Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ResidentAlien]

This passage says the GIFTS (plural) if God are irrevocable

The promise of Israel as a nation is only one gift.. So in context of the passage, if Paul was ONLY speaking about this one gift. he would say the GIFT (singular) and calling God made to them are irrevocable

Many people use Israel and gods calling of them as an example of our salvation

If God will not keep his promise to them, why do we think he will keep his promise to us.

The context demands that the gifts and promises here are gifts and promises He made to Israel. You might stretch it to mean salvation but that's not what the text says.

So is the best one you have?

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The context demands that the gifts and promises here are gifts and promises He made to Israel. You might stretch it to mean salvation but that's not what the text says.

So is the best one you have?

The context does not demand anything

Paul said the GIFTS (plural)

the passage spoke of one gift that was made to Isreal.

Paul is saying in context every gift and every call is irrevocable

I am still waiting for you to answer why when Jesus said whoever eats the bread he came to give will never die

If salvation can be lost for forfiet. we can eat that food. and yet still die.

can you explain how that is not irrevocable?

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

...

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

He will LOSE NOTHING

According to you. He will lose people. because his promise is invalid

That verse doesn't mean what you think it means. It says it is the Father's Will that Christ lose none. But that will not necessarily happen. Another verse says God wills all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4). Does that mean universalism is true?

No, because just because God wants something to happen, doesn't mean it will happen. You have to say to God, "Thy will be done" as the Lord taught in the Lord's Prayer. And He confirmed again that we must do the Father's Will to be saved when He said: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mat 7:21). OSASers seem to be saying that saying "Lord, Lord" is enough to enter Heaven.

 

[Magenta]

Hebrews 12:1-3
Jesus is the author and perfecter of my faith My trust is in Him... not myself.

 

[ResidentAlien]

I am still waiting for you to answer why when Jesus said whoever eats the bread he came to give will never die

If salvation can be lost for forfiet. we can eat that food. and yet still die.

can you explain how that is not irrevocable?

I'll be honest, I'd like to answer your question but I can't even begin to comprehend your logic. So, sorry, I don't have an answer for that.

I've asked the question and it seems Romans 11:29 is the best anyone can come up with, and it isn't even talking about our salvation. So go ahead, keep throwing up walls of scripture that make it look like you know something. You had your chance.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Ok, let's assume OSAS is true. According to OSAS, saying a 30 seconds sinner's prayer like: "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. I accept You as my Lord and Savior. Please forgive me and come into my heart by Your Spirit" is enough to go to Heaven for all eternity. Now, nothing wrong with the sinner's prayer. I've said it myself many times and led others to say it also. Yet, it doesn't stop there. After that, one must be Baptized, if never Baptized, or start living a Christian life again if one fell away. Receive Communion, read the Bible, fellowship with other believers, love God and neighbor, forgive one another etc.

But here's the thing: suppose OSAS is objectively true, then also us NON-OSASers are already saved, and nothing we can ever do or not, according to OSAS, can change that. And if so, then NON-OSASers lose nothing anyway, and are also already saved.

And suppose it is true that sins now cause us to lose only rewards, and not salvation, even so, why suffer loss and lose the rewards, and be saved only through fire (as 1 Cor 3:15) says, which means to be saved in a painful way after the Lord's discipline? Much better to labor much for the Lord, in Prayer, Fasting, Almsgiving, Evangelism etc, Martyrdom if necessary, and other good works, in order, as 2 Pet 1 says, not only to go to Heaven, but also to secure a rich welcome/reward there.

Again, what do non-OSASers lose, objectively speaking, even if OSAS were true?

Meanwhile, if OSAS is not true, then those who recognize that have many advantages.

In the end, every Christian, OSAS or non OSAS, hopes God's Grace will help us persevere in the Faith and in love until death. God Bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The NT talks about losing salvation and being cast into the lake of fire

Matthew 18:9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.

This verse is spoken to believers.

If this verse did, then Jesus was lying in John 5:24 and 10:28.

No unbeliever who does not bow the knee to Jesus as Lord would "pluck out their eye" nor would they enter into life even if they did.

Remember that Jesus taught in parables. He wasn't being literal.

Matthew 18:15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. 16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

A heathen man is not saved. This is clearly referring to a "brother" who is in the church and would/should recognize the authority in the church, which of course is the Lord Jesus the incarnated word of God. This verse is an explanation of verse 9 where he talks about you being cast into the lake of fire. But it is the other side of the coin. The church needs to pluck this brother out and cast him from thee lest he cause the entire church to be cast into the lake of fire (ie the apostasy and false prophets like Balaam and prophetesses like Jezebel).

The verse doesn't say the man BECOMES a heathen. It says such a man should be treated as one. Big difference.

It's called excommunication. That's what Paul told the Corinthian church to do with the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5.

 

[Runningman]

Judas was referred to as unclean. That surely means he did not believe. He was called a son of
perdition. That means he was doomed to destruction. He was never saved. Jesus called him a devil.
Jesus also said that it would be better for Judas if he had not been born. Jesus knew from the beginning
who they were who did not believe, and who it was that would betray Him. That is not making
a differentiation. They are one and the same thing.

and yet the context says they believed, that includes Judas. Though he was a betrayer, it can't be said he was an unbeliver.

John 6:66-71KJV
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The context does not demand anything

Paul said the GIFTS (plural)

the passage spoke of one gift that was made to Isreal.

Paul is saying in context every gift and every call is irrevocable

In fact, if you want to include the chapters previous to ch 11, we find Paul mentioning God's gifts several times:

Rom 1:11, 5:15, 6:23 Why wouldn't these gifts be included, since they are in the same epistle.

I am still waiting for you to answer why when Jesus said whoever eats the bread he came to give will never die

If salvation can be lost for forfiet. we can eat that food. and yet still die.

can you explain how that is not irrevocable?

Great question!

 

[Runningman]

Your error is in the very common ABUSE of the Greek present tense. Many claim that one must continue to believe in order to continue to be saved. That is quite false. There is no scholarly evidence that the present tense means the result of an action is dependent upon that action continuing. The reason I quote John 5:24 and 10:28 so often is to drive home the point of eternal security.

In John 5:24 Jesus said that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". That obviously means the MOMENT one believes they POSSESS eternal life.

Then, in John 10:28 Jesus said that those He gives eternal life (Jn 5:24) SHALL NEVER PERISH. So the present tense doesn't "trump" what Jesus said. The MOMENT one believes, they POSSESS eternal life and shall NEVER PERISH. It is that simple.


See above.


Yeah, everyone would like to see a verse with words that they want to see. But God doesn't work that way. He gave us His Word, written the way He wanted it written. It is clear enough but we have to have the discernment to understand it.

And the notion that believing must continue for salvation to continue isn't legit. And John 5:24 with 10:28 proves that it isn't.


No, Jesus was just making the point that FROM the MOMENT of belief forward, the believer HAS CROSS OVER (past tense) from spiritual death to eternal life. That's a one way trip.

No errors on my end as far as I can tell.

Could you explain what you mean by the sentence "that death is possible until AFER the resurrection". The Bible says that "it is appointed for man to die once, and after that, the judgment."

Only those resurrected to life can not die again as the passages I provided say.

 

[ZNP]

If you question the doctrine because there are other verses that you are trying to reconcile with this doctrine they will

I would like to talk about the common salvation just as Jude said but instead we have to be derailed and focus on two verses in the NT to the exclusion and dismissal of all others.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1. accuse you of Pride (#1,258)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The bible tells us explicitly to not speak insults to brothers and sisters.

2. Explain away the problematic verse (#1,256, 1,216)

Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

I subscribe to eternal salvation and I embrace the verses they quote and I have told them so. The problem with this doctrine is they focus on two verses and ignore what Jude is saying here. I will not do that.

3. Dismiss the harm from their teaching (#1,250)

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

They don't deny that these lascivious men use this doctrine.

4. Phony baloney doctrines (#1,246, 1,236)

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

No one can deny that we are seeing this today in churches that have Drag queen shows. That is but one example of the depravity taking place by those who despise the Lord Jesus and the word of God. However, it seems to me that one other constant with all the apostate churches is OSAS.

5. When asked for a verse that says what they are saying they can’t provide it and so say “you need to connect the dots” (#1,245, #1,243)

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

All we ask is a verse that clearly says what they say it says. This doctrine is a cloud without water. I know many genuine believers hold to this doctrine, but so do all the FreeMason phony baloney pastors. Show me an apostate church that is described by these verses and it seems they are always teaching OSAS.

6. Make false accusations like saying that we are claiming Jesus' promise is invalid (#1,240)

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Once again I will repeat for the fourth time at least, I embrace all these verses and do believe the Bible teaches that once you are justified by faith that will not be taken away. However, I refuse to teach OSAS because it totally ignores, diminishes, or explains away much of the Bible. They ignore sanctification and glorification with this doctrine.

7. Even they admit there are caveats to their doctrine which they would never know the answer to (#1,237, 1,232, 1,222)

No one knows what it means to "suffer loss" or what it means to be "cast out into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth". No one knows who is truly saved and who isn't. No one is the judge, only Jesus is. No one will be able to use this doctrine OSAS as a defense when they have to stand before the Lord Jesus.

 

[ZNP]

If this verse did, then Jesus was lying in John 5:24 and 10:28.


Remember that Jesus taught in parables. He wasn't being literal.


The verse doesn't say the man BECOMES a heathen. It says such a man should be treated as one. Big difference.

It's called excommunication. That's what Paul told the Corinthian church to do with the incestuous man in 1 Cor 5:5.

I agree this is talking about excommunication and it is quite obvious when you read the two epistles to Corinth that the goal is for him to repent and be welcomed back into the fellowship. But until then you treat him as an unbeliever and in this same context Jesus says "what you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven". If he doesn't listen to the church and they treat him as a heathen then that will also take place in heaven.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Ok, let's assume OSAS is true.

Oh, you mean "let's ASSUME Jesus was telling the truth", huh. Wow. O ye of little to NO faith.

Why can't you accept the obvious truth of John 5:24 and 10:28?

According to OSAS, saying a 30 seconds sinner's prayer like: "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. I accept You as my Lord and Savior. Please forgive me and come into my heart by Your Spirit" is enough to go to Heaven for all eternity.

OK, just stop right here. Who is speaking on behalf of "OSAS", whoever that even is. And who cares what the person you identify as OSAS even claims? So what?

Why don't you just believe what Jesus says? Why is that so distasteful to you?

According to Jesus, believers POSSESS eternal life. John 5:24. Or, prove me wrong.
According to Jesus, those given eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28. Or prove me wrong.

Now, nothing wrong with the sinner's prayer. I've said it myself many times and led others to say it also.

Well, there is EVERYTHING WRONG with it. First, the Bible NEVER says salvation is by repeating ANY WORDS. EVER.

Second, words don't save anyone. Belief saves.

But here's the thing: suppose OSAS is objectively true, then also us NON-OSASers are already saved, and nothing we can ever do or not, according to OSAS, can change that. And if so, then NON-OSASers lose nothing anyway, and are also already saved.

A person is saved ONLY IF they have placed their full trust in the gospel promise of salvation through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross. Those who have done that POSSESS eternal life. Period.

And suppose it is true that sins now cause us to lose only rewards, and not salvation, even so, why suffer loss and lose the rewards, and be saved only through fire (as 1 Cor 3:15) says, which means to be saved in a painful way after the Lord's discipline? Much better to labor much for the Lord, in Prayer, Fasting, Almsgiving, Evangelism etc, Martyrdom if necessary, and other good works, in order, as 2 Pet 1 says, not only to go to Heaven, but also to secure a rich welcome/reward there.

That is the whole point of God's painful discipline. To motivate the child of God to good works, which they were created for in the first place. Eph 2:10.

Again, what do non-OSASers lose, objectively speaking, even if OSAS were true?

First, you DENY what the Lord Jesus taught. How do you think that sits with His Father? Hmmm?
Second, you are calling Jesus a LIAR. How do you think that sits with His Father? Hmmm?

Meanwhile, if OSAS is not true, then those who recognize that have many advantages.

Since Jesus was explicitly clear about eternal security, your fantasizing is irrelevant.

In the end, every Christian, OSAS or non OSAS, hopes God's Grace will help us persevere in the Faith and in love until death. God Bless.

And the OSNAS crowd is still denying what the Lord taught, and by that, calling Him a LIAR.

But whatever.

 

[Runningman]

Faith is a gift though. as Jesus said when they asked him what work they must do Jesus said it is the work of God that we believe in the one he sent.

John 6: 28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

Faith isn't a gift. The verses you provided say faith is a work that we do. The broader context compares Jesus to the manna from heaven. God provided the manna, Israel had to go out and get it and they worked to make it edible. If they didn't then they would have starved in the desert. In the same way, God provided His Son. To do the work that God requires we have to believe in Jesus.

Faith is not something that that happens overnight, It takes alot of work from God in convicting us, Showing us who he is, SHowing us who we are in bringing us to our knees. Jesus said it himself. we must become poor in spirit to enter the kingdom of God. I think this passage is misleading, as when we think of poor in our sense we are not seeing the whole picture. The greek word used their is literally bankrupt. Empty, Homeless with nothing, Helpless, Lost with no hope.. That is what happened to the tax collector as he got on his knees unable to even look up in shame. He saw his hopeless bankrupt state in the eternal state and completely humbled himself. Jesus is saying that is what it takes. Pseudo faith or mere belief does not bring us to the state of being literally poor in spirit. It may start us on the process and allow God to start to work on us. But it is not saving faith. Sadly to many people stop t this pseudo faith state and never get complely humbled to the bankrupt state and are just playing church, they can play for years. But eventually they will expose the truth. they they were never of us, because although they believed, they never trusted completely they fell short of allowing God to bring them to their knees

It takes a lot of work from ourselves to undo a lifetime of secular conditioning that says people cannot raise from the dead after three days and ascend to heaven.

Thats why when people say we can lose faith I am shocked. We did not just come to it. God did a large work to bring us to that state. People who are brought to the knowledge they are bankrupt do not return to that bankrupt state, they do everything they can to keep that from happening. In order to "lose faith" they would have to wish to return to that state that God spent so much work bringing them too and deny they were even there.. That just does not happen

Faith can be lost. Judas lost faith and many of Jesus' disciples did too.

Think of it like this. People can have faith in many things such as the law of Moses and many of them lost faith in it once it wasn't required.

as for Judas, he was called the son of perdition. only one other person will have that name, and he is called the man of sin or antichrist in the last days. They both will go to their place..

He was called the son of perdition because he was probably going to be destroyed.

He is talking about everyone who is there. not just the 12. and he called one of the 12 an unbeliever and one that will betray him (Judas)

Jesus did not call Judas an unbeliever, He called him a betrayer.

John 6 in context is jesus telling people not to search for food which perishes. but food which will ENDURE to eternal life.

He said one can eat this food. and they will never die

He said unlike manna, where you had to continually eat. whoever eats this food will never die. Live forever. Never hunger or thirst. have eternal life and be raised one he last day.

her also said what the food ws. the words, which through the spirit, he was speaking to them.

In order for the comparison between manna and Jesus as the bread from heaven to be accurate, they must be congruent. Israel had to go out and gather the manna, refine it, then cook it. You're saying that faith in Jesus is a gift, but the text doesn't say that.

if salvation can be lost AFTER we eat of this food. and placed into this state, Jesus lied.

I'm sorry you feel that way.

 

[FreeGrace2]

and yet the context says they believed, that includes Judas.

No it doesn't. Peter didn't know everyone's heart, and he only assumed that all 12 believed. But in 6:64 John included Judas in the phrase about who didn't believe.

6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.

Though he was a betrayer, it can't be said he was an unbeliver.

Yes it can. If Judas had believed, he would have been given the gift of eternal life that Jesus spoke of in John 5;24 and 10:28. So you calling Jesus a LIAR as well?

John 6:66-71KJV
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Peter's opinion. Not a fact.

 

[Runningman]

So, the eternal life that Jesus promises, is conditional on our perfect faithfulness? (Because God’s perfect righteousness is what is required)

Just as the Law required perfect obedience, your logic dictates that perfect obedience to new ordinances are required. Seems like you simply replaced the old Law with a new one. So how do you define Grace?

What is perfect faithfulness? Jesus said all you need is a mustard seed and His yoke is easy and burden is light. I didn't realize you thought faith was a grueling task comparable to keeping the 600+ laws of Moses. Jesus seems to disagree.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus says He will never lose any who the Father has given Him.

Agreed, but I think we are understanding the Bible differently. I pay close attention to grammar and this is what the passage says:

John 6
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The word "believes" here is in the Present Participle Active tense. That means 10 years later you must be believing in God's Son, then, too. We are always currently in the present and must always be believing in Jesus in the present. Jesus didn't mean to believe in Him one time for a few minutes then stop and you're still good to go; the believing must continue, actively, in order to have eternal life.

This actually matters. A lot. I see this is a reoccurring problem for OSAS. They are ignoring some very fine, but critical, details.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Heh. Free Grace. I gave you crystal clear explanation of what Jn 5:24 and Jn 10:28 meant. You didn't even attempt to refute it. You see, when you are in the Truth and confident about it, you don't have to avoid any verse. You avoided all the verses I quoted. That shows that, despite your empty bluster, and frankly, rudeness, you are not confident you are in the Truth.

5 passages disproving OSAS:

1. Mat 18: 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

2. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

3. 2 Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

4. Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

5. Rom 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

You have no real response to any of this, so you're just going to pound the table more, I'm sure.

Reply or don't reply just as you want. I couldn't care less, especially when you're rude about it. But when you do reply, it's a basic courtesy to at least address the Scripture passages quoted, and try and give some kind of explanation for it. Then others reading can take it forward from there. We know OSAS is not the Truth because ample passages confirm it.

Your particular Free Grace version of OSAS was invented until 1990. Which means it was unheard of for the first 2000 years after Christ. That itself should show you, if you were seeking the Truth, your doctrine is of man: not Christ and His Apostles.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That verse doesn't mean what you think it means. It says it is the Father's Will that Christ lose none. But that will not necessarily happen. Another verse says God wills all men to be saved, and come to the knowledge of the Truth: "Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Tim 2:4). Does that mean universalism is true?

The passage that says his will is that everyone will be saved, but it does not say everyone will be saved.

In john 6, it says that everyone who is given to Christ he will not lose one. and it shows who those people are that will be given eternal life. those who believe..

Its a general theme from John 3 - 6 that those who believe will never die.. those who do not believe will remain in a condemned state

No, because just because God wants something to happen, doesn't mean it will happen. You have to say to God, "Thy will be done" as the Lord taught in the Lord's Prayer. And He confirmed again that we must do the Father's Will to be saved when He said: "Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven." (Mat 7:21). OSASers seem to be saying that saying "Lord, Lord" is enough to enter Heaven.

Many people say Lord Lord. The jews said lord lord. yet they crucified Christ.

Saying lord lord will not get you anywhere..

 

[FreeGrace2]

Heh. Free Grace. I gave you crystal clear explanation of what Jn 5:24 and Jn 10:28 meant.

You just gave your own opinion about it. Jesus was SO VERY CLEAR ABOUT what He said, that to claim He wasn't teaching eternal security is ludicrous.

You didn't even attempt to refute it.

I let Jesus do the talking. And what He said was so clear, your opinion is worthless in the debate.

You see, when you are in the Truth and confident about it, you don't have to avoid any verse.

In fact, I don't avoid any verse. What I do reject are opinions that twist the verse out of its clear meaning, which you did.

You avoided all the verses I quoted.

Once again, because Jn 5:24 and 10:28 are so clear, it is IMPOSSIBLE for any of "your" verses to teach opposite of what Jesus taught.

That shows that, despite your empty bluster, and frankly, rudeness, you are not confident you are in the Truth.

You may take your opinions somewhere else. I know what Jesus taught. You don't LIKE what Jesus taught, so you attempt to twist it into something else.

5 passages disproving OSAS:

1. Mat 18: 32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. 35 So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

2. Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

3. 2 Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

4. Heb 10:36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

5. Rom 11:21 "For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

You have no real response to any of this, so you're just going to pound the table more, I'm sure.

I've answered them many times from different posters. But there comes a time I get tired of trying to help someone who doesn't believe what Jesus said. Why bother? Nothing I say about "your" verses will change your mind.

Reply or don't reply just as you want.

Well, thanks for the freedom. lol

I couldn't care less, especially when you're rude about it.

What Jesus said is so clear, that those who don't believe the words He said and try to twist them to mean something else, are the rude ones. They are calling Jesus a LIAR. How rude is that?

But when you do reply, it's a basic courtesy to at least address the Scripture passages quoted, and try and give some kind of explanation for it.

You really don't understand evidence, do you? Since John 5;24 and 10:28 are so clear and teach eternal security, there cannot be any verses that teach the opposite.

Then others reading can take it forward from there. We know OSAS is not the Truth because ample passages confirm it.

Your opinion is anti-truth. And anti-Jesus. And that's rude.

Your particular Free Grace version of OSAS was invented until 1990.

I don't have a version. I believe exactly what Jesus said, unlike yourself. He didn't say those words in 1990, but somewhere in the late AD 20's.

Which means it was unheard of for the first 2000 years after Christ.

This is delusional.

That itself should show you, if you were seeking the Truth, your doctrine is of man: not Christ and His Apostles.

Again, all you are doing is digging a hole for yourself. You don't believe what Jesus said so clearly.

He said believers possess eternal life in John 5:24. That would mean WHEN they become a believer.

Then He said that recipients of eternal life (believers from Jn 5:24) shall never perish in John 10:28.

It couldn't be any more clear. But you think you can reverse what Jesus said by inventing another view.