Not By Works

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Discern

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James is referring to Genesis 22 when he speaks of Abraham being justified by works:

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? - James 2:21

9 ...Abraham built the altar there and arranged the wood, and bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar...
11 But the angel of the LORD called to him from heaven... 12He said, “Do not stretch out your hand against the lad, and do nothing to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.” - Genesis 22:9-12 NAS


Earlier, Abraham was justified by believing what God told him. Then in chapter 22 above he was justified by obeying what God told him to do. God saw it (the angel of the Lord, actually) and he was justified by what he did. James is saying the saved person is justified by both, what he believes, and what he does, and not by faith that is 'alone'.

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. - James 2:24

The person who thinks they can be saved by faith 'alone' and don't have to have the footsteps that correspond with that faith is in for a rude awaking when Jesus comes back. Faith that can not be validated by what it does is dead faith and is a 'faith' that can not save you. Not even Paul said the faith that justifies apart from works is 'alone'. Even in his doctrine the faith that justifies apart from works is the faith that finds it's expression in it's obedience to God, specifically the obedience to love (the summation of all of the commands of God).

5For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justification), but faith working through love. - Galatians 5:5-6

Faith that obeys, that is the faith that justifies apart from works and which saves you.
James and Paul both are talking about the kind of faith that is real. The faith that is real is inseparable from spiritual life.

James said faith without works is dead, because he is talking about mere intellectual assent without conversion. This does not bring spiritual life

Those who have believed from the heart have been raised to spiritual life. Therefore the things that pertain to godliness begin to progressively manifest in them, as they walk in the Spirit and grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus

Every good gift comes down from the Father of Lights. All that is good flows from Him. By Him and of Him are all blessings in heaven and on earth
 

PS

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Jan 11, 2013
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WOW, your answer is incredibly on the Naive side, in fact it is really on a very Naive side.

You really think YOU CAN after you are BORN AGAIN, do something that is totally against HIS WILL ? ? ?
Do you think you are more powerful than GOD, or JUST DON'T KNOW GOD ? ? ?
With GOD IN YOU, (that is the PART YOU TOTALLY DO NOT UNDERSTAND), So YOU THINK WE CAN UPSET GOD's PLAN FOR YOUR LIFE ? ? ?

After you are truly BORN AGAIN, your human spirit, HAS THE HOLY SPIRIT IN YOU, who will NEVER LEAVE, John 14:16, and the MIND OF CHRIST, 1 Cor. 2:16. They are literally IN YOU, IF YOU ARE BORN AGAIN. So you think YOU CAN OVER RULE THEM ? ? ? Are there disciples that Do Not have the Holy Spirit and the Mind of Christ IN THEM. Yes, and that is called Not BORN AGAIN. Not BORN AGAIN disciples are on the broad road heading towards the Destruction of Hades/Hell.

I normally do not quote the New Century Version, but you need it, to make sure you can understand it:


Isaiah 43:10-13 (NCV)
10 The LORD says, “You are my witnesses and the servant I chose. I chose you so you would know and believe me, so you would understand that I am the true God. There was no God before me, and there will be no God after me.
11 I myself am the LORD; I am the only Savior.
12 I myself have spoken to you, saved you, and told you these things. It was not some foreign god among you. You are my witnesses, and I am God,“ says the LORD.
13 “I have always been God. No one can save people from my power; when I do something, no one can change it.“


That is absolutely TRUE about BOTH HIS JUSTICE, and HIS GRACE AND MERCY. You yourself CANNOT CHANGE once you are REALLY SAVED, BECAUSE YOU ARE CONTROLLED BY THE POWER OF GOD, 1 Peter 1:3-5. IT BECOMES OUR WILL to do what Pleases HIM. NO, we are not PERFECT, but the CONTINUOUS Direction of our LIFE will be to strive to do what Pleases HIM, and when we fail, we will automatically go to 1 John 1:9 and CONFESS IT, and get right back up GOING TOWARDS the Direction that PLEASES HIM.

We I was SAVED after my third attempt at SUICIDE, the last week of 1977; the OVERWHELMING WAVE, AFTER WAVE, AFTER WAVE of GUILT WASHED OVER ME as I Mourned. I CRIED LIKE A BABY, BEGGING HIM to FORGIVE ME FOR MY WHOLE LIFE STYLE, OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I fell from my kneeling position to a prostrate Position face down. Then something unusual happened to me. I usually do not tell this part of my Testimony to someone that is just an acquaintance or adversary. So do not make me regret this.

After Several minutes of laying face down on my bedroom floor, I had a Vision or Dream, I can't tell which it was. But in that Vision or Dream, I was at the FOOT OF HIS CROSS on my knees, Crying and Reaching up to HIM, and still begging HIM TO FORGIVE ME, OVER AND OVER AGAIN. I know every one of my SINS was like a one pound weight pulling down on those nails. Then I looked at the NAILS, and to my surprise, they were THROUGH HIS WRISTS, not HIS HANDS. I had never heard anything like that from the CHURCH that I attended thought the nails were only in his hands. {Years later I saw a Christian Medical Doctor, who explained that they had to be in HIS wrists because in the Hands they would have torn through the Flesh in HIS hands, and he added "That makes no difference, because Jews in that day, considered the WRISTS to be Part of the Hands."}

As I was Crying and Reaching up to Him, from my kneeling position, THE HOLY SPIRIT must have given me A PRAYER, that I had NEVER HEARD BEFORE, I PRAYED WITH MY WHOLE HEART, "Lord FORGIVE ME, Lord FORGIVE ME. I you have a purpose for my life, YOU are going to have to come in me and run my LIFE, because I CAN NOT DO IT. I am making a Mess Out of it." I looked up at the NAILS in HIS Wrists, and saw the blood come dripping out and fell on my forearms, and that BLOOD WAS WARM! I KNEW I WAS FORGIVEN at that moment, AND I knew that prayer I prayed was a COMPLETE SURRENDER TO HIM, HE HAD ALL OF ME.

That is where the Vision or DREAM ended, But if it was a DREAM, it was the MOST VIVID DREAM THAT I HAVE EVER HAD IN MY WHOLE LIFE. AND DID HE TAKE CONTROL OF MY LIFE? WOW, did HE EVER. Part of this mornings SERMON, my Pastor taught, and made this COMMENT, that literally is the story of my life. Pastor Gil said, "Everything HE commands me to do, HE will EMPOWER me to do it."

How does that relate to me? Without going into detail, HE eventually put on my heart to MOVE WEST of Nebraska, and I did not know why. We settled in California about small town 90 miles northwest of Reno, NV. It was there where I volunteered to visit one Inmate at a time, to help disciple him. HE put in on my heart to MOVE WEST AGAIN, but this time HE TOLD ME WHY. HE wanted me to start a Prison Ministry, in a new Prison just being built on the Coast.

I had NO BIBLE COLLEGE, I had no idea how to Start a Prison Ministry, or How to get in touch with someone at the Prison to Volunteer, but I KNEW JESUS WOULD HELP ME TO DO HIS WILL. So we moved to the COAST to Where I started a Prison Ministry. Makes no sense you say, My Boss was JESUS CHRIST AND HE LED ME EVERY STEP OF THE WAY. ALL IT DID WAS TRUST HIM TO DO IT THROUGH ME.

I had Never been the PULPIT, and the First time a Pastor forgot it was his Sunday to teach the Sermon in Minimum Yard, (I had to escort the Pastor in) and by 5 minutes after time to Start the Service, I REALIZED the Pastor FORGOT, and I HAD TO PREACH, and yes, my knees turned to JELLO, but I KNEW HE KNEW HOW TO PREACH. So I Trusted HIM, when in the Chapel Office got down on my knees and PRAYED, "Lord God, You will have to give me what you wanted to be Said in this message, all I have is a few of the Salvation Verses, written in the back of me Bible, if you would like that to be the Sermon, I will Trust You to GIVE ME THE WORDS. In Jesus Name, AMEN." IT WORKED, AMAZINGLY as I TRUSTED HIM. So well, I wanted to take notes as HE preached through me.

After that the Head Chaplain asked me to take over the Wednesday night SERVICE and Sunday After Noon Service. I was working at the Post Office, and for ministry, I a Volunteer Chaplain, and did the Sunday afternoon Service in Minimum Yard, Wednesday Evening Service, and on Thursday night went into the Security Housing Unit {the Hole}. My Grandfather taught me IF IT WORKS DON'T FIX IT. So I trusted the Lord to Give what He wanted said in the Sermons every week, and trust the Lord to bring something into my life, to tell me what HE WANTED ME TO TEACH NEXT. I only gathered the appropriate verses, and HE WAS FAITHFUL, while I was just the busboy serving the FOOD, and as far as I am concerned HE DID IT ALL THROUGH ME, and all I did was want to be USED. That's right, I never wrote out a SERMON, I only gathered a few verses on a particular subject, and then TRUSTED HIM TOTALLY TO GIVE ME WHAT TO SAY.

You doubt, you devise hypothetical situations based on man's weaknesses without GOD, you say a man will can over ride GOD'S will, etc.;
BUT I HAVE BEEN THERE, AND I SAY THAT GOD IS POWERFUL ENOUGH TO DO IT THROUGH ME, AND TO KEEP MY SALVATION SECURE.

Read this again: Isaiah 43:10-13

Isaiah 46:11-12 (NIV)
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey; from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about; what I have planned, that will I do.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn-hearted, you who are far from righteousness.


Matthew 7:13-14 (NIV) [Both Roads only have disciples on it, unbelievers are not even pictured in this Parable.]
13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the
road that leads to destruction, and
many enter through it.
14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life [Born Again], and only a few find it.
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People can and do disobey God, King David for example. Here is another example

“Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.” 2 Samuel 12:9

The examples of disobedience in the link below prove the error of your religion.

https://biblehub.com/topical/naves/...,_and_in_arranging_for_the_death_of_uriah.htm
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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People can and do disobey God, King David for example. Here is another example

“Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.” 2 Samuel 12:9

The examples of disobedience in the link below prove the error of your religion.

https://biblehub.com/topical/naves/...,_and_in_arranging_for_the_death_of_uriah.htm

I can not believe it, YOU ARE STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING.

A born again Christ is not SINLESS, NO Human Being is:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

As a born again Christian, you are FREE from SINS DOMINION over you, but sin will happen on occasion.

As Dr. John MacArthur put it, "A born again Christian is not Sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will sin less, and less, and less."
 

PS

Senior Member
Jan 11, 2013
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I can not believe it, YOU ARE STILL NOT UNDERSTANDING.

A born again Christ is not SINLESS, NO Human Being is:

Ecclesiastes 7:20 (NKJV)
20 For there is not a just man on earth who does good And does not sin.

As a born again Christian, you are FREE from SINS DOMINION over you, but sin will happen on occasion.

As Dr. John MacArthur put it, "A born again Christian is not Sinless, but as he or she matures spiritually, they will sin less, and less, and less."
You need to take ALL scripture to heart and let it be a warning to you.

1 Timothy 4:1 "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons."

1 Timothy 1:19 Cling to your faith in Christ, and keep your conscience clear. For some people have deliberately violated their consciences; as a result, their faith has been shipwrecked.

2 Peter 2:20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.

2 Peter 3:17 Therefore, dear friends, since you already know this, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of lawless men and fall from your secure position.

Hbr 6:4 - "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
 

dcontroversal

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Dec 12, 2013
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People can and do disobey God, King David for example. Here is another example

“Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.” 2 Samuel 12:9

The examples of disobedience in the link below prove the error of your religion.

https://biblehub.com/topical/naves/...,_and_in_arranging_for_the_death_of_uriah.htm
You are about as dense as lead.....David never lost salvation genius!
 

Judges1318

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Nov 16, 2019
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I say this because for someone to feel that they have to maintain a level of works to remain saved.
No, not works. This is about maintaining faith to remain saved.
Faith can and will dry up if you neglect your relationship with God.
When you maintain faith through fellowship with God the works come along for the ride.....if you don't squelch them.
Turn away from the things of God and your faith will wane and sin will increase. The danger of which is eventually being hardened in unbelief by the deceitfulness of that sin.

The fact is that no level of works can save us.
With the exception of various groups with their fringe beliefs pretty much the whole church knows this. You can tell by how the church lives these days. If they believe that works literally purchase salvation they don't seem to concerned about that, lol. But it's obvious the evangelical church overall does not believe even a little bit that works buy salvation. The problem in the church is the exact opposite--they think dead faith saves. Christ said he will turn away MANY on that Day because of dead faith.

I'm assuming by works you mean fruit.
Yes. I almost said that in that post. Decided not to.

We know Jesus said that some bear more than others.
Yep.
The point is that the believer is growing in the fruit of the Spirit and is not characterized by his old life as if nothing happened inside of him.

Works do not save us, faith saves us and it is evidenced by our works and fruit.
I agree totally.

With regards to the assertion you make that they can still be saved even though they are living in death. I assume you mean they think they can do what they want and still be saved?
Yep.
And they even think they can go so far as to no longer trust in Christ and they will still be saved.

If so we know Paul addressed this in Romans.

Shall we use the grace of God to sin more, so that we can receive more grace, or that it covers it? NO NO NO NO, grace is not a license to sin.
It's pretty obvious to me that many people in the church think they have the license to sin and are driving very fast and hard with it. And they rationalize that by saying once you are saved you are always saved and cannot lose your salvation.

Now if we come across some like this then we need to remind/tell them what Paul said.
And receive a beating for it. :LOL:

For me Grace is not an excuse to sin, but actually grace enables us to say no to sin and walk as the children of the Father.
That is what grace was given us for. This new movement in once saved always saved says grace is given so you can stay in your old life and still be saved. I don't think I ever even heard that argument from anybody in the church 30 years ago. It was not even fathomable that you could be an unbeliever but be saved at the same time. Now it appears to be official doctrine of many churches.

Finally I would have to say if the people you describe above actually believe that and they have been corrected and still reject it and do not give two hoots then they are not Christians.
That's what I say. Because that's what the Bible says. The person who is unrighteous is not born again. John told us that in his letter so we could discern who was of the truth and who was not.
 

Guojing

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Jan 12, 2019
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No, not works. This is about maintaining faith to remain saved.
Faith can and will dry up if you neglect your relationship with God.
When you maintain faith through fellowship with God the works come along for the ride.....if you don't squelch them.
Turn away from the things of God and your faith will wane and sin will increase. The danger of which is eventually being hardened in unbelief by the deceitfulness of that sin.
People are always trying to sneak works in thru back doors like these.

It is not your faith that saves you, its Jesus's faith, the faith of Christ.

That faith does not dry up.
 
Nov 24, 2019
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What takes the cake is the fact that the workers for, cainologists and modern Pharisees quote the parables of JESUS as some go to verses to prove the loss of salvation and or some idiotic working for dogma to get saved or remain saved while being oblivious to the fact that the parables were primarily directed and given to contradict the Phariseeism crap that was being peddled in his day....ONE such parable is constantly peddled by Ralph in this this thread....the unmerciful debtor.......but carry on.....I cannot stress enough that there are a few in this thread peddling dogma that is not of GOD and that which will lead men to hell!
The parables of Jesus are living and active, useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished for every good work. God’s Spirit brings them alive and up to date and writes them on our hearts.

Separately, Jesus saves from anger and bitterness too. The pure in heart will see God, He said. A man’s tongue reflects his heart. He that has ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus Christ is Lord. Amen.
 
Mar 14, 2011
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People can and do disobey God, King David for example. Here is another example

“Why have you despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? You have killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and have taken his wife to be your wife, and have slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.” 2 Samuel 12:9

The examples of disobedience in the link below prove the error of your religion.

https://biblehub.com/topical/naves/...,_and_in_arranging_for_the_death_of_uriah.htm
Yep david, a the boy who God called a man after his own heart.

and remember, God knew at that time that david would commit those sins,yet still called him a man after his heart.

i think you continue to forget who and what God is, he is not human he knows all, he knew david and all he would ever do from his conceptions david says,


david did not stop being a child and have to be reborn again. god never forsook him.
 
Nov 24, 2019
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It does not get any plainer..........Our righteous works have ZERO to do with Salvation!

English Standard Version
he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Berean Study Bible
He saved us, not by the righteous deeds we had done, but according to His mercy, through the washing of new birth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.

Berean Literal Bible
He saved us, not by works in righteousness that we did, but according to His mercy, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

New American Standard Bible
He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,

King James Bible
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
Thank God for the renewing by the Holy Spirit and for a new way of life today - in the Holy Spirit.

And thank God for His covenant of love. As Daniel said, "O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps His covenant of love with all who love Him and obey His commands." Jesus, our Lord, stated it thus: "Whoever has My commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by My Father, and I too will love him and manifest Myself to him."

Jesus Christ is the source of eternal salvation of eternal salvation for all who obey Him, as it is written. So thank God for the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, because without this, the sanctified life He requires would be impossible. The Kingdom of God is not a matter of food and drink but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Yes, we are told to live in the Holy Spirit.

When Jude commands us to "keep ourselves in the love of God", thank God, we know the Way! Our bodies are living sacrifices today.

"Yet you still have a few persons in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes, and they shall walk with Me in white, because they are worthy and deserving. Thus shall he who conquers (is victorious) be clad in white garments, and I will not erase or blot out his name from the Book of Life; I will acknowledge him [as Mine] and I will confess his name openly before My Father and before His angels." Rev.3:4,5 Amp.

Let us head God and make every effort to make our calling and election sure today. Let's keep ourselves in the love of God. I wish for no one's name to be blotted out of the Book of Life. Jesus Christ is Savior and He is also Lord. His disciples abide in His Word and do not walk in the counsel of the wicked or stand in the way of sinners or sit in the seat of mockers. But their delight is in the Word of the Lord and on His Word they meditate day and night.

Consequently, they are like trees planted by streams of water, yeilding their fruit in season, whose leaves do not wither. Whatever they do prospers. Amen. So be it Lord.
 

mailmandan

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That doesn't mean the belief they started out with was not genuine or authentic. It means the word of God that was planted and had sprung up was not retained by that soil because the soil did not allow the word to be nourished and remain in the soil when the heat of trials and temptations came along.
Unlike saving belief, shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away is not rooted in a regenerate heart. How can no depth of earth, no root, no moisture, no fruit, represent saving belief? Also the same Greek word for believe "pisteuo" is used in James 2:19, in which we read that the demons believe"mental assent" that "there is one God," but they do not believe unto salvation.

John has portrayed people who "believe" (at least to some extent) but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in. We can see at best, these Jews believed in Him (based on their own misconceptions and expectations) of Jesus, yet upon gaining further knowledge about Jesus through His words, we see they did not believe unto salvation and become children of God (John 1:12; 3:18) but were instead children of the devil.

The kind of soil the word is planted in not only determines if the word planted there will be received in faith. The soil the word is planted in also determines if the word originally planted there will be retained in faith.
Even though this shallow ground hearer is said to have "believed," yet he is never said to have been "saved." How do we know that the shallow ground hearer was never actually "saved" His heart condition is contrasted with that of the "good ground" hearer, who's heart was "good" and "honest." Thus, his heart was not "good," being like the soil to which it corresponds, being "shallow" or "rocky," lacking sufficient depth. Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart. People who "believe" in a shallow way and "rejoice" at the preaching of the gospel without a prepared heart, and without a good and honest heart, and without having "root" in themselves, do not experience real salvation.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 NAS
1Now I make known to you, brethren, the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, 2by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, unless you believed in vain (that is, unless you believed in vain because the gospel of Christ is not even true to begin with--see vs.14&17--in which case you are not saved if you hold fast the word of a gospel that is not true).
To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. If, as some are saying in Corinth, there is no resurrection, then faith is vainand worthless (vs. 14). The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe in the first place). vs. 12 - Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? If Christ had not been raised from the dead, then the faith of genuine believers would be in vain, but of course, that is not the case.

1 John 2:24 NAS
let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father.
If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. The opposite is also true. In 1 John 2:17, we read - But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

The word of God not continuing in the heart of a person doesn't just mean the lack of genuine faith to begin with in that person. It can also indicate the loss of the genuine faith they started out with. The soil is what determines if the word that saved them will remain in that soil and save them.
Faith without works is dead, remember? I find it interesting that the same people who are quick to point out "faith without works is dead" (James 2:20) and state that the kind of faith which produces no works at all demonstrates a non-saving faith will turn right around and claim otherwise for belief that produces no fruit/works.


*Only the 4th soil produced crops of any size. Some may ask, "can this 4th soil eventually become fruitless?" If that were possible, why didn't Jesus include such a scenario before concluding? There is mention of a difference in the size of the crops, but no consequences or warnings are given to the lesser producers. Only the 4th soil was referred to as "good ground" and produced a crop (fruit) and there is NO MENTION OF CHOKING OR WITHERING AWAY AFTERWARDS.

It seems that only the person with the good soil of the fourth type can make any boast of not being in danger of ever losing their salvation, for that is the soil that represents people who
"have the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance."-Luke 8:15 NAS.
The words "lose salvation" are NOWHERE found in the parable of the soils.

And from what I'm seeing of the church today, I don't think many of us have that kind of soil in which to make the boast that we can never lose our salvation.
Show me the words, "lose salvation" in the Bible.
 

mailmandan

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I surely don't make that boast. Instead, I heed Paul's warning to not be conceded, but to continue in God's kindness with a good dose of holy fear (Romans 11:20-22).
Professing Christians who are Gentiles are corporately in outward covenant with Christ so, it would appear that Romans 11 is speaking about the question of collective ecclesiology and not individual soteriology. I see the warning to this collective body, which is corporately joined to Christ and is in a covenant relationship, but how could this mean that every individual in it is in saving union with Christ? Hence the "cut off." Being in union with Christ applies to the elect, and only for the elect are, "the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable." (vs. 29) But since non elect covenant members are mixed in, Christ appears to have non elect branches, like Judas Iscariot (John 15:1-8) and while they may be joined outwardly in covenant with Christ, in which they have professed faith in Him, the faith of some of them is spurious because they were never truly saved to begin with, even though they were among genuine believers. (1 John 2:19). So I don't see Romans 11:17-24 teaching that a genuine believer can lose their salvation.

So you see, this is not just a matter of if the faith a person started out with was really genuine or not. It's all about the soil the word is planted in, and whether or not the word of faith will be sustained in that soil or not.
It's all about the right soil and the heart being properly prepared to receive the word. Only the 4th soil which is said to be "good ground" properly received the word, produced a crop and persevered. It's obvious what the cause and effect are. The condition of the soil preceded the results. In regards to the thorny soil (3rd soil)
in Matthew 13:22, some argue "becomes unfruitful" (as read in certain translations) means "was fruitful but then later became unfruitful." Other translations say:

Bible in Basic English - put a stop to the growth of the word and it gives no fruit.
Complete Jewish Bible - so that it produces nothing.
English Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
New Century Version - So the teaching does not produce fruit in that person's life.
New Revised Standard - choke the word, and it yields nothing.
Revised Standard Version - choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.
The Amplified Bible reads, "and it yields no fruit."
Luke 8:14 says "bring no fruit to maturity."

That is not the same thing as "was fruitful, only to later become unfruitful." Produces nothing, proves unfruitful, does not produce fruit, yields nothing, yields no fruit, brings no fruit to maturity, just does not equate to produced fruit but later stopped producing fruit.

If someone wants to make the boast that they can never ever lose their salvation, they need to become the 4th type of soil, for it is in that kind of soil that the word is held fast and bears fruit to the very end and does not fall away into unbelief.
My boast is in Christ and is not in myself.
Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ,
by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Those who fall away into unbelief from their original profession of faith demonstrate that their faith was never firmly rooted and established from the start. There are genuine Christians and there are nominal Christians. There are genuine believers and there are make believers.
 

mailmandan

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I agree.....salvation is not earned by works.
I'm certainly not here to defend those misguided doctrines.
Just don't try to sneak works into the back door of salvation through faith. I call that trying to "shoe horn" works "into" salvation through faith.

Salvation is by the faith that continues to the very end.
The works are just the footsteps in the sand of that continuing faith.
Just as Abraham's footsteps were the footsteps of his faith.
Faith that saves continues and is not some shallow,. temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit and withers away.

No footsteps means no faith.
It either died in that person or was never present to begin with.
Faith is the root of salvation and works which follow and are produced out of faith are the fruit. No fruit at all demonstrates there is no root.
 

mailmandan

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James is referring to Genesis 22 when he speaks of Abraham being justified by works: Earlier, Abraham was justified by believing what God told him. Then in chapter 22 above he was justified by obeying what God told him to do. God saw it (the angel of the Lord, actually) and he was justified by what he did. James is saying the saved person is justified by both, what he believes, and what he does, and not by faith that is 'alone'.
In what sense was Abraham justified by faith? (Romans 4:2-3) In what sense was Abraham justified by works? (James 2:21) In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Faith that obeys, that is the faith that justifies apart from works and which saves you.
Sounds like an oxymoron. Are you sure that you are not trying to sneak works through the back door of salvation through faith? :unsure:
 

Discern

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To run and work, the Law commands
But gives us neither feet nor hands
But better news the gospel brings
It bids us fly, and gives us wings

John Bunyun
 

Judges1318

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He showed me how by continually questioning this, i was continually casting doubt on His faithfulness to complete the work He began - that it was unbelief on my part.
Being able to lose your salvation does mean living in fear that God can't finish what he started.
It means keep believing in the one who can finish what he started.
See the difference?
 

Judges1318

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In what sense was Abraham justified by faith? (Romans 4:2-3) In what sense was Abraham justified by works? (James 2:21) In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous.

Sounds like an oxymoron. Are you sure that you are not trying to sneak works through the back door of salvation through faith? :unsure:
I'm positive I'm not doing that.
I firmly believe that a person can not earn their salvation with good works.
I tried that. Been there, done that.
In fact, that is why I am born again, Spirit filled today.
I fell on God's mercy when I realized I can't get from here to there because I in myself can't do righteous works and stay out of sin.

But anyway, the proper argument is, you can't abandon in unbelief the ongoing ministry of Jesus in heaven that secures the justification that you received the moment you first believed and go back to your old life. Righteous works after salvation are the footsteps of faith. A continuing faith in the promise of God. That is no more a 'works earn salvation gospel' for us than it was for Abraham.
 

EleventhHour

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It is impossible to be saved for all eternity without having a glorified body; we are not saved.
This is absolutely wrong.... best to abandon this Roman Catholic false concept... concocted to keep people in submission and dependent upon an evil institution.

I used the word "concocted" in its most pejorative, evil sense.