Not By Works

[PS]

To imply otherwise "and especially without context" seems to promote a level of lasciviousness and unaccountability in my opinion.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The context is, that our 'works' need to be acceptable to God.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Their is nothing in this this world that is obtained or maintained without work.
Personally if someone preaches salvation void of the works of The Father, I would not believe them.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
-------------------------
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
------------------------

To imply otherwise "and especially without context" seems to promote a level of lasciviousness and unaccountability in my opinion.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

That’s because everything on this earth has to be worked for.but even then ther are things we will never be able to afford

salvation is one of those things,you can never do enough works to purchase forgiveness for one sin, let alone the probably thousands you have committed since birth

james is speaking of those licentious people you spoke of who have no faith, and never did, which is why they had no work. James did not contradict paul (Rom 4)

 

[PS]

Their is nothing in this this world that is obtained or maintained without work.
Personally if someone preaches salvation void of the works of The Father, I would not believe them.

The birds of the air neither plow or sow, neither do the world's wildlife. Perhaps mankind is greedy and takes what does not belong to them, but instead they rob the earth.

 

[PS]

The birds of the air neither plow or sow, neither do the world's wildlife. Perhaps mankind is greedy and takes what does not belong to them, but instead they rob the earth.

This 5 minute rule needs extending.

So now, After raping the earth we suffer the consequences of climate change.

 

[iymus]

Abraham did not do any actual work, he simply showed a willingness to obey God. That was sufficient.

Abraham did not do any actual work!!!? I see. Now I know Since Abraham did not do any work then he could not be justified by any work. When prophets or wise men such as yourself give such clarification I can only be silent.

-------------------

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[mailmandan]

Abraham did not do any actual work!!!? I see. Now I know Since Abraham did not do any work then he could not be justified by any work. When prophets or wise men such as yourself give such clarification I can only be silent.
-------------------
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James did not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22 resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was shown to be righteous. We discover this from the CONTEXT.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In James 2:22, faith made perfect by works means bring to maturity, carry to the end, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It doesn't mean that Abraham was finally saved based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23, the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

 

[Chris1975]

In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

James 2
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Look at the word "ONLY".

>Abraham believes in God ---- justified and righteousness is imputed at the start.
>Abraham lives a life of Faith in God as evidenced by his Works (Obedience) ---- continued justification and righteousness.
>If Abraham drew back and didn't heed Gods direct commandment, could we claim that Abraham was still acting in faith? Ofcourse not.
>The evidence that Abraham operated in Faith was evidenced by the fact that his actions testified to the fact.
>God will look at our entire walk with Him. Unlike Saul who started off well, but ended without faith (because his disobedience drew him away from the heart of God), Abraham started off well and continued to fight the good fight of faith (obedience to Gods word).

Here is a scripture which comes to mind:

1 Timothy 6
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

If ALL was established at the very start, then this scripture above would be moot.

 

[gb9]

James 2
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Look at the word "ONLY".

>Abraham believes in God ---- justified and righteousness is imputed at the start.
>Abraham lives a life of Faith in God as evidenced by his Works (Obedience) ---- continued justification and righteousness.
>If Abraham drew back and didn't heed Gods direct commandment, could we claim that Abraham was still acting in faith? Ofcourse not.
>The evidence that Abraham operated in Faith was evidenced by the fact that his actions testified to the fact.
>God will look at our entire walk with Him. Unlike Saul who started off well, but ended without faith (because his disobedience drew him away from the heart of God), Abraham started off well and continued to fight the good fight of faith (obedience to Gods word).

Here is a scripture which comes to mind:

1 Timothy 6
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

If ALL was established at the very start, then this scripture above would be moot.

as usual. very selective editing of Scripture.

belief and belief in Jesus alone is all that is required to be saved.

but, a true believer will do good works , as James said- faith without works is dead.

but, the faith produces the works, not the works maintain the faith.

that is where you legalists get it wrong.

 

[Chris1975]

as usual. very selective editing of Scripture.

belief and belief in Jesus alone is all that is required to be saved.

but, a true believer will do good works , as James said- faith without works is dead.

but, the faith produces the works, not the works maintain the faith.

that is where you legalists get it wrong.

Who said that works maintain the faith? Why are you making a leap that I didn't assert. True faith has works, and these works are justification. This is what James 2v24 says.

 

[gb9]

Who said that works maintain the faith? Why are you making a leap that I didn't assert. True faith has works, and these works are justification. This is what James 2v24 says.

you are saying it. just not directly.

you see, when you try to prop James up a salvation process by itself, and selectively edit Scripture to make it appear that faith and works both save, that is wrong. and dishonest.

belief in Christ alone is all it takes for one to saved. the good works will follow.

 

[iymus]

That’s because everything on this earth has to be worked for.but even then ther are things we will never be able to afford

salvation is one of those things,you can never do enough works to purchase forgiveness for one sin, let alone the probably thousands you have committed since birth

james is speaking of those licentious people you spoke of who have no faith, and never did, which is why they had no work. James did not contradict paul (Rom 4)

Those who have faith without works have no faith because it is dead therefore James goes hand in hand with Jude.

You have to use the volume of the book or look at everything on a macro level and not micro.

Abraham was not Justified by works but by his belief however it was his belief that stirred works and /or obedience which was added to his faith and completed it or made it whole.

Rom 4:1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
Rom 4:2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

Rom 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jud 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

We are to live by faith and works is what complete our faith. At a certain point or maturity nothing is obtained or maintained without works which is a fact of life or the sum of my life experiences and observations.

Seems like your using sins of the past as scapegoat to justify faithless works of the present and future.

Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Rev 22:11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Rev 22:12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

 

[Chris1975]

Lets look at the Faith Chapter in the bible. This is the scripture revealing what faith really is:

Its ALL ACTION/WORKS.

Hebrews 11

1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. 2 For by it the elders obtained a good testimony.

3 By faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that the things which are seen were not made of things which are visible.

4 By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.


11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she[d] bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off [e]were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 [f]of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,” 19 concluding that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.


21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.


22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the [g]passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the [h]reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures [i]in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days. 31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who [j]did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets: 33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, [k]were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

 

[Chris1975]

you are saying it. just not directly.

you see, when you try to prop James up a salvation process by itself, and selectively edit Scripture to make it appear that faith and works both save, that is wrong. and dishonest.

belief in Christ alone is all it takes for one to saved. the good works will follow.

Belief includes Obedience. The corollary: You cannot say you believe in Jesus but are not willing to obey.

Hebrews 3
18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Read this scripture again and again until you get it.

 

[Chris1975]

you are saying it. just not directly.

you see, when you try to prop James up a salvation process by itself, and selectively edit Scripture to make it appear that faith and works both save, that is wrong. and dishonest.

belief in Christ alone is all it takes for one to saved. the good works will follow.

If you are living in unrepentant sin, I can assure you that your faith is not where it needs to be. You need to deal with it. How can you go to God and say your works are evidence of your faith in Him, when he points out to you that you actively chose disobedience over obedience to His word?

 

[mailmandan]

James 2
23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

Faith only here in context is an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Look at the word "ONLY".
>Abraham believes in God ---- justified and righteousness is imputed at the start.
>Abraham lives a life of Faith in God as evidenced by his Works (Obedience) ---- continued justification and righteousness.

Leave it to you to turn this into a lose your salvation discussion. Abraham was justified/accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-3) yet was justified/shown to be righteous as evidenced by his works (James 2:21-24).

>If Abraham drew back and didn't heed Gods direct commandment, could we claim that Abraham was still acting in faith? Of course not.
>The evidence that Abraham operated in Faith was evidenced by the fact that his actions testified to the fact.
>God will look at our entire walk with Him. Unlike Saul who started off well, but ended without faith (because his disobedience drew him away from the heart of God), Abraham started off well and continued to fight the good fight of faith (obedience to Gods word).

Abraham obviously did not draw back because his faith was authentic, unlike those who have an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) James 2 is not discussing losing salvation and I understand you are absolutely obsessed with that topic, but it's really getting old. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, losing salvation was a hot topic with Roman Catholics as well. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

Here is a scripture which comes to mind:

1 Timothy 6
12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, to which you were also called and have confessed the good confession in the presence of many witnesses.

If ALL was established at the very start, then this scripture above would be moot.

This is an exhortation and not a warning about losing salvation. Back to the 3 tenses of salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Those who fight the good fight of faith, lay hand on eternal life are those with authentic faith. Notice also that such people were called. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. Nothing there about losing salvation either.

 

[calibob]

​

 

[mailmandan]

Belief includes Obedience. The corollary: You cannot say you believe in Jesus but are not willing to obey.

Are you saying that obedience is included in the definition of belief? I often hear works-salvationists say belief includes obedience and what they mean by that is belief is in essence obedience/works. I hope that's not where you are going with this.

Hebrews 3

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey? 19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Read this scripture again and again until you get it.

Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief.

 

[Chris1975]

Faith only here in context is an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith. In James 2:14, we read of one who says/claims he has faith but has no works (to substantiate his claim). That is not genuine faith, but a bare profession of faith. So when James asks, "Can that faith save him?" he is saying nothing against genuine faith, but only against an empty profession of faith/dead faith. *So James does not teach that we are saved "by" works. His concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

Leave it to you to turn this into a lose your salvation discussion. Abraham was justified/accounted as righteous by faith, not works (Romans 4:2-3) yet was justified/shown to be righteous as evidenced by his works (James 2:21-24).

Abraham obviously did not draw back because his faith was authentic, unlike those who have an empty profession of faith/dead faith. (James 2:14) James 2 is not discussing losing salvation and I understand you are absolutely obsessed with that topic, but it's really getting old. Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, losing salvation was a hot topic with Roman Catholics as well. Fear and bondage to IN-security is no way to live the Christian life.

This is an exhortation and not a warning about losing salvation. Back to the 3 tenses of salvation. 1. We have been saved from the PENALTY of sin (justification) 2. We are being saved from the POWER of sin (ongoing sanctification) 3. We will be saved from the PRESENCE of sin (glorification)

Those who fight the good fight of faith, lay hand on eternal life are those with authentic faith. Notice also that such people were called. Romans 8:30 - Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.Nothing there about losing salvation either.

Why is it necessary to FIGHT the good fight of faith? Why is it necessary to LAY HOLD ON ETERNAL LIFE. You see none of your explanations hold when it comes to the plain word of God. Why?

Because according to you once a faith is genuine, then they cannot lose it. Then why the FIGHT? That involves belief and action. And if its a fight, who are we fighting against? If its a fight there necessarily implies victory or loss. So what is the consequence of the loss of the fight? What happens to those who lose the fight of faith? Can anyone obtain salvation without faith?

Why is it necessary to Lay Hold on Eternal Life? According to you it is a done deal, and something that was finalised at the start. So why is this an instruction from Paul going forward?

Therein lies the problem with your doctrine. Other things in scripture begin to pop out of balance and wobble.

 

[Chris1975]

Are you saying that obedience is included in the definition of belief? I often hear works-salvationists say belief includes obedience and what they mean by that is belief is in essence obedience/works. I hope that's not where you are going with this.

Disobedience is a manifestation of unbelief.

You are correct. Belief includes obedience because obedience stems from Belief.
The corrollary: Disobedience stems from Unbelief.

So you say you have Faith (Belief) in God? Then there is obedience. Simple.

 

[Chris1975]

Take these scriptures at face value without distorrting twisting and intellectualising this to force fit your doctrines. Take it in pure simple English.

Luke 6
46 “But why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say? 47 Whoever comes to Me, and hears My sayings and does them, I will show you whom he is like: 48 He is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid the foundation on the rock. And when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently against that house, and could not shake it, for it was [j]founded on the rock. 49 But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it [k]fell. And the ruin of that house was great.”