Not By Works

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

Hi gb9, I agree with you.

For some sitting having a cup of coffee is sinning, by just being human.
I would argue by not communing with the Lord and acknowledging who He is, is sinning.
I would also suggest not believing the cross is a statement that Christ transform us into His likeness is sinning.

And what would sinners who deny God and the power of the cross know of victory or righteousness?
When Jesus declares if we hunger and thirst for righteousness we will find it.

The motivation here is a belief that believing Jesus can make you righteous is sinful and dooms you to hell.
Except in their mind sin does not exist as all is forgiven, and the issue is just belief in Jesus.
But in this world where all sin is forgiven, whether you believe or not, belief in Jesus is not for the forgiveness
of sins, it is for eternal life.

And this eternal life is not shown in your life, it is shown when Jesus returns and you are written in the Lambs
book of life.

The sin being proposed here is believing Jesus does anything of value in us, and everything rests only on Him.
To suggest we have anything of value, in or outside of Christ is unbelief in Jesus in their eyes, and so anti-Christ.

It has all the hall-marks of faith, while denying everything.
And this is why it all falls apart, because it fruit is so extreme and so condemning. Jesus if He returned would be
condemned as a hypocrite and a liar. And for me that says it all.

Therefore, my brothers, I want you to know that through Jesus the forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you.
Through him everyone who believes is justified from everything you could not be justified from by the law of Moses.
Take care that what the prophets have said does not happen to you:
Acts 13:38-40

Paul is preaching that through Jesus we have the forgiveness of sins.
He is not preaching, oh you have also had your sins forgiven because of Jesus, so you do not need to repent of sin.

Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord,
and that he may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you--even Jesus.
Acts 3:19-20

Peter is preaching we need to repent and turn to God so that our sins may be wiped out.
Peter is not saying they have already been wiped out, but so that they will be wiped out.

What a great post.

I proffer that we perhaps stop talking about being "born again", which Jesus mentioned only 3 or 4 times, and start speaking about being disciples of Christ...which He spoke of throughout His entire ministry....How to be a disciple....How to be a member of the Kingdom of God on earth.

I fear that this concept of being born again (which is totally true) is being brought to extremes that are corrupting the message of Jesus and all the N.T. writers.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Hi dcon,

Thank you for the complement. If you agreed with me I would be most upset, because I know what
you represent. And thankfully my friend I answer to God and not you.

If you want a fully theological exegesis look at the statement of faith of the Nazarene Church.
I am following this theology, and it is where my heart is, not because of the words but my heart
sings glory to Christ.

If you want to describe this in a derogatory fashion, it just reflects on whatever you believe.
And you display no fear, to any degree, to be so condemning.

You have taught me not to be so trusting and open to those who shout sentences quickly yet hide
their meaning behind the veil of biblical faith.

God has established you as a free training aid for the Godly and what to expect, God bless you.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

Confess our sins one to another

A serious flaw to my approach to Jesus is to want to see Him rebuke others.
I have seen this, and it is not nice. The Lord has also rebuked me, in being judgemental
over others and their walk. I find it easily becomes personal and that is wrong.

The Lord has established His truth and reveals it in time to His people.
It is through the discussion, ups and downs of interactions that He refines us.

I have been with people who just agree and nod about how wise another is, and it gets
boring and not challenging. So I love the enthusiasm here, the people who read and want
to devour the ideas and explore its meaning. Without this, we would not have growth or
new insights.

So Gods wisdom is higher and much deeper than mine and He requires some to stay where
they are, and train the Godly in His truths and realities, in a safe space. God bless you all.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

dcontroversal said:

Amen.....exactly why God inspired the Koine Greek and then killed the language...so fools, liars, false teachers and deceivers cannot CHANGE what it means......one must be dense or totally dishonest to agrue or disagree that the Greek sets the standard for what the bible (N.T.) actually teaches.....Greek verb tense absolutely supports eternal security and there are nuances that ENGLISH cannot even come close to touching and or explaining.....

So Amazing!!!

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Yes lets censor ...NOT

Absolutely and totally disagree, a disciple is a learner. One cannot learn from Him unless one is in Him and He is in them.

Being "born again" is a roadblock for the workers, it is impossible to be born again and work for salvation, not liking the complete road block for those justifying themselves therefore lets just not talk about that....hmm??

My concern for you has gone up considerably.

This thread is about not needing works for salvation which we are all waiting for you to refute btw...

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

Yup, this is why you should be concerned.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

UnderGrace said:

What's to refute?
How many verses do you need?
Do I have to post the entire list again?
I'd need three posts.

Born again means we're in tune with our spiritual self. It means nothing else.
If we're in tune with our spiritual self....then that is the God part of us.
If it's the God part of us,,,,then we must aspire to be functioning in the image of Jesus.

If we function in the image of Jesus, do we call persons:
Liars
Dishonest
Going to hell

use language such as "crap"....which I don't understand why this is not banned on a Christian site.

Should there be ANY transformation at all?

Why do you worry for me who is trying to follow Jesus and be a disciple?
Why don't you worry about those that make NO EFFORT to do so? And display no fellowship AT ALL with God?

I do think you have misguided worries...

Worry about those that deny Jesus and do not follow Him...
Don't worry about those that are trying to follow Him....

mailmandan · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Where did I say the Moral Law has been abolished? I said, "When it comes to the moral aspect of the law, you cannot dissect good works from the law.."

The ENTIRE post is incorrect? Really? You obviously teach salvation by works then and remain confused. I equate quotations about works salvation back to the RCC because the RCC is at the top of the list of churches that teach salvation by works. Don't forget that I was born and raised in the RCC so I'm familiar with what they teach. It's no accident that the Reformation happened. Your psychological games will not work on me.

Straw man argument. I didn't say anything about the Moral aspect of the Law being abolished. Since the old covenant has been made obsolete, does this leave us with no moral direction? Absolutely not. God made obsolete the old covenant to "put legally into place" the new covenant (2 Corinthians 3:6-9; Hebrews 8:6-13). 9 of the 10 commandments which were part of the moral aspect of the law are reiterated in the New Testament:

You shall have no other gods before Me. - Acts 14:15
You shall make no idols. - 1 John 5:21
You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain. - James 5:12

*Keep the Sabbath day holy. - Not binding on the Church - Colossians 2:16-17 - Ceremonial law for Israel

Honor your father and your mother. - Ephesians 6:1-2
You shall not murder. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 John 3:15
You shall not commit adultery. - Romans 13:9-10; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10
You shall not steal. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 4:28
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. - Romans 13:9-10; Colossians 3:9-10
You shall not covet. - Romans 13:9-10; Ephesians 5:3

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

UnderGrace said:

This is funny.

The other poster said he follows God and not @dcontroversal .
Above is your reply.

Do you mean that Dcon is more important than God?

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

FollowHisSteps said:

GodsGrace101 said:

If you promote a false Gospel then one should be concerned because they do answer to God.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Being born again is being regenerated from above ....it is salvation.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Hi UnderGrace,

A mans heart is where he faces. Would you rather I answered to men and not follow Gods word?
And yes, because I answer to God, I am very careful. I work through theology and beliefs and check my
heart and its convictions, with the Lord and with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

We need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
So thank you for the encouragement for me to be careful.

And in context, do you disagree with the Nazarene statement of faith?
You may like dcon, and others, but that does not make them right or biblical or following the Lord.

So I would be greatly encouraged if you explained what you meant, rather than just being obtuse.

mailmandan · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

Amateur Catholic apologists also appeal to this interpretation in order to shake off their Protestant interlocutors. Their argument goes something like this: “When Paul writes that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, he means that a man is justified apart from keeping the ceremonial law required by Jewish circumcision. Paul is not arguing against works in general but against Jewish ceremonial works.” This explanation conveniently protects the role of the moral law and faith within justification—something universally affirmed by the Catholic Church. - https://taylormarshall.com/2013/10/paul-mean-by-faith-and-works-of-the-law.html

Straight from the horse's mouth.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

This is what you posted:

Those who teach salvation by works tend to subdivide the law (as demonstrated by you above) and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only). Roman Catholicism erroneously teaches the same thing and this flawed logic has also spilled over into other churches that teach salvation by works. Here is a statement made by someone who attends the church of Christ (Campbellism) - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." *Yet the law is not merely limited to ceremonial laws/circumcision/offerings/feasts etc.. but also encompasses moral commandments.

Why is everything so complicated to those such as yourself?
"these works"
"those works"
The RCC teaches the same thing...WHAT THING???
This flawed logic....WHAT FLAWED LOGIC?
NO church that I know of teaches salvation by works...
THIS is a STRAWMAN.

You say above the Law not only encompasses ceremonial laws/circumcision/offerings/feasts, etc. but also encompasses moral commandments.

So you ARE saying the moral law is included with the civil and ceremonial laws...
which you stated above as circumcision, offerings, feasts, etc.

What double-talk.
Who can understand what you even say.

Here I'll make it simple for you:

BEFORE we're saved, we're not required to obey God...WE'RE LOST. No obedience necessary.

AFTER salvation, we are required to obey God's moral law...it has been required from day one in the Garden and all the way into Revelation.

easy enough?

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

Amateur Catholic apologists also appeal to this interpretation in order to shake off their Protestant interlocutors. Their argument goes something like this: “When Paul writes that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the law, he means that a man is justified apart from keeping the ceremonial law required by Jewish circumcision. Paul is not arguing against works in general but against Jewish ceremonial works.” This explanation conveniently protects the role of the moral law and faith within justification—something universally affirmed by the Catholic Church. - https://taylormarshall.com/2013/10/paul-mean-by-faith-and-works-of-the-law.html

Straight from the horse's mouth.

Study some more.
You're really confused.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

A disciple is a learner.

But I wonder if you really understand what this means within the new covenant of Christ Jesus

FollowHisSteps said:

Hi UnderGrace,

A mans heart is where he faces. Would you rather I answered to men and not follow Gods word?
And yes, because I answer to God, I am very careful. I work through theology and beliefs and check my
heart and its convictions, with the Lord and with my brothers and sisters in Christ.

We need to work out our salvation in fear and trembling.
So thank you for the encouragement for me to be careful.

And in context, do you disagree with the Nazarene statement of faith?
You may like dcon, and others, but that does not make them right or biblical or following the Lord.

So I would be greatly encouraged if you explained what you meant, rather than just being obtuse.

UnderGrace · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

I think you forgot a portion.......and if we do not we will loose our salvation.

mailmandan · Mar 12, 2019

GodsGrace101 said:

This is what you posted:

Those who teach salvation by works tend to subdivide the law (as demonstrated by you above) and teach that we are saved by "these" works (good works) and just not "those" works (works of the law/ceremonial laws only). Roman Catholicism erroneously teaches the same thing and this flawed logic has also spilled over into other churches that teach salvation by works. Here is a statement made by someone who attends the church of Christ (Campbellism) - "It is works of obedience that help to save us and not works of the law or works of merit." *Yet the law is not merely limited to ceremonial laws/circumcision/offerings/feasts etc.. but also encompasses moral commandments.

Why is everything so complicated to those such as yourself?
"these works"
"those works"
The RCC teaches the same thing...WHAT THING???
This flawed logic....WHAT FLAWED LOGIC?
NO church that I know of teaches salvation by works...
THIS is a STRAWMAN.

You say above the Law not only encompasses ceremonial laws/circumcision/offerings/feasts, etc. but also encompasses moral commandments.

So you ARE saying the moral law is included with the civil and ceremonial laws...
which you stated above as circumcision, offerings, feasts, etc.

What double-talk.
Who can understand what you even say.

Here I'll make it simple for you:

BEFORE we're saved, we're not required to obey God...WE'RE LOST. No obedience necessary.

AFTER salvation, we are required to obey God's moral law...it has been required from day one in the Garden and all the way into Revelation.

easy enough?

It truly amazes me to see how just about everything that I explain to you continues to go right over your head.

GodsGrace101 said:

What irony.

FollowHisSteps · Mar 12, 2019

UnderGrace said:

Here is the contradiction. Born again except they lost their faith.
Instant entry into the divine, except one cannot say when or how or where.

And separation of a Godly walk from faith, as if there are not intertwined.
And the touch stone Isaiah 64:6 filthy rags. No righteous thing possible

Sinners are slaves to sin, the righteous are slaves to righteousness.
A slave may do some things that are opposite to their slavery, but they
always return.

In a world of free will you demonstrate what you are and the Kingdom
you ally with. For some they are always sinners and never righteous,
while others righteous, yet occasionally fall into temptation.

It is obvious to me, the sinners camp believe no one is different,
but only those who are different truly know.

GodsGrace101 · Mar 12, 2019

mailmandan said:

You must have trouble reading....

The ENTIRE article agrees with what I've always said:
Here's an example....

Grace remains primary in Catholic teaching.

Neither faith nor works merit our justification. Justification is received by faith and perfected by works of charity, but it is not earned by works alone.

Yes, prevenient grace is needed even for our initial faith in Christ. No man can be justified simply by observing the moral law found in the Ten Commandments.

This is the authentic Catholic teaching of the Catholic Church. “And without faith it is impossible to please God” (Heb 11:6). There is a synergy between faith and works, as James teaches (Jas 2:24). It is not faith alone. It is not works alone. It is faith first and works following—each flowing from the wellspring of grace springing from the wounded side of the crucified Christ.

and:

We are therefore said to be justified freely, because that none of those things which precede justification—whether faith or works—merit the grace itself of justification. For, if it be a grace, it is not now by works, otherwise, as the same Apostle says, grace is no more grace.

source: https://taylormarshall.com/2013/10/paul-mean-by-faith-and-works-of-the-law.html

Posted by YOU,,,,mailmandan.

Thanks for proving me right...it was very thoughtful of you.

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