Not By Works

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posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#131,901
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#131,901
eternally-gratefull said:
all includes Job.
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You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’​
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.​
Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’​
I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You.​
Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.​
(Job 42:3-6) ​
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#131,903
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
#131,903
SoulWeaver said:
I thought that the Bible said everybody deserved wrath. (But God endured the vessels of wrath)
And nobody deserved mercy (that's why it's called grace).
Deserving implies earning and that underlying concept that comes through here and there is why you're being contested. I honestly don't think you're even doing it purposely.
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Again, you're interpreting the whole thing through your reading of Romans. Romans is not a theological treatise and it wasn't until it began being treated as such that this false division between faith/works began. It's why Luther wanted to throw out James, Hebrews, Jude, and Revelation. Grace means getting more than you deserve, but mercy is something that you can deserve based on not having done anything that requires retribution. Justice would not be just if a single penalty was given to all, but that was what sin created. It destroys without regard to morality, and the world shows it. But God is just, and the righteous find Him. The twisted gospel you preach comes from a twisted view of humanity and creates a twisted picture of justice.
 
star

star

Senior Member
#131,904
Nov 8, 2017
1,582
2,046
113
North Carolina
#131,904
Phoneman-777 said:
Salvation ain't a ticket that you get punched, it's a relationship that must not be neglected. "...but he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved." As sure as I'm born a man, the saint who stops in his tracks on the Path of Righteousness and chooses to kick God off the throne of his heart and enthrone himself again permanently will assuredly perish in the Lake of Fire.
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First off, OSAS doesn't "teach" anything. We accept the Truth given to us about salvation.

Secondly, that "relationship" is established once and for all when we accept Christ and become saved, through the "gift" provided by God through His Son Jesus Christ. That is what a relationship is.

Thirdly, There is a difference between "relationship" and "fellowship." Fellowship can be broken and mended. My children cannot never end their relationship with me. Kids and mother forever. Our fellowship with one another can be broken.

Final thought, for you and those who preach works or hanging on to salvation: I would be very careful deciding who will be thrown into that lake of fire.
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#131,905
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
#131,905
posthuman said:
You asked, ‘Who is this who hides counsel without knowledge?’​
Therefore I have uttered what I did not understand, things too wonderful for me, which I did not know.​
Listen, please, and let me speak; You said, ‘I will question you, and you shall answer Me.’​
I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, but now my eye sees You.​
Therefore I abhor myself and repent in dust and ashes.​
(Job 42:3-6) ​
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“Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#131,907
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
#131,907
posthuman said:
it's sad you think there has never been a doctrine of grace apart from rejection of papism.
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Oh there has been, but it's not the doctine that Luther preached. If one condemns Christ to justify themselves, they have only proven that they deserve His wrath.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#131,912
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
113
#131,912
Bbrdrd said:
Oh there has been, but it's not the doctine that Luther preached. If one condemns Christ to justify themselves, they have only proven that they deserve His wrath.
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i must have missed the part where salvation is by condemning Christ . . ?
 
E

EleventhHour

Guest
#131,913
#131,913
Bbrdrd said:
No, it's not. That's a protestant doctrine that comes from a twisted view of anthropology and justice. It's a teaching of men and its fruits are apparent.
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I am quite familiar how Catholics view things ... and I see the typical works/grace mix in your ideas.

But I wonder how you would deal with these verses ... and imputed is not used surely you can see that is the righteousness of Christ .. not our righteousness.

Can you please explain what these verses mean according to your dogma?

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#131,914
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
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#131,914
posthuman said:
i must have missed the part where salvation is by condemning Christ . . ?
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What would you call "he took the penalty I deserved"? Penal substitution, as presented by protestants, calls to do exactly that. To glory in His sufferings rather than recognizing the injustice of it. The great exchange does exactly that, by placing the guilt of your sins onto Him so that you can be "deemed righteous". The point of the cross is to bring us to the point where we recognize that our answer to God's question to Job is yes and to be ashamed of it. Those who recognize this are set free because God shows that He truly is just.
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#131,916
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
425
83
#131,916
EleventhHour said:
I am quite familiar how Catholics view things ... and I see the typical works/grace mix in your ideas.

But I wonder how you would deal with these verses ... and imputed is not used surely you can see that is the righteousness of Christ .. not our righteousness.

Can you please explain what these verses mean according to your dogma?

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Philippians 3:9 - And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
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Ain't a catholic. I'm a former protestant, now simply a disciple.
 
posthuman

posthuman

Senior Member
#131,918
Jul 31, 2013
37,844
13,558
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#131,918
Bbrdrd said:
What would you call "he took the penalty I deserved"?
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Samson carrying away the gates of Gaza on his shoulders
blood sprinkled on the mercy seat
the ashes of the red heifer
the ark of Noah being covered inside and out with 'pitch' ((= 'atonement' ... look it up))
God providing a Lamb for Isaac's place
the LORD God making coverings for Adam & his wife

but you call it blasphemy, i take it?
and you say, this is something only a few hundred years old?
 
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Bbrdrd

Banned
#131,919
Apr 2, 2020
1,144
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#131,919
EleventhHour said:
Interesting... can you then still answer my question?

Please and thank you.
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The first has to do with what the second "sin" is, which is a sin offering. To answer that question we have to go to Leviticus and examine its theology. The principle issue there is not guilt, but uncleanness/impurity. They had a unclean-common-clean theology and the blood was used to cleanse the implements of the temple of the stain that sin had left behind. So Christ becoming our sin offering means He cleanses us from the stain that our sin entailed

The second is about recognizing that righteousness comes not according to the law, but faith in Christ.
 
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EleventhHour

Guest
#131,920
#131,920
Bbrdrd said:
The first has to do with what the second "sin" is, which is a sin offering. To answer that question we have to go to Leviticus and examine its theology. The principle issue there is not guilt, but uncleanness/impurity. They had a unclean-common-clean theology and the blood was used to cleanse the implements of the temple of the stain that sin had left behind. So Christ becoming our sin offering means He cleanses us from the stain that our sin entailed

The second is about recognizing that righteousness comes not according to the law, but faith in Christ.
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So you agree that righteousness comes by faith in Christ... is this a process then since you do not believe it is imputed at the moment of faith?
 
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