Oh goody another OSAS thread!

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NoNameMcgee

Guest
your interpretation of 2 peter is wrong ricky

where do you see a born again believer losing salvation?

scripture has no contradictions

this is to those who are born again

vvv
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.



a genuine faith lasts... it isnt some thing you force or pretend or walk away from... you actually believe it and nothing can remove the truth of Christ from you


your posted verses in 2 peter is not about saved brothers and sisters......

no saving faith which God sees before He bestows a new heart and makes someone new
God is not decieved by pretenders

even if they are decieved themself into thinking they believe

then having no root they turn from their "faith"

2 peter is about this sort


1 john
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
 
J

joefizz

Guest
About as troll as a troll can get...
Everyone including the owner of this thread likes a bit of humor,but this a "serious" bible discussion so keep the joking stuff to a minimum or better yet "contribute" to this discussion.
 
Sep 4, 2012
14,424
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He is trying to create two separate classes of Christians. Those who are in Christ (and walk according to the Spirit and will be saved) and those who are in Christ (but do not walk according to the Spirit and will not be saved). Those who are in Christ are described as those who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:1,4).
First, the last half of Romans 8:1 is a variant that was not in the original writing. Second, even if it was original your interpretation of it is not believable.
 

notuptome

Senior Member
May 17, 2013
15,050
2,526
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Romans 8:
31 ¶ What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
1 ¶ I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,

To lose your salvation would require a force greater than God.

Remember Who it is that saved you. It's not yourself.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
your interpretation of 2 peter is wrong ricky

where do you see a born again believer losing salvation?

scripture has no contradictions

this is to those who are born again

vvv
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
and into an inheritance that can never perish, spoil or fade. This inheritance is kept in heaven for you, who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time. In all this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while you may have had to suffer grief in all kinds of trials. These have come so that the proven genuineness of your faith—of greater worth than gold, which perishes even though refined by fire—may result in praise, glory and honor when Jesus Christ is revealed. Though you have not seen him, you love him; and even though you do not see him now, you believe in him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the end result of your faith, the salvation of your souls.



a genuine faith lasts... it isnt some thing you force or pretend or walk away from... you actually believe it and nothing can remove the truth of Christ from you


your posted verses in 2 peter is not about saved brothers and sisters......

no saving faith which God sees before He bestows a new heart and makes someone new
God is not decieved by pretenders

even if they are decieved themself into thinking they believe

then having no root they turn from their "faith"

2 peter is about this sort


1 john
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root

their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves
, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith

trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith

______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)
never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
not those who fall away into unbelief
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,874
1,168
113
So what you are suggesting is that Christians can be on a faith "see-saw" and love it! You believe today and you are saved. You disbelieve tomorrow and you are unsaved. Then you pull up your socks, and believe on the following day, and you are saved all over again. Do you see how absurd and unbiblical this is?

On the other hand, if you heard the Gospel and were convicted and convinced, and then you truly believed on the Lord Jesus Christ and repented genuinely, then you would have been born again -- born from above, born of the Spirit, and born of God. You would become a new creature in Christ, and you would become an obedient child of God and servant of Christ. There would be no going back to your evil ways and your filthy lifestyle (if that is what you came out of).

Your salvation is NOT based on your believing right now. It is based purely on God's grace and Christ's finished work of redemption.
I am suggesting that "Christians can be on a faith see-saw and love it"? LOL! Those are your words - I never said anything like that!

You say "your salvation is NOT based on your believing right now. It is based purely on God's grace and Christ's finished work of redemption". Of course, you are right that God''s grace and Christ's finished work of redemption are the foundation of salvation. No argument with that. I wasn't trying to make a complete statement about salvation when I said that I am saved because I am believing in Christ today.
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
21,998
10,794
113
55
First, the last half of Romans 8:1 is a variant that was not in the original writing. Second, even if it was original your interpretation of it is not believable.
I notice
Do you understand the principle of faith?

The obedience of faith?

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

Do you understand the law of faith: How faith works?

JPT
Your true colors are really showing now. You define faith “as” obedience/works. Prior to my conversion, while still attending the RCC, I was taught that same error.

In regards to Romans 1:5, although Paul can speak of people’s initial response of choosing to believe the gospel as an act of obedience, in which he describes it as "obeying the gospel" (Romans 10:16; 1:16), the purpose of Paul’s apostleship was not merely to bring people to conversion but also to bring about transformed lives that were obedient to God.

Notice that Paul said they HAVE (already) received grace and apostleship FOR/UNTO obedience to the faith. Just as in Ephesians 2:10, Paul said that we are created in Christ Jesus FOR/UNTO good works. We are clearly saved FOR good works, NOT BY good works (Ephesians 2:8-10).

Paul did not say that they did not receive grace and apostleship until they produced obedience/works afterwards. We have access by faith into grace.. Romans 5:2 not faith "and obedience/works." We are saved through faith in Christ first, then "unto" obedience/good works.

Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Faith is faith and multiple acts of obedience which follow are works.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
mark 4

3 Hearken; Behold, there went out a sower to sow:

4 And it came to pass, as he sowed, some fell by the way side, and the fowls of the air came and devoured it up.

5 And some fell on stony ground, where it had not much earth; and immediately it sprang up, because it had no depth of earth:

6 But when the sun was up, it was scorched; and because it had no root, it withered away.

7 And some fell among thorns, and the thorns grew up, and choked it, and it yielded no fruit.

8 And other fell on good ground, and did yield fruit that sprang up and increased; and brought forth, some thirty, and some sixty, and some an hundred.


______________

14 The sower soweth the word.

15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.

called but not chosen <- no saving faith
not born again.... no root


their hearts were not transformed but rejected the seed
they would reject Him the moment they hear of the truth

____________

16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;

17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

again no root... not born again
no enduring faith


trials and tribulations were enough to prove they did not have a saving faith
______________

18 And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,

19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.


no saving faith... they turn from the knowledge of God to jump back into a life of living in and justifying sin and worldly pleasures instead of accepting they are wicked and need Him

(like the reprobate)

never born again

Romans 1
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

____________



20 And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.


theeeese are born again sons/daughters of God
Hebrews 10:39
39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


and unlike demons who know of Him but have no faith IN Him

there is fruit due to being rooted IN Him

(born again by grace through faith.... not works)

1 peter


3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

we are those who no doubt continue in the faith
______________
1 john 2
18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.

________
not those who fall away into unbelief
Perhaps 2 Peter should join the list of redacted scriptures in the MRV!
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
Besides we're off point again. The issue isn't osas. It's at what point does a debate become 'endless useless repetition'?
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
Besides we're off point again. The issue isn't osas. It's at what point does a debate become 'endless useless repetition'?
Seems that every issue presented in the BDF leads to "endless repetition" as you put it.
No one has ever changed their belief.
Maybe this forum should just be closed.
 

RickyZ

Senior Member
Sep 20, 2012
9,635
785
113
Seems that every issue presented in the BDF leads to "endless repetition" as you put it.
No one has ever changed their belief.
Maybe this forum should just be closed.
this is true, once any thread hits 3 pages it becomes mostly repetition. But this issue takes it to a whole other level. And aren't we warned against vain repetitions?

And I have seen people change beliefs on other issues. But not this one. Both sides seem to be pretty entrenched.

And the question was still not answered. Do you think it's right and Godly that's D's osas thread goes on for over 3,100 pages? Instead of spending some of that time and energy to do something productive, say like breaking the law to feed the poor?
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Besides we're off point again. The issue isn't osas. It's at what point does a debate become 'endless useless repetition'?
whoops im sorry

lol

i saw osas in the title

i thought it was the topic and replied to a couple posts that weren't true


my bad


hmm
honestly this debate will never be endless
the truth eventually wins
and
it is only useless repetition if the one in error is incapable of seeing the truth

but i have hopes to show the truth to those here that believe some of who God has adopted will be tossed into the lake of fire
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
this is true, once any thread hits 3 pages it becomes mostly repetition. But this issue takes it to a whole other level. And aren't we warned against vain repetitions?

And I have seen people change beliefs on other issues. But not this one. Both sides seem to be pretty entrenched.

And the question was still not answered. Do you think it's right and Godly that's D's osas thread goes on for over 3,100 pages? Instead of spending some of that time and energy to do something productive, say like breaking the law to feed the poor?
How about feeding the poor in your city. Not against the law, and there is a great need there.
Not to condemn those who want to help people all over the world, but there is more than enough need in our own neighborhoods to keep us busy.
I seem to run out of time and money before I can help all my neighbors in need.
 
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NoNameMcgee

Guest
Seems that every issue presented in the BDF leads to "endless repetition" as you put it.
No one has ever changed their belief.
Maybe this forum should just be closed.
thats not true....

i came to cc on my first account as a sinless perfectionist with a bit of a hebrew roots element

it was only through constant reproof from actual brothers and sisters in Christ to make me drop everything i spent years learning that i thought i knew back at Gods feet

and just beg Him to show me what He wants me to see....


took months to completely break me from works salvation - a false gospel

but praise God

He did it


and now the bible flows perfectly

things that once either confused me or seem to go against other verses are clear as day
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
Seems getting in the last word is a fault of all of us.
Even in this thread.
 
S

SpoonJuly

Guest
thats not true....

i came to cc on my first account as a sinless perfectionist with a bit of a hebrew roots element

it was only through constant reproof from actual brothers and sisters in Christ to make me drop everything i spent years learning that i thought i knew back at Gods feet

and just beg Him to show me what He wants me to see....


took months to completely break me from works salvation - a false gospel

but praise God

He did it


and now the bible flows perfectly

things that once either confused me or seem to go against other verses are clear as day

I agree with you. What I said was sarcasm.