Not By Works

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TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
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This morning devotion: Obedience or discipline. It will be one or the other.
Hi Star, just wondering is it not possible we can apply both to our life, instead of one or the other? Just wanted to know your point of view.

God bless
 

Studyman

Senior Member
Oct 11, 2017
3,570
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Some people are unable to make the complete transition from the old covenant into the new covenant and continue to stumble over the OT Law (and may even mix the old covenant with the new covenant) but in their minds, they believe they have obeyed the Master by sufficiently obeying all of the Law/Commandments (with a heavy emphasis on keeping the Sabbath day) and will receive eternal life based on those terms. We've heard all the sugar coated double talk from SDA's, those in the Hebrew Roots movement and other misguided teachers of the law in general on CC before and the end result is always the same -- "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." Subtle mixture of law and grace which is a perversion of the gospel. :(
Your description of the "New Covenant" and the Master that created the New Covenant's version are two different things. You have been shown His Word's defining just what the New covenant is and you reject them.

This is nothing new with religious men. But I still have hope that you will someday choose God's Word's over your own.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Hi Star, just wondering is it not possible we can apply both to our life, instead of one or the other? Just wanted to know your point of view.

God bless
our Heavenly Father doesn't discipline us because we obey perfectly

He chastens us because we do not


both definitely apply to our lifes as new creatures with new desires and affections with a new heart that wants righteousness.....


but we still reside in our fallen sinful flesh.... which wants its own pleasure



we can obey... through walking in the spirit

or we will recieve discipline...
for acting out according to the flesh


it is one or the other in that sense


(right star?)
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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so redeeming the firstborn?
where do you take sacrifices?
this isn't done for atonement.

I can't see a justification for ignoring sacrifices and offerings, clearly spelled out, and not keeping them exactly as the letter says, if your stance is 'not one jot or tittle' - - - this position of yours doesn't even remove the demand of sin offerings, because those too are jots and are tittles.

you have to break the Law apart ((to think you can)) in an unjustifiable way in order to make yourself under it and think it doesn't completely condemn you.
Ahh yes, you see in your quest to find fault/ignor the Law you have forgotten a vital thing that I already mentioned... That Law was mediated by the priesthood, in temple times by a human Levite priesthood, since Yahshua is High Priest now I am fully confident He can handle all priestly duties.

Hebrews 7:24-25,"but He, because He remains forever, has an unchangeable priesthood. Therefore He is also able to save completely those who draw near to יהוה through Him, ever living to make intercession for them."

your only hope is if it is lifted from you. for example if you were to die, and so no longer be under its power. otherwise you are telling me that all believers are willfully continuing in sin, and there is no salvation.
"ever living to make intercession for them."
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
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What version are you reading that uses the term, "the Son of Elohim"? That is interesting to me. Who do you think Elohim is?
TSR The Scriptures. In the original Hebrew it says "ben(e) ha Elohim" or "sons o Elohim"
 

Shamah

Senior Member
Jan 6, 2018
2,735
692
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Some people are unable to make the complete transition from the old covenant into the new covenant and continue to stumble over the OT Law (and may even mix the old covenant with the new covenant) but in their minds, they believe they have obeyed the Master by sufficiently obeying all of the Law/Commandments (with a heavy emphasis on keeping the Sabbath day) and will receive eternal life based on those terms. We've heard all the sugar coated double talk from SDA's, those in the Hebrew Roots movement and other misguided teachers of the law in general on CC before and the end result is always the same -- "salvation by grace plus law, faith plus works." Subtle mixture of law and grace which is a perversion of the gospel. :(
Ohh the mixture!

Revelation 12:17, “And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to fight with the remnant of her seed, those guarding the Commands of יהוה and possessing the Witness of יהושע Messiah."

Isayah 8:20, "To the Law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Mat 5:18, "I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh; the smallest of the letters will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."

Revelation 21:1, "I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away."

Heaven and earth still here? then either the Law is also valid or you need to tell the Messiah He is wrong!!!

and most poeple go with tradition rather than let the Scriptures teach them:

The Covenant stands fast with the Messiah:

Psalm 89:26-37, “He will call out to Me; ‘You are My Father, O YHWH! You are the Rock of My salvation!’ And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish His Seed forever, and His throne will be as the days of heaven. Should His children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from Him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness, I cannot lie, and I say to David; His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky.”

Psalm 105:6-9, "O seed of Abraham His servant, You children of Yaaqob, His chosen ones! He is YHWH our Father! His judgments are in all the earth. He has remembered His covenant forever, the Law He commanded for a thousand generations; Which He made; ratified, established, with Abraham, and vowed by His oath to Isaac. He confirmed it; let it stand, to Yaaqob for a Law, and to Israyl for an everlasting covenant."

Jeremiah 31:33, "For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israyl: After those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law (Torah/Instructions) in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts, and I will be their Strength, and they will be My people."

Hebrews 10:16, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says YHWH: I will put My Law into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,673
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God only disciplines those who are his for a reason.

Hebrews 12:5-10
Endure God’s Loving Discipline
5 And have you forgotten the encouraging words God spoke to you as his children? He said,
“My child, don’t make light of the Lord’s discipline,
and don’t give up when he corrects you.
6 For the Lord disciplines those he loves,
and he punishes each one he accepts as his child.”
7 As you endure this divine discipline, remember that God is treating you as his own children. Who ever heard of a child who is never disciplined by its father? 8 If God doesn’t discipline you as he does all of his children, it means that you are illegitimate and are not really his children at all. 9 Since we respected our earthly fathers who disciplined us, shouldn’t we submit even more to the discipline of the Father of our spirits, and live forever?
10 For our earthly fathers disciplined us for a few years, doing the best they knew how. But God’s discipline is always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.

Firstly his discipline is devine and loving.
It's not a beating and a smack up.

It is for our good, as verse 10 says it always good for us, so that we might share in his holiness.

Being disciplined confirms the father loves us. V6
It shows we belong to the Father. V7

V10 our Fathers disciplined as they knew best. But they do not always discipline in the best way, yet God does.

His discipline is out of love for reproof, correction in order for us to become more like Jesus.

So with that in mind I would like to post the following.

Romans 8:28-29
28 And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose. 29 For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

So is it possible that God works good in us through discipline to conform us to the image of Jesus (V10 from Hebrews)

The key here is, “all things.” Many things are good things; but some things are bad things.

Things happen when we are disobedient, not good things concerning the kingdom but God says he will work good in all things.

I think he works in us as a result of our disobedience in order to conform us to the image of Jesus. Yes it may be hard, it may hurt, we me suffer temporal consequences.
That is what he works in for those who are his and those he loves.

Proverbs 3:11-12
11 My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord,
Nor detest His correction;
12 For whom the Lord loves He corrects,
Just as a father the son in whom he delights.
 

BillG

Senior Member
Feb 15, 2017
7,673
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but still a sin not to wear tzitzit? wickedness?
Of course it is. Anything that is against His Instructions is sin...
I have no idea what tzitzit is so I don't wear one
So are you saying because I dont then I am sinning?
And if I never wear one before I die then I'm condemned?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
I have no idea what tzitzit is so I don't wear one
So are you saying because I dont then I am sinning?
And if I never wear one before I die then I'm condemned?
lol

its a hebrew tradition

something like a tassle you would have on your shirt if i heard correctly
 

Lillywolf

Well-known member
Aug 29, 2018
1,562
538
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I have no idea what tzitzit is so I don't wear one
So are you saying because I dont then I am sinning?
And if I never wear one before I die then I'm condemned?
I think they're pulling your leg. A tzitzit is the tassel that adorns the religious garb of a Hebrew male.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
to those who say God will cast His own out (which He said He never would)


how do you explain the fact Gods gifts are without repentance?


and to those who say a man throws the gift away himself..... how do you explain the fact we are not kept by the will of man and that no one will remove us from His hand?





never got an answer to this one....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,671
19,492
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You are clearly WRONG dc.

You have forgotten the ongoing purpose for the LAW.


Romans 3:20 (HCSB)
20 For no one will be justified in His sight by the works of the law,
because the knowledge of sin ⌊comes⌋ through the law.


Romans 3:23-24 (HCSB)
23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.
24 They are justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.

Matthew 5:17-20 (HCSB)
17 “Don’t assume that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For I assure you: Until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or one stroke of a letter will pass from the law until all things are accomplished.
19 Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commands and teaches people to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever practices and teaches ⌊these commands⌋ will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.


The Law's primary Purpose will never be destroyed, as long as Sin is in this world. It is through that KNOWLEDGE of SIN, most people will seek a SAVIOR, and receive HIM as LORD of their lives, out of Pure LOVE for HIM.

The correct answer is A, because, only in the eternal state will sin be done away with, in the mortals of this world.
I suggest you read the word again and what I wrote....YOU just called JESUS a liar....he is the one that said the LAW and PROPHETS were UNTIL JOHN...take it up with him!

and PAY ATTENTION....I DID NOT SAY THE LAW was GONE......

Fairly clear D is the answer...........those who push the law have no understanding that it is for the LAWLESS who are LOST and it's purpose is to POINT TO THE CURE which is faith ins JESUS....
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
45,671
19,492
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Hi decon, this thread and myself would like to see a new reality show called, "Roughin' It, with Dave and Friends." Promoting our National Forests and learning how to lower your carbon foot print by, "Living Off the Grid", really
just kiddin' ya migo....:)
HAHAHHA well....I have done it successfully now for almost 7 years....... ;) Most could not deal with it......they love the world and the things of the world too much!
 

TruthTalk

Senior Member
Jul 17, 2017
2,904
2,259
113
our Heavenly Father doesn't discipline us because we obey perfectly

He chastens us because we do not


both definitely apply to our lifes as new creatures with new desires and affections with a new heart that wants righteousness.....


but we still reside in our fallen sinful flesh.... which wants its own pleasure



we can obey... through walking in the spirit

or we will recieve discipline...
for acting out according to the flesh


it is one or the other in that sense


(right star?)
Okay to you and or Star and thanks
 

Seohce

Senior Member
Jul 15, 2016
1,386
54
48
to those who say God will cast His own out (which He said He never would)


how do you explain the fact Gods gifts are without repentance?


and to those who say a man throws the gift away himself..... how do you explain the fact we are not kept by the will of man and that no one will remove us from His hand?





never got an answer to this one....
The Wise and Foolish Builders
46 “Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? 47 As for everyone who comes to me and hears my words and puts them into practice, I will show you what they are like. 48 They are like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid the foundation on rock. When a flood came, the torrent struck that house but could not shake it, because it was well built. 49 But the one who hears my words and does not put them into practice is like a man who built a house on the ground without a foundation. The moment the torrent struck that house, it collapsed and its destruction was complete.”

1 john 2
3 We know that we have come to know him if we keep his commands. 4 Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a LIAR, and the truth is not in that person. 5 But if anyone obeys his word,love for God is truly made complete in them. This is how we know we are in him:6 Whoever claims to live in him must live as Jesus did.

HOW CAN ANYONE BE IN GOD'S HANDS IF THEY ARE NOT IN CHRIST?

DON'T BE A LIAR BUT "FEAR GOD AND OBEY HIS COMMANDMENTS. (ecclesiastes 12:13)

revelations 21
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and ALL LIARS—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

LIKE ANANIAS AND SAPPHIRA, WHO AFTER ŔECEIVING THE HOLY SPIRIT THROUGH FAITH, LIED TO THE HOLY SPIRIT.

WILL THEY BE CONSIGNED TO THE FIERY LAKE OF BURNING SULFUR?



DOES THIS MAKE SENSE TO YOU?

3 “To the angel of the church in Sardiswrite:

These are the words of him who holds the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know your deeds; you have a reputation of being alive, but YOU ARE DEAD. 2 WAKE UP! Strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have found your deeds INCOMPLETE in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, therefore, what you have RECEIVED and HEARD; OBEY IWAKET, and REPENT. But if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what time I will come to you.


6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things COMETH THE WRATH OF .GOD ÙPON THE CHILDREN OF DISOBEDIENCE


MAN GOT SEPARATED FROM GOD BECAUSE OF THE SIN OF DISOBEDIENCE WHEN MAN WAS DECEIVED BY THE SERPENT WHO SAID THAT “...Ye shall not surely die.”(genesis 3:4)


DÈCEIVERS OF THIS AGE SAYS THE SAME THING;


“YE SHALL NOT SURELY DIE (PERIßH / BE CONDEMNED). ONCE YOU'RE SAVED, YOU ARE ALWAYS SAVED. JUST HAVE FAITH VOID OF WORKS (OF RIGHTEOUSNESS / ÒBEDIENCE) AND YOU WILL POSSESS ETERNAL LIFE THE MOMENT YOU BELIEVE.


For certain individuals whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are ungodly people, who pervert the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

OSAS AND FAS ARE FALSE MAN MADE DOCTRINES.

"GOD CANNOT BE MOCKED"

"LET GOD BE TRUE AND EVERY MAN A LIAR"
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
27,480
8,300
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lol

its a hebrew tradition

something like a tassle you would have on your shirt if i heard correctly

it's more than tradition, it's part of the Law -

The LORD also spoke to Moses, saying,
“Speak to the sons of Israel, and tell them that they shall make for themselves tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and that they shall put on the tassel of each corner a cord of blue. It shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the LORD, so as to do them and not follow after your own heart and your own eyes, after which you played the harlot, so that you may remember to do all My commandments and be holy to your God. I am the LORD your God who brought you out from the land of Egypt to be your God; I am the LORD your God.”
(Numbers 15:3-41)
this is given right after the man gathering wood on the sabbath, who was held to see what the LORD would instruct should be done with him, and then stoned to death by the entire congregation. just before that is the law of unintentional sin.