OH NO!! Not another Halloween debate!

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GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#1
Well why not……‘tis the season.

Personally my own children enjoyed going out in the neighborhood to ‘trick or treat’ bringing home their plastic pumpkins with candy treasures to be shared with Mom. (Mom, shivering on the sidewalk waiting while they went door to door, should be entitled to a share in the loot)

We didn’t give one thought to Halloween being pagan, it was just a day for costumes and candy corn. My own children did not dress in ugly costumes as devils, skeletons or vampires. My kids dressed up in costumes depicting cowboys, princesses, Disney characters, et all.

Whatever choice one makes, it is to God alone that we are accountable.
We might consider that during a heated debate.

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ... Romans 14:4
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,061
1,899
113
#2
Well why not……‘tis the season.

Personally my own children enjoyed going out in the neighborhood to ‘trick or treat’ bringing home their plastic pumpkins with candy treasures to be shared with Mom. (Mom, shivering on the sidewalk waiting while they went door to door, should be entitled to a share in the loot)

We didn’t give one thought to Halloween being pagan, it was just a day for costumes and candy corn. My own children did not dress in ugly costumes as devils, skeletons or vampires. My kids dressed up in costumes depicting cowboys, princesses, Disney characters, et all.

Whatever choice one makes, it is to God alone that we are accountable.
We might consider that during a heated debate.

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ... Romans 14:4

What is important to Christian living is Christ and to live under Christ is to live with love. If we live with the love of accepting others we will not judge anyone based on Halloween.

But, if we can discuss Halloween without judging that seems to go along with a discussion of this kind, I think that discussion would be pleasing to the Lord and would help each of us find the best way to live for the Lord.

The church that Constantine started in 312AD is different from the church started at Pentecost. One of its features was to keep all the holidays that were celebrated by pagans, only putting a Christian twist to them like celebrating the solstice and spring festival. Constantine made these things legally accepted church doctrine but they were started way back in the time Paul was writing for he addressed it by addressing the different ways the church thought of the Sabbath. Romans 13:5-6. Paul tells us that different people have different beliefs, but for all it is done in honor of the Lord.

Personally, I don't see how making fun of demons can be honoring the Lord.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,362
113
#3
Candy corn. :D

Due to the Covid 19 there are all sorts of nifty rules being implemented prior to Halloween. I like the one that says candy is to be distributed in a no-contact form.
Right! Put bowls of candy on your deck so the kiddies can help themselves.....
Be out of bowls of candy after the first few kiddies visit your house.

No contact candy giving. Ah, but you contacted with the wrapped candy to put it in the bowl that you contacted with and that was in your home! Contact, contact, contact, in this time when we're to be made afraid of a virus that is transmitted through the air and of course on surfaces.
 

soggykitten

Well-known member
Jul 3, 2020
2,322
1,362
113
#4
What is important to Christian living is Christ and to live under Christ is to live with love. If we live with the love of accepting others we will not judge anyone based on Halloween.

But, if we can discuss Halloween without judging that seems to go along with a discussion of this kind, I think that discussion would be pleasing to the Lord and would help each of us find the best way to live for the Lord.

The church that Constantine started in 312AD is different from the church started at Pentecost. One of its features was to keep all the holidays that were celebrated by pagans, only putting a Christian twist to them like celebrating the solstice and spring festival. Constantine made these things legally accepted church doctrine but they were started way back in the time Paul was writing for he addressed it by addressing the different ways the church thought of the Sabbath. Romans 13:5-6. Paul tells us that different people have different beliefs, but for all it is done in honor of the Lord.

Personally, I don't see how making fun of demons can be honoring the Lord.
Jesus sent demons into swine and those swine stampeded off the edge of a cliff into the sea and drowned. Innocent pigs were made to receive demons Christ exorcised from the possessed one in scripture.
I'd think little tikes innocently dressing up as their favorite super hero is simply innocent children thrilled at the fact one night a year they can play dress up and get lots of candy for it.
And if it makes fun of demons, and demons feel made fun of, great! If for no other reason than pork is spared.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,928
3,348
113
#5
Our neighborhood is on a CV-19 lockdown. Hooray!!!
 

Blik

Senior Member
Dec 6, 2016
6,061
1,899
113
#6
Jesus sent demons into swine and those swine stampeded off the edge of a cliff into the sea and drowned. Innocent pigs were made to receive demons Christ exorcised from the possessed one in scripture.
I'd think little tikes innocently dressing up as their favorite super hero is simply innocent children thrilled at the fact one night a year they can play dress up and get lots of candy for it.
And if it makes fun of demons, and demons feel made fun of, great! If for no other reason than pork is spared.
That is what my kids did, there wasn't a thought of demons in any of our minds. It meant candy and dress up, only and a witches costume was only a costume that had nothing to do with demons.

The Lord tells us not to copy the pagans. The Lord used what we do physically to explain the spiritual. Until the Holy Spirit was given to all, the Lord used physical circumcision to explain belonging to the Lord and keeping ourselves separate. Could it possibly be that the Lord looks at Halloween as copying pagans, or as we look at it, as an innocent pleasure for the children?
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,928
3,348
113
#7
Candy corn. :D

Due to the Covid 19 there are all sorts of nifty rules being implemented prior to Halloween. I like the one that says candy is to be distributed in a no-contact form.
Right! Put bowls of candy on your deck so the kiddies can help themselves.....
Be out of bowls of candy after the first few kiddies visit your house.

No contact candy giving. Ah, but you contacted with the wrapped candy to put it in the bowl that you contacted with and that was in your home! Contact, contact, contact, in this time when we're to be made afraid of a virus that is transmitted through the air and of course on surfaces.
How about a rule where, "Kiddies cannot touch the candy for two weeks. Nov 14th LOL.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
17,368
1,812
113
#9
Well why not……‘tis the season.

Personally my own children enjoyed going out in the neighborhood to ‘trick or treat’ bringing home their plastic pumpkins with candy treasures to be shared with Mom. (Mom, shivering on the sidewalk waiting while they went door to door, should be entitled to a share in the loot)

We didn’t give one thought to Halloween being pagan, it was just a day for costumes and candy corn. My own children did not dress in ugly costumes as devils, skeletons or vampires. My kids dressed up in costumes depicting cowboys, princesses, Disney characters, et all.

Whatever choice one makes, it is to God alone that we are accountable.
We might consider that during a heated debate.

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ... Romans 14:4
Personally I have always loved Halloween even though I am unable to eat candy just the pumkin carving the old childhood movies of halloween the way everyone gets into the halloween spirit but yes it is indeed pagan and sadly there is a good reason I even went on a walk one night and there was this area that I used to love to walk in because of all the nature plus there were peach trees and I saw a group of people slaughtering a pig in a star shaped circle

Apparently it is a sepcific ritual sacrifice to a certain demon that involves black magic I ran but anyways people take halloween to a whole new level
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
654
141
43
#10
My 2 kopeks worth -

Guess it has to be done in two parts - Part 1

It’s difficult to ignore the onslaught, predominantly from various religious sites, that starts about this time every year. The internet begins to be flooded with articles and videos concerning the supposed origin of many of the present-day traditions associated with Halloween. Some are subtle in their message, whilst others loudly tout it as being nothing short of the “birthday of Satan himself.”

Many videos will interview so-called “ex-witches” who, for the most part, to say demonstrate very little understanding of the religious path they supposedly ‘followed for years’ would be a kindness. So much so, that I suspect many are simply ‘plants’ used by the creators of the respective videos.

In attempting to comment on the complete misunderstandings (due to either lack of research, or being taught incorrectly), and utter absurdities circulating about the supposed origins of both Halloween and its assumed predecessor, Samhain, as well as their associated customs, it is honestly difficult to know where to even begin; to encompass it all would quite easily make for a small book.

Modern Halloween as we know it today is just that – a modernly invented ‘holiday’ combining elements of an earlier American tradition called “Hell Night”, along with a healthy dose of good old “Hollywood” thrown in for good measure. Virtually all American customs associated with Halloween originated right around the 1920’s - 1930’s or so. While there are some vestigial elements from pre-Christian religions in some of the customs (the "apple" traditions - bobbing for apples for example, but that's from the Romans, not the Celts), the modern costumes, the blood, the gore, the reveling in death and destruction, the candy, even ‘trick or treat’ itself, dates no earlier than 1900’s America. In short, it’s a relatively new phenomenon and represents a mix of cultures, capitalism, and accommodation.

It's simply not a holiday that has close ties to the ancient past, nor does it have some ‘pagan’ antecedent, nor is a continuation of several ancient customs, as some would have one believe.

To be completely fair, the former American tradition known as ‘Hell Night’ had its ultimate origins in the relatively harmless pranks originating in Ireland and Scotland on Halloween. It is only here in America where it became extremely destructive and vandalistic in nature. A social and physical manifestation of the frustrating economic times of the depression era.

Perhaps the most difficult aspect of researching the various origins, traditions, and, ‘assumed truths’ about Halloween, is sifting through all the data and doing a ‘deep dive’ into historical records. In short, separating what is historical fact from what is historical ‘myth’ and ‘(urban) legend’. What we find, is that the origin of most Halloween traditions/beliefs comes from the latter (historical fiction), rather than the former (historical fact).

Many people seem to associate modern Halloween with three things: The old Celtic New Year’s celebration of Samhain (in asserting that most of Halloween’s customs can be traced to Samhain celebrations); Satanism (asserting that Halloween’s origins are Satanic as evidenced by the many Satanists who use this day to promote their beliefs); and All Saints Day (asserting that the early church established the holiday to “Christianize” Samhain). Upon a more critical examination however, these associations fall more into the categories of wishful thinking and urban legend than actual historic fact.

Halloween and Samhain – To say that modern Halloween’s connection to Samhain (that’s “SAH-win” by the way) is incredibly tenuous at best, would be an overstatement. Despite the horror stories one typically hears, the truth is, that painfully little is actually known about it. To attempt to connect Samhain to the traditions of modern Halloween is, for the most part, wishful thinking – it’s just not possible. The connection just isn't anywhere near as strong as some would apparently like it to be, but it seems that this supposed connection is also from where the bulk of the absurdities describing Halloween’s “pagan past” derive. The shift now seems to be away from the erroneous and utterly ludicrous “Samhain as Celtic Lord of the Dead” to the equally erroneous “Samhain as the Celtic Feast of the Dead”.

Most accounts we have of it come from early Christian Irish monks who, for obvious reasons, painted Samhain in the worst light possible, embellishing their stories with superstitions that were current in their day. In reality, they knew little more about Samhain then than we do today. By most historical accounts, Samhain seems to have been a time to honor ancestors, prepare for winter, and celebrate the final harvest of the year. Cattle that were deemed too weak to survive the winter were slaughtered for food. Indeed, the Welsh name for the month of November is Tachwedd , an old word that means "slaughter". These customs sound a lot like most European holidays from October-January. Indeed, the word ‘Samhain’ itself in Irish Gaelic (Samhuain in Scotts Gaelic, and Sauin in Manx Gaelic) simply means “summer’s end”. In these languages, it is also the name for the entire month of November (e.g. mìos an t-Samhain in Scotts Gaelic). Samhain shares a date with Halloween and perhaps a “feeling”, but really not much more. Indeed, so much of Halloween “feels” Pagan that attempts to connect those things to ancient Samhain simply “feels right”.

Halloween and Satanism – Halloween's association with Satanic worship and practices though real, is a very modern phenomena (1960's to present), and, of course, has zero connection to the pre-Christian Celtic holiday Samhain. Most people do not realize that the connection here is no more than 50-60 years old. For those who observe Samhain, Satanists are regarded with just as much disgust and disdain, indeed, if not more so, than Christians regard them - Satanists are responsible for appropriating this day to not only promulgate their beliefs, but to completely twist the day into something it simply never was. Not to defend them in any way , but, again, to be completely fair, it should be noted that most supposed practices of these groups are, again, based upon complete misinformation, supposition, and urban legend; not actual fact.

Many of their assumed and supposed practices stem from the so-called “Satanic Panic”, a conspiracy theory that swept across America in the 1980’s and early 1990’s. It seems however, that some Christian denominations are doing their darndest to bring it back. Interviews and ‘testimonies’ from ‘Satanic Panic’ holdovers, as well as newcomers such as John Ramirez, are just one of many examples. Others, such as the late Anton LeVey, completely capitalized to the extreme on people’s fear and assumptions.

One in particular has become perhaps one of the most asserted beliefs, and one that LeVey and his ilk completely capitalized on, is that Halloween is the “most important day of the year” for Satanists – it’s not; the most important day of the year for a Satanist is his/her own birthday (a rather narcissistic lot, these). This is a perfect example of how purposeful misinformation evolves into an assumed “truth”.
 

Kavik

Senior Member
Mar 25, 2017
654
141
43
#11
Part 2 -

Lastly, All Saint’s Day - no matter how much some people like to promote and honestly believe that just the opposite is true, All Saint’s Day/All Souls Day/Halloween, and Samhain developed completely independent of each other. That’s just historical fact.

To state it briefly, the date of 1. November for All Saint's Day was practiced in continental Europe long before the date was formerly fixed by the RCC to November 1st, and long before said change got to what is now the UK & Ireland; which was centuries after the time of Druids and Samhain proper.

In addition, most people are not aware that Samhain itself is a movable feast day; the exact date varies from year to year depending on when the autumnal equinox and winter solstice fall. In 2020, Samhain proper falls on 6/7.Nov. Historically, it occurred with the culmination of the Seven Sisters (the Pleiades). In modern times, due to all the changes in the calendar. this equates to about 21. November.

To assert that the establishment of All Saint’s Day (and All Souls Day on 2.NOV) was the early church’s attempt to “Christianize Samhain” just does not stand to reason. Why would the church change a major feast day affecting all of Western Christendom just to accommodate a small group of Christians who lived on, what would be considered at that time, some remote group of islands in the middle of nowhere?

Again, all three holidays, Halloween, All Saint’s Day, and Samhain share a common date and perhaps a “feeling”, but that’s really about it. Indeed, so much of Halloween “feels” Pagan that attempts to connect those things to ancient Samhain simply “feels right”.

I completely agree in that if you celebrate a holiday, you are, in a sense, honoring the occasion; however, like many holidays that do actually have pre-Christian antecedents (e.g. Christmas), I would argue that the “pagan-ness” has been effectively ‘bred out’ of these holidays for centuries. Holidays such as Halloween have become more “cultural events” than 'religious' holidays.

Another cultural tradition bears mentioning here as well. There seems to be a relatively new ‘tradition’, if you will, of associating Halloween with the Central American ‘Dias de los Muertos” – “The Day of the Dead”. The assertion here is that people are “worshiping the dead”, or something along those lines. This is yet another cultural celebration that has absolutely no connection to Halloween but shares a common “theme” or “feeling” (the date, of course, is a result of the introduction of Christianity as its traditions closely resemble All Saints’ Day).

I’m not suggesting that Halloween does not have its share of ‘evil’ – unfortunately, there are people who seem to be doing their 'best' to make it that way, but the day in and of itself is not inherently evil.

Indeed Samhain/Halloween is to some people a very spiritual and magickal time of the year; for some it’s a time of fun and candy, perhaps a way to celebrate Fall in general. Still for others, perhaps a time to contemplate their own mortality since the modern holiday mocks death. Some perhaps are not quite sure what to make of it and prefer to steer clear of it, but however you wish to celebrate it….or not – Halloween, in and of itself, is only ‘evil’ if one chooses to make it so.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
12,705
2,562
113
#13
Well why not……‘tis the season.

Personally my own children enjoyed going out in the neighborhood to ‘trick or treat’ bringing home their plastic pumpkins with candy treasures to be shared with Mom. (Mom, shivering on the sidewalk waiting while they went door to door, should be entitled to a share in the loot)

We didn’t give one thought to Halloween being pagan, it was just a day for costumes and candy corn. My own children did not dress in ugly costumes as devils, skeletons or vampires. My kids dressed up in costumes depicting cowboys, princesses, Disney characters, et all.

Whatever choice one makes, it is to God alone that we are accountable.
We might consider that during a heated debate.

Who are you to pass judgment on the servant of another? It is before his own master that he stands or falls. And he will be upheld, for the Lord is able to make him stand. ... Romans 14:4
I have always used Halloween as a great opportunity to pass out gospel tracts to all the kids who come by, with candy of course. The gospel tracts get into homes and hopefully are read by many people. Gospel tracts can be used to plant a seed and lead people to Jesus.

https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=1010&ue=d
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#14
I don't follow, what's a CV lockdown have to do with loving thy neighbour?
Your statement looked you were glad about the inconvenience to your neighbors
Wasn't what the Hoorah was for?
NO matter, no biggie.
 

crossnote

Senior Member
Nov 24, 2012
29,928
3,348
113
#15
Your statement looked you were glad about the inconvenience to your neighbors
Wasn't what the Hoorah was for?
NO matter, no biggie.
Actually, it had more to do with my wife's 'convenience' as she dreads that night.
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#16
Part 2 -

Lastly, All Saint’s Day - no matter how much some people like to promote and honestly believe that just the opposite is true, All Saint’s Day/All Souls Day/Halloween, and Samhain developed completely independent of each other. That’s just historical fact.

Indeed Samhain/Halloween is to some people a very spiritual and magickal time of the year; for some it’s a time of fun and candy, perhaps a way to celebrate Fall in general. Still for others, perhaps a time to contemplate their own mortality since the modern holiday mocks death. Some perhaps are not quite sure what to make of it and prefer to steer clear of it, but however you wish to celebrate it….or not – Halloween, in and of itself, is only ‘evil’ if one chooses to make it so.
I guarantee you I will NEVER read anything that comes in 2 parts or takes longer than 12 seconds to read.
I'm sure you have good information to share
Actually, it had more to do with my wife's 'convenience' as she dreads that night.
So turn the ligjts off and pretend you aren't home!
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
113
#18
I have always used Halloween as a great opportunity to pass out gospel tracts to all the kids who come by, with candy of course. The gospel tracts get into homes and hopefully are read by many people. Gospel tracts can be used to plant a seed and lead people to Jesus.

https://www.chick.com/products/tract?stk=1010&ue=d
Never dismiss the power of a tract........I was brought to my knees with a tract.
A tract that I was tossing out, but "decided" to read before I did.
God can use anything........make rocks to cry out.....make a donkey talk........truly it is amazing grace.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
9,787
2,453
113
#19
People dressing up like devils going to houses decorated with devils.
What does that do to children?
The season of devil movies on tv.
Christian's can reframe it into scenes of Jesus with his foot on the devil.
Or Jesus preparing to run the devil through with His Sword.
And slogans.
"I love this season. It reminds me how completely the devil was defeated."