Out Of This World

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pottersclay

Senior Member
Aug 13, 2015
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#61
Very good post!!

Saints, I believe this is the time when our king our Lord gives up all of what he has . Every ounce every fiber of his being is now at the mercy of the father. Placing himself as the one and only required sacrifice for all of creation. Being confident that all he had done and now about to do is pleasing to the father. Accepting the separation of him and the father. Separating the God man and human.
It pleased the Lord to bruise him. His own despised him, the 12 choosen didn't understand nor comforted him.
Jesus all alone commits himself to the glory that is set before him. This world could never comprehend this event that was about to unfold. Jesus the son of the living God despising the humility pressing on to the mark of excellence.
No this was not of this world and was yet to be in the world to come. The threshold from life to death to life has never been crossed in this manner. A life layed down, a life picked up, a life of Everlasting glory.
Not of this world and yet to be in the world to come.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#62
So he wasn't a light before Pilate or on the road to the cross - at what point did he lose His lightyness?
i will presume He doesn't lose His lightyness :)
if while He was in the world He was the light of the world, then when He is no longer the light of the world is when He is no longer in the world.. yes?

so the passages in John about Him, about the light of the world, tell us about His lighteyness and are connected to when He is in the world. i'm not sure this is comprehensive, but it's some:

  • John
    • 1:4-5
      • In Him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.
    • 1:9
      • The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.
    • 8:12
      • When Jesus spoke again to the people, He said, “I AM the light of the world. Whoever follows Me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."
    • 9:1-5
      • As He went along, He saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked Him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?
        Neither this man nor his parents sinned,
        said Jesus,
        but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. As long as it is day, we must do the works of Him who sent Me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
    • 11:8-10
      • “But Rabbi,” they said, “a short while ago the Jews there tried to stone You, and yet you are going back?”
        Jesus answered, “

        Are there not twelve hours of daylight? Anyone who walks in the daytime will not stumble, for they see by this world’s light. It is when a person walks at night that they stumble, for they have no light.
    • 17:10-11
      • All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them, and I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#63
if while He was in the world He was the light of the world, then when He is no longer the light of the world is when He is no longer in the world.. yes?
Those that think he was saying that he was the light of the world completely missed the point of his testimony, in fact he said that if he bear witness of himself his witness was not true. [see John 5:31]

Of course, those who missed the point will disagree with the fact that in that passage he was indeed was bearing witness, which is to say speaking of himself. Which is kinda ironic considering what is written in Luke 6:47; "Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:"

I guess you would say that he missed the point and built his house on a rock. [see Psalms 127:1]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,617
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#66
He hadn't yet gone to the cross...
So what? Looks like you cannot cannot accept the fact that for God and Christ every future event is already an accomplished fact. That principle is sufficient to explain the enigmatic words of Christ.
 

Poinsetta

Well-known member
Nov 24, 2018
7,904
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#67
So what? Looks like you cannot cannot accept the fact that for God and Christ every future event is already an accomplished fact. That principle is sufficient to explain the enigmatic words of Christ.
He drank the cup 😝
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#68
So what? Looks like you cannot cannot accept the fact that for God and Christ every future event is already an accomplished fact. That principle is sufficient to explain the enigmatic words of Christ.
Nehemiah, in the very same breath that He says He is no longer in the world He also says He is coming to the Father.
He doesn't say He is already seated with the Father.


if He was speaking of the future as tho it were already past He would not say "I am coming to you" He would say "I am seated with you" and He would not say of those He will take out of the world, "these are in the world"

three statements in one sentence comprise v. 11, and two of them are indisputably not speaking as though the future is already accomplished, but describe the present as though it is the present & future as future.
in fact, where else in the entire chapter can you say He is speaking like the future is already accomplished?
you are giving an explanation that doesn't fit the text.
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#69
Why?

What would it mean if we compare what Christ is saying in John 17:11 with the verse in John 9:5?

Why would we want to do that?
Why would we want to compare verses that have a different context?

I think you're trying to pair verses because of similar language, without taking into consideration the passages have different contexts.
in John 17:11, He speaks about being in the world / not being in the world.
in John 9:5, He speaks about being in the world / not being in the world.

we would want to put these two verses alongside each other because they have the same language, and His language isn't arbitrary but deliberate.
we should understand how each context relates to each other. just because something has a different context doesn't mean it's unrelatable - it just means we need to find some function f(context1) = context2 - to understand how the statements relate to each other, we need to also understand how the contexts relate to each other.

so, let's lay out the two contexts and see where they differ and where they are similar? see if we find anything?


Context:

A. In John 9:5 Christ is talking about being physically gone from the world.
B. In John 17:11, Christ cannot be talking about being physically gone from the world, AT THE MOMENT HE'S SPEAKING, because he's still physically in the world.
C. So you CANNOT take attributes of John 9:5, and apply them to the circumstances of John 17:11 AT THE MOMENT HE'S SPEAKING, as the two passages have different contexts.

I explained the context of John 17:11 back in post #29.
And as Jesus passed by, He saw a man which was blind from his birth.
And His disciples asked Him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.
I must work the works of Him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
When He had thus spoken, He spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and He anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.
(John 9:1-7)
  • "while it is day" & "the night cometh" and "as long as I am in the world"
    • time references implying temporary states: at that time He was in the world and intimates that He will not always be
    • now is day, when He is in the world. future is night, and in the future He will not be in the world.
      • He links His presence in the world with light and His non-presence in the world with darkness - this links to John 17, and also back to John 1 in overview, thematically.
  • we have disciples present who presently don't comprehend the fullness of the truth and a man who has been blind since birth, unable to comprehend the fullness of light.
    • these are thematically linked as like figures of a form spiritual poverty which describes the world: ignorant of light, ignorant of truth
    • He addresses both deficiencies: He teaches the disciples the truth "that the works of God should be made manifest" and He gives sight to the blind
    • the method by which He gives sight to the blind is by mixing some of His own body with the body of the earth, placing the mixture with the blind human, and emphasizing the act of 'sending' / act of being 'sent'

the same elements are by allegory present in John 17

  • John 16:32 "the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered" puts the prayer in John 17 in the context of disciples having deficiency.
    • He prays for them, John 17:9, implying they are in some state of need. that they may be kept as one, v. 11, in contrast to 16:32, where He says they will be scattered - addressing the deficiency of unity
    • that they be kept from evil, v. 15
    • that they be sanctified in truth, vv. 17, 19
      • vis a vis John 9:3, correcting them in truth
    • that they 'know' Him, v. 3, and that the world 'know' and 'believe', vv. 21, 23, and that they 'behold' ((see)) His glory, v. 24
      • vis-vis, sight to the blind
    • 7 times, He emphasizes the concept of being 'sent' with passing from ((allegorical)) blindness to sight:
      • v. 3 "that they might know Thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom Thou hast sent"
      • v. 8 "they have believed that Thou didst send me"
      • v. 18 "as Thou hast sent Me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world"
      • v. 21 "that the world may believe that Thou hast sent Me"
      • v. 23 "that the world may know that Thou hast sent Me, and hast loved them, as Thou hast loved Me"
      • v. 25 "I have known Thee, and these have known that Thou hast sent Me"



I can't see there are any issues beyond the simple semantics I outlined in post #29.
We quite commonly use language with a great variety of semantic nuance, which is explained through context.
If we ignore the context, and try to create artificial semantics, we end up in all kinds of confusion and ambiguity.

A. I think that all of this confusion is caused by merely pressing words beyond the common semantic understanding prescribed by the context in which they are found.

B. I think it's good to have these conversations, and ask questions, and peer deeply... but sometimes the answers are simple ones.
2pf0ih.jpg



;):):LOL:
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
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#70
I agree he was talking to his Father about leaving earth, being crucified on the cross very soon. I don't believe he was in outer space, or another dimension. (Even though it might make an interesting Sci-fi story.)
if He's "no longer in the world" and "coming to" the Father, then logically at that moment He is somewhere between the world and the place where the Father is, right?

it really makes no logical sense to me to understand the comment "I am no longer in the world" to be speaking of the things that will soon follow to be already accomplished. i see the explanation 'He's speaking of the future as though already past' as a very weak 'hand-waving argument' that dismisses the complexity of the statement as though a fox snarking about out-of-reach-grapes; it's 'giving up' and trying to excuse the failure to comprehend by saying there's nothing to comprehend, anyhow.

He can't be talking about being no longer in the world in the sense that He no longer has work left to do. He still has the cross, the resurrection, and all the things He does after He is raised. if this is a statement having to do with ministry, it's only about a specific facet of it - having to do ((IMO)) with His being the light of the world ((re: John 9:5, "while I am in the world.."))

there's far more here than 'oh there He goes playing loose with temporal references' -- it's shallow, arbitrary, reveals nothing, and doesn't fit any of the rest of the text, particularly not with anything else He says in the very same exact statement!

when someone says, 'pay no attention to the man behind the curtain..' --- um, i'm immediately scrutinizing the curtain, looking for a man :)
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,582
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#71
the method by which He gives sight to the blind is by mixing some of His own body with the body of the earth, placing the mixture with the blind human, and emphasizing the act of 'sending' / act of being 'sent'
vis-a-vis, the Word, being sent, became flesh & dwelt among us -- the divine being mixed with man, made of dust, revealing the person of God to us, giving a portion of Himself to be dwelling in those immersed into Him, giving 'sight' to the 'blind'

;)
 
Mar 14, 2011
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#73
Hm, Was it Jesus stating a fact that at that point, His direct influence bodily to his disciples and the people of Israel (world) had come to an end. That from that point forward. He would be arrested, Given a mock trial. Found innocent, yet still condemned to death, and hang on a cross. So essentially, He was no longer in the world (thinking out loud)
 

NayborBear

Banned Serpent Seed Heresy
#74
but He says,

"and I am coming to You"

so not? where is the Father?

this is the prayer the night they came to the garden to seize Him. physically the man Jesus was in the garden of Gethsemane while He spoke these words - but He says, in present tense, He is no longer in the world, while His physical body was right there, living and breathing, a little ways off from the disciples who kept falling asleep.

they kept falling asleep, but someone heard this and John wrote it down, i presume? with that in mind i think He must have said this aloud in order for them to hear and so it would be recorded in scripture -- it was His habit to go off by Himself to pray, not pray aloud in the middle of the disciples, as far as it was recorded. this seems purposefully done, to me. i'm saying this, because i think probably to really understand this we have to also understand that these words are deliberate
Praying in His own Spiritual body to the Father. As Jesus knew He had "ruffled the feathers" of the "powers that be", to the point that He had purposely "painted Himself in a corner", where there was no "other" recourse, then fulfilling the Father's intended purpose of sending Jesus, in the first place. Which was "showing" Israel, that a Spiritual body CAN "co-exist" WITHIN the "frame work" of a flesh body! Although, it's not a very PEACEFUL co-exsitance, as Paul experienced and recorded.

Which answers the questions of the WHY Jesus had to go off by himself, to Pray, as well as, the why the disciples who Jesus asked to stand watch, COULDN'T stay awake!

As Paul bore wittiness to, these flesh body's, or members, as he called them, is like a vacuum cleaner, or, so many vexating spirits, that literally? SUCKS energy, or fatigues, sometimes to the point of "falling asleep" from either, our flesh body, or spiritual body, depending on which one a person is in, or doing at the time.

As we know, from Paul's records, he wasn't teaching and preaching 24/7. And, neither was Jesus! Or else, there'd be a whole lot MORE to the N.T., then we have now! ;)

Hope this makes sense, or possibly resembles similar experiences, in a believer's spiritual so-journeyings. :)
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
15,617
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#75
Nehemiah, in the very same breath that He says He is no longer in the world He also says He is coming to the Father.
He doesn't say He is already seated with the Father.
As I already mentioned, divine logic does not have to conform to your ideas of what is logical. The Lord could speak in all three tenses at the same time, and it would all be true.

FUTURE AS THOUGH PRESENT
Father, the hour is come..

FUTURE AS THOUGH PAST
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do...

FUTURE AS THOUGH PRESENT
And now I am no more in the world...
 

GraceAndTruth

Well-known member
Sep 28, 2015
2,031
637
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#76
I see it as Jesus Christ being on a level of spirituality that we cannot understand, just as we cannot fully explain His transfiguration.
He was in His earthly body when he knew things that could only be known by God, like the woman who touched His garment, or knowing that the maniac was demon possessed. We can never know all that He was while on earth, limited by a human body yet free to be His eternal self. May be one of the mysteries of the Godhead.
 

Zmouth

Senior Member
Nov 21, 2012
3,391
134
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#77
As I already mentioned, divine logic does not have to conform to your ideas of what is logical.
Isn't that simply an opinion?
How can the Son of Man be on earth and also be in Heaven? Divine logic and divine reality.
The same way you are.

In Genesis 1:1 the heaven was created; thus, it is known and observed that anything which is created is not eternal since the eternal has always existed and always will; maybe you might consider the passage written in John 3:12: If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,582
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#78
As I already mentioned, divine logic does not have to conform to your ideas of what is logical. The Lord could speak in all three tenses at the same time, and it would all be true.

FUTURE AS THOUGH PRESENT
Father, the hour is come..

FUTURE AS THOUGH PAST
I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do...

FUTURE AS THOUGH PRESENT
And now I am no more in the world...
alright, then why does He speak these few words as tho the future has already past, yet no where else in the entire monologue, not even in the rest of the very same breath, speak this way?
 

Sketch

Well-known member
Nov 1, 2018
1,278
300
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#79
I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. All Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, which You have given Me, that they may be one, even as We are one. While I was with them, I kept them in Your name, which You have given Me.
(John 17:9-12)
this whole passage is immeasurably profound, but i wanted to focus in on this part in this thread:

"I am no longer in the world"


  • what does this mean???
  • how was He no longer in the world?
  • when was He in the world, when did He cease to be?
  • if not in the world and coming to the Father, where was He?
  • ????
  • ???
  • ??
  • ?
The NIV translates the phrase as follows: "I will remain in the world no longer..."
I suppose we should look at the Greek?
 

posthuman

Senior Member
Jul 31, 2013
31,582
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#80
The NIV translates the phrase as follows: "I will remain in the world no longer..."
I suppose we should look at the Greek?
i have ((not that i know Greek)) and it appears very obviously that the Greek says 'no longer am I in the world'

i would say it's clear that the NIV translators saw this statement as very strange and decided to abandon a literal rendering in favor of an interpretive one - following the majority of preaching and thought on the subject, they changed the text to reflect what they figured He meant by what He said rather than what He actually said. common thing; eisegessis, not exegesis.