Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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An iconic American radio voice and storyteller. He was famous for telling part of a story then pausing and then telling the remainder of the tale. Usually they had an unexpected twist ending.
I looked him up... thank you for explaining. The rest of the story, huh? .:unsure:

Backing up for a bit for context... I was at a very low point of my life then, after the dissolution of my
marriage and multiple failed pregnancies, when I went to see that movie about Jesus. It was Passover,
1988. I was thirty three years old, and it did not escape my notice that I was the same age Jesus is
believed to have been when He was crucified. I thought about Jesus and God a lot... wondering,
pondering, discussing with others various theories when opportunity to do so were presented.
I felt the presence of angels, whether real or imagined I cannot say for sure. However, I do know
I was in a great deal of emotional pain, and those who knew me best were concerned for my well
being, fearing the worst, and not for the first time in my life. The sense of loss and failure and shame
I felt were crushing. Knowing God loved and forgave me helped alleviate some of that pain.


So I walked away from that experience thinking it was too bad God chose to let me know I was
loved and forgiven in a church. How funny are we? I became more determined to discover the truth
and purpose and meaning of life, in a manner of speaking. While ignoring the Bible of course, since
those people were all wrong about what they believed, right? I eventually became involved with a
man who I discovered was very abusive. People again feared for my life. I must have thought it was
what I deserved, and in retrospect I certainly did not understand what love was, or how to identify
abuse, and protect myself from malfeasance by having healthy boundaries and speaking my truths.


I was also drinking and drugging. By the age of thirty nine and at the end of yet another relationship,
again in a lot of emotional pain, I cried out to God for help. I had sat down to write out my feelings, but
was so sick and tired of feeling the way I did, the thought of writing it all out rather repulsed me, and
it was as if the cry just arose spontaneously from out of the depths of my being. Please, God, help me.


Within days I was clean and sober after having used mind and mood altering substances regularly over
the course of the past twenty four years. I lost the desire to use. I entered more seriously into a process
of recovery in twelve step fellowships, where we were encouraged to pray, and seek God's will for our lives.


I have already skipped over some parts but must leave off here for now. Thank you for asking! .:)
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Perhaps we can just stop a moment and pray for the families that just lost three children in Nashville today. There was a school shooting, so far we know three children have died. I know this is usually posted in news, but just hearing it now on the news. The children were very young. I hope no more have lost their lives.
Yes, by all means. Tragic.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
15,210
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I looked him up... thank you for explaining. The rest of the story, huh? .:unsure:

Backing up for a bit for context... I was at a very low point of my life then, after the dissolution of my
marriage and multiple failed pregnancies, when I went to see that movie about Jesus. It was Passover,
1988. I was thirty three years old, and it did not escape my notice that I was the same age Jesus is
believed to have been when He was crucified. I thought about Jesus and God a lot... wondering,
pondering, discussing with others various theories when opportunity to do so were presented.
I felt the presence of angels, whether real or imagined I cannot say for sure. However, I do know
I was in a great deal of emotional pain, and those who knew me best were concerned for my well
being, fearing the worst, and not for the first time in my life. The sense of loss and failure and shame
I felt were crushing. Knowing God loved and forgave me helped alleviate some of that pain.


So I walked away from that experience thinking it was too bad God chose to let me know I was
loved and forgiven in a church. How funny are we? I became more determined to discover the truth
and purpose and meaning of life, in a manner of speaking. While ignoring the Bible of course, since
those people were all wrong about what they believed, right? I eventually became involved with a
man who I discovered was very abusive. People again feared for my life. I must have thought it was
what I deserved, and in retrospect I certainly did not understand what love was, or how to identify
abuse, and protect myself from malfeasance by having healthy boundaries and speaking my truths.


I was also drinking and drugging. By the age of thirty nine and at the end of yet another relationship,
again in a lot of emotional pain, I cried out to God for help. I had sat down to write out my feelings, but
was so sick and tired of feeling the way I did, the thought of writing it all out rather repulsed me, and
it was as if the cry just arose spontaneously from out of the depths of my being. Please, God, help me.


Within days I was clean and sober after having used mind and mood altering substances regularly over
the course of the past twenty four years. I lost the desire to use. I entered more seriously into a process
of recovery in twelve step fellowships, where we were encouraged to pray, and seek God's will for our lives.


I have already skipped over some parts but must leave off here for now. Thank you for asking! .:)
Reminds me a little of the miracle Jesus performed on the blind man where he initially saw unclearly, then later in full.
 

ThereRoseaLamb

Well-known member
Jan 17, 2023
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Yes, by all means. Tragic.
Three adults were also killed. Not sure but one may be the shooter. May God bind the broken hearted and give peace in this horrific situation. May they feel His arms around them in their grief. Amen
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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The reformed argument isn't that man's cognitive ability was rendered inoperable, but corrupted. This coupled with the loss of spiritual sensitivity renders man incapable of seeking after God in an effectual manner. Man is, however, able to comprehend God through creation and conscience. According to Romans 1 this renders him culpable.
Ok, man can comprehend God exists but is rendered incapable of seeking after Him. Got it.

Because of Adam and Eve, all are born loving darkness, not light - it is in man's nature. Loving darkness is loving one's works for salvation

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

[Psa 58:3 KJV] 3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
Jesus said, "you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart" so, even if I only have a heart the size of a garbanzo bean, He knows when I'm looking for Him half-heartedly or when I'm looking for Him in earnest. Would this not influence the choice of who God reveals Himself to.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Ok, man can comprehend God exists but is rendered incapable of seeking after Him. Got it.
Man is rebellious and wants to live by his own standards as opposed to God's.

This was the choice Adam and Eve made in the garden. God said don't, but they
decided it would be better to do instead. They chose their way above God's.


The natural man is hostile towards God. It is a hard pill to
swallow when we are told it is because we love our sin.


Oy! Does that stick in people's craw!
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
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Man is rebellious and wants to live by his own standards as opposed to God's.

This was the choice Adam and Eve made in the garden. God said don't, but they
decided it would be better to do instead. They chose their way above God's.


The natural man is hostile towards God. It is a hard pill to
swallow when we are told it is because we love our sin.


Oy! Does that stick in people's craw!
I get that man is prone to sin. That is obvious since there is no one that has fallen into it. And everyone is embarrassed of their stink I don't care how loudly they may fart. But sin rendering man incapable of making any right choices whatsoever? I'm don't quite follow the logic which leads to that conclusion.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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I get that man is prone to sin. That is obvious since there is no one that has fallen into it. And everyone is embarrassed of their stink I don't care how loudly they may fart. But sin rendering man incapable of making any right choices whatsoever? I'm don't quite follow the logic which leads to that conclusion.
No, that is the false narrative some have constructed in their arguments against total depravity, which
is actually embraced by both Arminians and Calvinists, and Molinists also, although they have modified
it to radical depravity. Man can and does do good, but without faith it is... impossible to please God. It is
not about living a good life and/or being a good person. It is about agreeing with God about your state
before Him, and we all fall short and are unworthy by our own merits of the great love and care He lavishes
upon us. It is about acknowledging our need of Him, and our gratitude toward Him for what He sent His Son
to do on our behalf. People devoid of faith cannot do that, regardless of how altruistic they are.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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Ok, man can comprehend God exists but is rendered incapable of seeking after Him. Got it.



Jesus said, "you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart" so, even if I only have a heart the size of a garbanzo bean, He knows when I'm looking for Him half-heartedly or when I'm looking for Him in earnest. Would this not influence the choice of who God reveals Himself to.
As an addendum to my quote to aid in understanding, when I said man is incapable of seeking for God according to the reformed position:

When man sinned, his cognitive and emotional estates were corrupted but not to the point of losing all reasoning or emotions common to man. This is why he can through conscience and creation know of the existence of God. This part you understand.

The spiritual part of man died in the fall...it did become inoperable. Hence, Ephesians 2:1 says we are dead in our trespasses and sins. We are in a sense dead in our ability to know God intimately. While our minds and emotions can relate and function with others and in the physical world, man has lost the ability to participate in the spiritual realm. Ephesians 2:1-3 reveals this estate to be dead, dominated, and doomed. What the Bible calls the kingdom of darkness. All of this the result of the fall and what we are born into naturally.
The reformed position isn't that man on some level can't understand this or come to this conclusion in his fallen estate. It merely believes man is helpless to do anything about it. He is predisposed in this condition to live for himself and reject the gospel. It is foolishness to him. And aside from an act of God on his behalf, man will remain in this estate. And that's why Paul in verse 4 of Ephesians 2 opens with...But God... God, seeing man in this estate, has mercy and grants grace.
Hope that clarifies some.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Jesus said, "you will find Me when you search for Me with all your heart" so, even if I only have a heart the size of a garbanzo bean, He knows when I'm looking for Him half-heartedly or when I'm looking for Him in earnest. Would this not influence the choice of who God reveals Himself to.
Disagree. As we are told:

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

For the heart to be changed, God must give a new heart. That only comes through spiritual rebirth. And spiritual rebirth only comes as
a gift of God, but not to everyone. Man, of himself, is incapable/unable to do so. So, in having the un-reborn heart of natural man, he will/can never truly seek after God.

[Rom 3:11 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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The reformed position isn't that man on some level can't understand this or come to this conclusion in his fallen estate. It merely believes man is helpless to do anything about it. He is predisposed in this condition to live for himself and reject the gospel. It is foolishness to him. And aside from an act of God on his behalf, man will remain in this estate. And that's why Paul in verse 4 of Ephesians 2 opens with...But God... God, seeing man in this estate, has mercy and grants grace.
Hope that clarifies some.
It is also a fact that without help from God Himself, none would seek Him. I have heard it said
that man was created to worship, and when not in subjection to God, mankind worships all
manner of other things: money, power, and prestige being chief among them. It is nothing
short of idolatry. Man worships himself and creation instead of worshipping the Creator.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
56,345
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Disagree. As we are told:

[Jer 17:9 KJV] 9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

For the heart to be changed, God must give a new heart. That only comes through spiritual rebirth. And spiritual rebirth only comes as
a gift of God, but not to everyone. Man, of himself, is incapable/unable to do so. So, in having the un-reborn heart of natural man, he will/can never truly seek after God.

[Rom 3:11 KJV] 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

[Eze 36:26 KJV] 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live. :)
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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It is also a fact that without help from God Himself, none would seek Him. I have heard it said
that man was created to worship, and when not in subjection to God, mankind worships all
manner of other things: money, power, and prestige being chief among them. It is nothing
short of idolatry. Man worships himself and creation instead of worshipping the Creator.
Unfortunate but true.

Another sad aside is that in this fallen estate, man may be separated from God, but doesn't lose his need of God.
God never made man to live independently of Him. Even Adam and Eve, who were made perfect, still needed God in their lives to be fully satisfied.
Fallen man, unable to relate to God, doesn't lose that need; he merely attempts to fill it with things that may temporarily satisfy but never fully or lastingly. That's why people turn to relationships, alcohol and self actualization. These all end up proving themselves vain and empty and the individual has destroyed themselves in the process.
Quite fortunately, God comes to such broken people and gives beauty for the ashes of their lives.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Unfortunate but true.

Another sad aside is that in this fallen estate, man may be separated from God, but doesn't lose his need of God.
God never made man to live independently of Him. Even Adam and Eve, who were made perfect, still needed God in their lives to be fully satisfied.
Fallen man, unable to relate to God, doesn't lose that need; he merely attempts to fill it with things that may temporarily satisfy but never fully or lastingly. That's why people turn to relationships, alcohol and self actualization. These all end up proving themselves vain and empty and the individual has destroyed themselves in the process.
Quite fortunately, God comes to such broken people and gives beauty for the ashes of their lives.
I agree with all you have said except for Adam and Eve being made perfect .:D. God proclaimed them good,
and had they chosen to eat from the Tree of Life instead of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and
evil, they made have attained the perfection we are all set for once we submit our lives to Him and His plan
for humanity, which was purposed from before the foundation of the world, for we are perfected in Christ
.:)
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.:)
Yes, and the descendants are spiritual descendants, not physical descendants.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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I agree with all you have said except for Adam and Eve being made perfect .:D. God proclaimed them good,
and had they chosen to eat from the Tree of Life instead of the forbidden tree of the knowledge of good and
evil, they made have attained the perfection we are all set for once we submit our lives to Him and His plan
for humanity, which was purposed from before the foundation of the world, for we are perfected in Christ
.:)
I used the term perfect to depict sinlessness, not absolute perfection. Faultless.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Yes, and the descendants are spiritual descendants, not physical descendants.
Romans 9:6b-8 Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel... It is the children of promise who are regarded as offspring.
:)