of like the false denominations that push a vanilla café blend church salvation....if your not this or that you are lost and will burn....just more bondage pushed by Satan wrapped in some nice new shiny wrapping paper with a bow on top....
So you are describing your approach here, right.
I am happy to call you brother if stop condemning believers and showing such animosity
which comes from a root of bitterness. It is sinful and destroys your testimony.

The bondage some preach are rules without the cross and love. I know in part how destructive
this can be for some, but it is their hearts that is the problem not their theology.

Many here have talked of love but promoted such evil and condemnation it destroys the wonder
of the cross. It is the root of hurt and defence that I know well, but God is glorious and can bring
victory, if honesty and openness can be reached. Will you go there in faith with Christ?

It means giving up our understanding of Church, and following the word and love.
Oddly this empowers everything, but we must start the right way round, God bless you.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
9,012
4,429
113
Amen.

In all eternity, as created beings we will forever be learning, because we are not God.
Change is not a part of evil becoming good, but situations changing, needs adjusting,
roles growing. You can know one way of looking at something that is fine, then another..
Both are perfect, but involve perfecting experience. It would be truly boring if existence
is just a repeat.
Hi PJ,

I hope all is well with you.

Yes we will be forever learning and if we ever get to stage where we think we know it all then that is a very dangerous place to be in.

Isaiah 55:8-9
8 “For My thoughts are not your thoughts,
Nor are your ways My ways,” says the Lord.
9 “For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
So are My ways higher than your ways,
And My thoughts than your thoughts.

The biggest problem I encounter with change is the fear of change itself.
As we say over here "Better the devil you know than the devil you don't know"

Resistance to change can be a defence mechanism. Everything we believe in or walk in has to be undone, paradigms have to be shifted and replaced.

The mind has to be renewed.

Thank God he brings about change and works good in all things towards his children.
 

stonesoffire

Poetic Member
Nov 24, 2013
10,665
1,829
113
If I gave you a car that runs forever does that mean it can't be a car that runs forever if you don't keep that car? Of course not. It continues to be a car that runs forever even if you no longer possess it. It's just that you yourself do not possess the car that runs forever anymore. Ditto for eternal life. It is indeed eternal, the question is, are you going to hang onto the life that never ends by continuing to believe? It doesn't become disqualified as being eternal just because it's possible for a person to no longer possess the life that is eternal
A car subject to corruption by rust and other worldly" influence....cannot be compared to the uncorruptible, incorruptible...seed that is living and active in Spirit from heaven....otherworldly...can it?

NO!

Sealing is done when the King stamps His approval....and we begin to grow as one from heaven....not from earth. Spiritual.

Then we rule over soul and body...hence the active washing of the Word on our soul that needs saved...but Spirit rules.

But, we grow when we first sit. And we live from the inside out. Not as this world.
 
Sep 12, 2017
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This is just pure dogmatic rhetoric in every negative sense of the phrase. It's amazing that you are so closed off to any discussion about this subject that you can't even hear what I've said repeatedly about all these things you listed but simply choose to reject it without explanation. But I know this happens. Christians really do get closed off in their own little doctrinal constructs and won't so much as listen to anything else. I understand that completely. So be it.
This thread is an actual manifestation of Acts 7.