O.T. Circumcision a foreshadow of N.T. Water Baptism

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Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#1
Well known patriarchs such as Abraham and Moses were considered righteous because of their faith in God. Both men were used mightily of God. Yet, if they had been disobedient in their covenantal responsibilities the Bible makes it clear that they were in jeopardy of losing their salvation.

God commanded Abraham to circumcise all male children:
“This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.” Genesis 17:10-14

Moses was also told to circumcise all male children. His disobedience almost cost him his life:
“And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.
Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.” Exodus 4:24-26

The following circumcision commentary is very interesting: “Its significance is, that the cutting of the outside flesh of the organ of generations denotes corruption as inherent in us from birth, and transmitted by our parents, and symbolizes our severance from nature's defilement to a state of consecrated fellowship with God. Jehovah consecrated the nation to Himself; and whatsoever male was not circumcised on the eighth day was liable to be "cut off." Moses had neglected to circumcise his son, owing to Zipporah's repugnance to it, as a rite not generally adopted in the East, even by the descendants of Abraham and Keturah, the Midianites. The Lord sought to kill him, which he and his wife were divinely admonished arose from the neglect. She took a sharp stone or flint (compare Josh 5:2,8), the
implement sanctioned by patriarchal usage as more sacred than metal (as was the Egyptian usage also in preparing mummies), and cut off her son's foreskin, and cast it at Moses' feet, saying, "a bloody husband art thou to me," i.e., by this blood of my child I have recovered thee as my husband, and sealed our union again. (Ex 4:25).

A name was given on the day of circumcision, as at baptism (Luke 1:59; 2:21). The painfulness of Old Testament initiatory rite, as compared with the New Testament baptism, marks strongly the contrast between the stern covenant of the law and the loving gospel. Jesus' submission to it betokened His undertaking to fulfill the law in all its requirements, and to suffer its penalty incurred by us. (from Fausset's Bible Dictionary)

Upon entering the promised land, Joshua performed circumcisions at the hill of Gilgal. Gilgal means rolling -"rolling" away of the reproach of uncircumcision. (Fausset's Bible Dictionary)

Jesus informed John the Baptist that water baptism was to be done to fulfill “all righteousness.” (Matthew 3:15)

Jesus told Peter and the disciples to teach people “…to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.” Matthew 28:20

Ten days after Jesus made the foregoing statement, Peter gave specific instructions on the Day of Pentecost. Peter began his sermon by quoting the prophet Joel, “…whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved,” Peter tells the bystanders to be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sin. The Word indicates they believed Him because three thousand souls were baptized, and accepted into the family of God.

Ananias instructed Paul to call on the name of the Lord during his own baptism. “And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord. “ Acts 22:16

Colossians 2:6-13
“As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him: Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving. Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

As recorded in both the Old and New Testaments a child did not receive his official name until the day he was circumcised.
Luke 2:21 “And when eight days were accomplished for the circumcising of the child, his name was called JESUS, which was so named of the angel before he was conceived in the womb.”

Genesis 21:3-4 “And Abraham called the name of his son that was born unto him, whom Sarah bare to him, Isaac. And Abraham circumcised his son Isaac being eight days old, as God had commanded him.”

Luke 1:59-60 “And it came to pass, that on the eighth day they came to circumcise the child; and they called him Zacharias, after the name of his father. And his mother answered and said, Not so; but he shall be called John.”

During our water baptism “in Jesus Name” we take on His name and become part of God’s Holy Nation (family). Prior to water baptism we are foster children so to speak. Afterward we are adopted into the family having taken on His name.

Acts 4:9 “Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.”

Acts 10:42-43 “And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#2
... so ya'll only baptize men, not women, and you do it to infants on the 8th day?

irrespective of faith on the part of the one being baptized, but only because of the parent's obligation, and based wholly on physical descendancy?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#3
... so ya'll only baptize men, not women, and you do it to infants on the 8th day?

irrespective of faith on the part of the one being baptized, but only because of the parent's obligation, and based wholly on physical descendancy?
Yes, parents taking responsibility for their children. With these actions for children that all who knew God as their creator and Lord did to their children was a promise to God and a promise to the child to do their best to instill proper living for God in that child.

We can all depend absolutely on God knowing us, and giving us instructions that result in goodness for all in every way. Before Christ, people blindly sacrificed animals as part of their repentance. They had no idea that it related to Christ yet they obeyed. Blind obedience. That is faith, it is what is needed today.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#4
Yes, parents taking responsibility for their children. With these actions for children that all who knew God as their creator and Lord did to their children was a promise to God and a promise to the child to do their best to instill proper living for God in that child.

We can all depend absolutely on God knowing us, and giving us instructions that result in goodness for all in every way. Before Christ, people blindly sacrificed animals as part of their repentance. They had no idea that it related to Christ yet they obeyed. Blind obedience. That is faith, it is what is needed today.
so baptism has nothing to do with the person being baptized and everything to do with the parents of the infant being baptized, and baptism makes no comment on the infants own faith nor their salvation?

odd.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
24,906
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#5
does baptism save?

should evangelists ignore everyone old/mature enough to hear and understand the gospel, and spend all their time with buckets of water in maternity wards instead?

seems like a very different picture than what i read in scripture. '
faith cometh by sprinkling' doesn't really ring a bell, but i'll go back and read some more.

weird.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#6
The following circumcision commentary is very interesting: “Its significance is, that the cutting of the outside flesh of the organ of generations denotes corruption as inherent in us from birth, and transmitted by our parents, and symbolizes our severance from nature's defilement to a state of consecrated fellowship with God. Jehovah consecrated the nation to Himself; and whatsoever male was not circumcised on the eighth day was liable to be "cut off." Moses had neglected to circumcise his son, owing to Zipporah's repugnance to it, as a rite not generally adopted in the East, even by the descendants of Abraham and Keturah, the Midianites. The Lord sought to kill him, which he and his wife were divinely admonished arose from the neglect. She took a sharp stone or flint (compare Josh 5:2,8), the
implement sanctioned by patriarchal usage as more sacred than metal (as was the Egyptian usage also in preparing mummies), and cut off her son's foreskin, and cast it at Moses' feet, saying, "a bloody husband art thou to me," i.e., by this blood of my child I have recovered thee as my husband, and sealed our union again. (Ex 4:25).
The ceremonial law of circumcision is in respect the suffering of Christ our husband that works in the believer. Him being cut off from the father causing him to cry out for strength to finish the promised work . Moses being warned by a gentile wife. God did not slay Moses, as a picture of his great mercy. Moses as us received the end of the faith from the beginning. We look back to that glory indicted by circumcision that did follow the work of Christ they looked ahead by the same mutual faith.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter 1:9-11


A name was given on the day of circumcision, as at baptism (Luke 1:59; 2:21). The painfulness of Old Testament initiatory rite, as compared with the New Testament baptism, marks strongly the contrast between the stern covenant of the law and the loving gospel. Jesus' submission to it betokened His undertaking to fulfill the law in all its requirements, and to suffer its penalty incurred by us. (from Fausset's Bible Dictionary)

Jesus informed John the Baptist that water baptism was to be done to fulfill “all righteousness.” (Matthew 3:15)
Water baptism is a old testament ceremonial law having to do with the priesthood that has been changed to reflect what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Before the baptism of the Son of man Jesus from the tribe of judah a person must of came from the family of Levi. Jesus came after the order of Melchedik making the believer a kingdom of priest after all the nations of the world men, woman and children alike sent out with the seed of Christ, the gospel of our salvation. the water baptism is still performed today as a ceremonial purifying law. John 3:25

Then there arose a question between some of John's disciples and the Jews about purifying.And they came unto John, and said unto him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond Jordan, to whom thou barest witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him .John 3;25-26

Two different purposes set aside as Holy . (1) Circumcision as sign that point to the suffering of Christ our husband. (2) Baptism a desire to be come a member of the kingdoms of priests after the new order of Melchezedek
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#7
so baptism has nothing to do with the person being baptized and everything to do with the parents of the infant being baptized, and baptism makes no comment on the infants own faith nor their salvation?

odd.
If parents promise to do all they can to teach a child, how can you have a mind set against it meaning anything to the child?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
1,777
513
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#8
does baptism save?

should evangelists ignore everyone old/mature enough to hear and understand the gospel, and spend all their time with buckets of water in maternity wards instead?

seems like a very different picture than what i read in scripture. 'faith cometh by sprinkling' doesn't really ring a bell, but i'll go back and read some more.

weird.
All of belonging to God, God's creation of us, all guidance God gives us cannot be completely summed up with the word "salvation". Salvation is primary but not the all in all.

Baptism comes after salvation. We have a life on this earth to live as saved humans. God gives us guidance for living that saved life.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#9
If parents promise to do all they can to teach a child, how can you have a mind set against it meaning anything to the child?
it's not that i'm saying a child will never see or appreciate the effort.
it's that the picture i'm getting is that it has nothing to do with the child at all. it doesn't mater if the child has faith, or receives the gospel, or anything - he's only 8 days old, so he can't possibly understand even if someone did preach to him. so what i'm reading here is that it it doesn't comment at all about the state of the one being baptized.

the reply to that is that it's about the parents best intentions - which is also problematic, because that implies a person's salvation is be dependent on their parents, not on the Lord. that it's a matter of behavioral upbringing, and descendancy of the flesh, not of faith.

is this what scripture says?
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#10
it's not that i'm saying a child will never see or appreciate the effort.
it's that the picture i'm getting is that it has nothing to do with the child at all. it doesn't mater if the child has faith, or receives the gospel, or anything - he's only 8 days old, so he can't possibly understand even if someone did preach to him. so what i'm reading here is that it it doesn't comment at all about the state of the one being baptized.


the reply to that is that it's about the parents best intentions - which is also problematic, because that implies a person's salvation is be dependent on their parents, not on the Lord. that it's a matter of behavioral upbringing, and descendancy of the flesh, not of faith.

is this what scripture says?
Wow!!! I feel as if someone threw out my scripture and left me to be a selfish jerk. I'm going straight to my knees to be washed clean by Jesus.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#11
The point is that OT circumcision pointed to its antitype NT water baptism:
"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

New testament believers can be cut off from their people just as Abraham or Moses could have been due to breaking their covenant through disobedience to God's commands. (Gen 17:10-14; Exod 4:24-26)

We are born again upon being obedient to God's commands given on the Day of Pentecost; water baptism included.

Just as a child was given their official name on the day they were circumcised; so too, as born again children of God we take on the family name on the day we are water baptized in Jesus' name. (Eph 3:15)
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#12
it's not that i'm saying a child will never see or appreciate the effort.
it's that the picture i'm getting is that it has nothing to do with the child at all. it doesn't mater if the child has faith, or receives the gospel, or anything - he's only 8 days old, so he can't possibly understand even if someone did preach to him. so what i'm reading here is that it it doesn't comment at all about the state of the one being baptized.


the reply to that is that it's about the parents best intentions - which is also problematic, because that implies a person's salvation is be dependent on their parents, not on the Lord. that it's a matter of behavioral upbringing, and descendancy of the flesh, not of faith.

is this what scripture says?
The child references pertain to we as born again children of God. Note post #11.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#13
If parents promise to do all they can to teach a child, how can you have a mind set against it meaning anything to the child?
The child references pertain to we as born again children of God. Note post #11.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
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#14
The point is that OT circumcision pointed to its antitype NT water baptism:
"And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”

New testament believers can be cut off from their people just as Abraham or Moses could have been due to breaking their covenant through disobedience to God's commands. (Gen 17:10-14; Exod 4:24-26)

We are born again upon being obedient to God's commands given on the Day of Pentecost; water baptism included.

Just as a child was given their official name on the day they were circumcised; so too, as born again children of God we take on the family name on the day we are water baptized in Jesus' name. (Eph 3:15)
The circumcision an "old testament" ceremonial law and the old testament water baptism ceremonial law. They serve completely different functions. One speaks of the suffering beforehand of our bloody husband Christ and the other has to do with a personal desire of becoming a member of the priesthood of believers sent out with the gospel .

Where some got the idea it has its foundation in the new testament I think is where one of the problems begin. Making it a sign that some seek after to indicate they have the Holy Spirit as a sign seeker. Not wanting to give up self pride they make themselves wet

It would be like making tongues a new testament principle even though it has it foundation in Isaiah 28 .
 

crossnote

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Nov 24, 2012
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#15
One speaks of the suffering beforehand of our bloody husband Christ and the other has to do with a personal desire of becoming a member of the priesthood of believers sent out with the gospel .
That's a novel idea... Scripture?
 

Lanolin

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Dec 15, 2018
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#16
Interesting but isnt circumicision of the heart what takes place. I dont know that I got a new name after baptism but I suppose I was reborn a christian and needed a new name, as I was baptised in the name of Jesus. With circumcision I think its a bit of a stretch to relate it directly to water baptism because only males could be circumcised. Hmm

Although I know that women need to be baptised after their seven days of uncleanness on a regular basis in judaism, they go to a mikveh. Am not sure where that is in scripture, but aparently in judaism it has all these rules and regulations attached to it, the water must be fresh, not from the tap, it most be so deep, it must cover your entire body, you cant have any dirt under your fingernails, etc etc.
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
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#17
The circumcision an "old testament" ceremonial law and the old testament water baptism ceremonial law. They serve completely different functions. One speaks of the suffering beforehand of our bloody husband Christ and the other has to do with a personal desire of becoming a member of the priesthood of believers sent out with the gospel .

Where some got the idea it has its foundation in the new testament I think is where one of the problems begin. Making it a sign that some seek after to indicate they have the Holy Spirit as a sign seeker. Not wanting to give up self pride they make themselves wet

It would be like making tongues a new testament principle even though it has it foundation in Isaiah 28 .
We have only one God who is eternal, a God who never changes with our kind of time. Anything in the OT can be found fulfilled in the NT, meaning that all the OT refers to is there completed in the NT. The sacrificial system was perfected and completed in Christ, the temple is now our bodies, the guidance of the rituals is now the Holy Spirit, the Levi priesthood is now Christ. Water as a spiritual symbol is in the OT and is completed in the NT. The principles of our creator God never changes, they remain the very same.

To fully understand what the NT tells us we need to go to the OT to learn all about the NT origins.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
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#18
The circumcision an "old testament" ceremonial law and the old testament water baptism ceremonial law. They serve completely different functions. One speaks of the suffering beforehand of our bloody husband Christ and the other has to do with a personal desire of becoming a member of the priesthood of believers sent out with the gospel .

Where some got the idea it has its foundation in the new testament I think is where one of the problems begin. Making it a sign that some seek after to indicate they have the Holy Spirit as a sign seeker. Not wanting to give up self pride they make themselves wet

It would be like making tongues a new testament principle even though it has it foundation in Isaiah 28 .
Water baptism was introduced in the New Testament by John the Baptist. His purpose from conception was to proclaim the message of the arrival of Jesus Messiah and introduce water baptism for the remission of sin. This is clearly seen in the gospels, specifically in Luke, and throughout the Book of Acts. And is clearly seen when the church was birthed on the Day of Pentecost.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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#19
Interesting but isnt circumicision of the heart what takes place. I dont know that I got a new name after baptism but I suppose I was reborn a christian and needed a new name, as I was baptised in the name of Jesus. With circumcision I think its a bit of a stretch to relate it directly to water baptism because only males could be circumcised. Hmm

Although I know that women need to be baptised after their seven days of uncleanness on a regular basis in judaism, they go to a mikveh. Am not sure where that is in scripture, but aparently in judaism it has all these rules and regulations attached to it, the water must be fresh, not from the tap, it most be so deep, it must cover your entire body, you cant have any dirt under your fingernails, etc etc.
Scripture indicates the connection between circumcision and water baptism:
"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism,
wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead." Col 2:11-12
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
11,720
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#20
That's a novel idea... Scripture?
I think it has its foundation in scripture, if I could say a gospel idea..... woven throughout the word of God part of what 1 Peter 1:11 speaks of the suffering of, Christ our bloody Husband beforehand and the glory that did follow the time of reformation. It typifies circumcision. Christ cut off from the land of the living.

Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.1 Peter1:9-11

Exodus 4 gives us a parable that relates circumcision with Christ our bloody husband as picture of salvation..

And I say unto thee, Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, even thy firstborn. And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him.Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision. And the Lord said to Aaron, Go into the wilderness to meet Moses. And he went, and met him in the mount of God, and kissed him.Exodus 4:23 -27

In regard to water baptism which is not a sign that confirms a person has been born again. but as sign used when a new priest had a desire to become a priest.

Exodus 29:4And Aaron and his sons thou shalt bring unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, and shalt wash them with water.

God who had given over the faithless Jews to do what they should not of until "the time of kings in Israel" it had come to a end according to John 3:25. The water baptism ordinance as a ceremonial purifying rite for a Levite was being challenged. And now Jesus from the tribe of Judah became the promised high priest.

Psalm 110:4The Lord hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.

The circumcision ceremonial law was fulfilled at the time of reformation. The kingdom of priest after the new manner went from a Jew to women, men and children from all the nations of the world as promised in Joel,

Different purposes working together as one gospel.