Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"

[Absolutely]

Well it was unkind of them to laugh at you.

There are many glaring scriptural errors in the little story you present on behalf of your atheist friend.

There is much you need to learn from the scriptures and the Holy Spirit.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No,the only errors are from those that think getting saved outside your formulas and religios garb are the only thing heaven thinks about.
God is big
You are a brake pedal christian.
That is the error. Your foot on some imaginary brake pedal.

 

[notuptome]

No,the only errors are from those that think getting saved outside your formulas and religios garb are the only thing heaven thinks about.
God is big
You are a brake pedal christian.
That is the error. Your foot on some imaginary brake pedal.

And you wonder why folks laugh at you.

Do you enjoy making accusations without merit at everyone or just those who see through you?

Scripture describes the gospel. Scripture describes the work of the Holy Spirit in saving our souls. Scripture warns against any other gospel. Scripture warns against those who suppose themselves saved without ever coming to Christ.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[7seasrekeyed]

Note that I said I would not listen to someone on a forum if they claimed I was at some lower level of spirituality. Seems like you are not capable of reading whole sentences but only the parts that you need in order to misrepresent someone.

strange reply. YOU are the only person here who has even mentionned levels. this is distinctly a quirk you seem to suffer from

I am writing in big and colorful letters so everyone can see what we have been telling you from page 1

your entire op is about a tier system which does not appear in scripture and is not accurate

learn to respond to what people write otherwise, you are just blowing hot air

like the rest of your post. hot air

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

You are not getting away with you doubletalk
Now you claim cessationists NEVER ascribe satan to the work of the Holy Spirit.
...and that you and your circles decide when to invoke it.(frame anything your ignorance catagorizes as fake into either an act,or under some other power).

IOW,You know only what here say taught you,

Heck,had i not gotten saved in the charismatic movement i might even agree with you if all i had were attacker youtube vids as my source.

What you do is "fake investigate" . find what you think are fakes,bow out you chest,and throw the baby out with the bathwater.

An atheist friend of mine got saved recently. He could write a book on his transformation. A charismatic guy came to his shop anointed him with oil ,and prayed for him and prophesied over him. Then took him to the full gospel church service sunday.
After church the pastor prayed over him in english firstbthen tongues.
Larry hit the floor. Boom. Was throne backwards. (Broken collarbone and all)

I was so excited. My atheist friend of 30+ yrs saved delivered,set free and on fire for God.

Now..... i am a part of a baptist bible study. When i went to class i told them the story.
THEY LAUGHED ME OUT OF THERE.

cessationists.

I no longer attend

Thanks for being such a good example of my claims

By the way, I NEVER said that cessationists NEVER claim charismatic antics are from Satan. Additionally, I believe SOME charismatic antics are from Satan. Others are simply self-delusion and still others could be genuine, but those are likely the quiet ones. However, the "fire tunnels", "slain in the Spirit", "holy laughter", etcetera...you couldn't convince me they are genuine manifestations of the Spirit.

The Spirit isn't a kook.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

dude starts his op with actual slander, makes false claims and posts false information regarding Calvary Chapel and GotQuestions

accuses those who accept and are filled with the Holy Spirit...otherwise known as baptism in the Spirit of calling themselves superior

accuses non-cessationists of thinking they are superior

twists what others post and pretends he does not see responses so he can pass over them and not deal with the objective truth of a response to one of his blatant misrepresentations

continues to argue about a 2 tier system even though none of us knew about it until he got here

says Dr Brown agrees with odd behaviors when anyone can check Brown's site or books and see the opposite is actually true

says he would not listen to someone on a forum, yet here he is demanding we listen to him

says God alone is his judge while judging everyone else

deja vu

all been said and done here before

must be the default position of certain cessationists

 

[7seasrekeyed]

my conclusion is this thread is created out of hatred and bias

it has the resemblance of quicksand and there will never be a conclusion because the op does not want to discuss anything

the op wants to judge and accuse and mock and sneer

well, you enjoy it dude

just disappeared off my radar

frankly we should all just hit ignore IMO

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

strange reply. YOU are the only person here who has even mentionned levels. this is distinctly a quirk you seem to suffer from

I am writing in big and colorful letters so everyone can see what we have been telling you from page 1

your entire op is about a tier system which does not appear in scripture and is not accurate

learn to respond to what people write otherwise, you are just blowing hot air

like the rest of your post. hot air

Of course it doesn't appear in Scripture, and of course it is unbiblical, like much of what charismatics/Pentecostals teach.

Show me where these appear in Scripture:

slain in the Spirit and flopping around on the floor with your undies and rump cleavage exposed

holy laughter

grave sucking

gold dust falling out of the ceiling and claiming it is God's glory cloud (Bill Johnson)

feathers falling out of the ceiling and claiming God is covering them with his feathers (what a tortured view of Ps 91:4) (again, Bill Johnson)

Disclaimer: I note that some on this thread disavow Bill Johnson and I am glad

 

[kaylagrl]

Note that I said I would not listen to someone on a forum if they claimed I was at some lower level of spirituality. Seems like you are not capable of reading whole sentences but only the parts that you need in order to misrepresent someone.

Here's my simple conclusion: SOME Pentecostals/charismatics claim that non-Pentecostals/charismatics are inferior in some spiritual sense. They claim to be super-duper Christians who have achieved a higher level of spirituality through a second experience. In their minds, it isn't enough to be regenerated; you need to be regenerated and, then, experience a "second blessing" which empowers them for service, and sometimes to be sinless. This reminds me of the error of the Colossians, where Jesus isn't enough..it is "Jesus plus".

Fixed it for you. Stop generalizing. Just because you "know some people" doesn't make a "majority". Pentecostals DO NOT believe in a "second" experience. They don't believe they are more superior. And they certainly DO NOT believe they are sinless or it's Jesus plus anything. smh So stop repeating the lie, thanks.


Additionally, SOME Pentecostals/charismatics slander non-Pentecostals/charismatics by claiming they don't believe in "the gifts" or "the Spirit", knowing all along that they do believe in spiritual gifts and do teach that the believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. However, since there is a different view concerning "miraculous sign gifts" such as speaking in tongues, interpretation of tongues, prophesying or healing by individuals, this claim that others don't believe in "the Spirit" or "the gifts" is set forth in order to slander them.

Fixed it again. The majority of Pentecostals do not believe that. And BTW YOU are slandering us! So stop it.



As some have indicated, they don't hold these beliefs...however there are others that do, and I have talked to them. Some have been online, and some have been individuals involved in a parachurch ministry I am a part of.

Good let them have it. But don't come here and tar everyone with the same brush, please, you wouldn't like it if I did it to you.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

I exempt you from my remarks..however try reading Absolutely's remarks above. He fits my description. Are you going to correct him?

I doubt it..because in general, everything goes in the charismatic world, and you can't criticize anyone's experiences.

 

[Dino246]

No, I didn't. I got my opinions from interacting with Pentecostals/charismatics who are claiming their spiritual superiority due to being "spirit-filled", and treating non-Pentecostals/charismatics as inferior believers. All you have to do is read the above comments to see that some hold this view.

By the way, I find it comical that you guys are denying this is a factor within Pentecostal/charismatic circles seeing as your fellow Pentecostals/charismatics are expressing this view in the same thread. Such as the guy who said that we can't "pray in the spirit" so we are inferior.

"You guys". Uh huh.

How about I paint you with the same brush with which I paint other cessationists. Oh... right... you don't appreciate that.

If you're going to complain about being broadbrushed by others, you need to make sure you aren't doing the same thing.

Some p/c believers may hold that view. So address your criticisms to the some that do, rather than to all.

 

[calibob]

No,it says saved people do that.

Are you saying saved people don't?

Frame it in the proper format

What part don't you understand? I'm saying displaying gifts of the Holy Spirit are not a requirement for salvation. Of course some people that are saved can and do but others simply receive and the gift of love.

What format? This is how I talk and this is a discussion forum.

 

[CherieR]

Of course it doesn't appear in Scripture, and of course it is unbiblical, like much of what charismatics/Pentecostals teach.

Show me where these appear in Scripture:

slain in the Spirit and flopping around on the floor with your undies and rump cleavage exposed

holy laughter

grave sucking

gold dust falling out of the ceiling and claiming it is God's glory cloud (Bill Johnson)

feathers falling out of the ceiling and claiming God is covering them with his feathers (what a tortured view of Ps 91:4) (again, Bill Johnson)

Disclaimer: I note that some on this thread disavow Bill Johnson and I am glad

These are extreme positions you are describing that many people do not agree with. It has nothing to do with speaking in tongues or interpretation of them.

 

[calibob]

He is a pastor and author.

Little Richard was a Pastor and he was the main contributor to his biography too.

​

 

[calibob]

None have what they think they are receiving when putting on public display as a show. It is a sign against those who refuse to hear his understanding .Like those in Jerimiah 44 . . . “We will not listen to the message from the Lord that you spoke to us but we will rather do as our own mouth declares as oral traditions of men .

They refused yo get o under all things written in the law and the prophets (sola scriptura) but rather seek after the things of men seen. Jesus says they have their reward.

The people say, “Who does he think he is trying to teach and explain his message to? Does he think we are babies who were at their mother’s breast only a very short time ago? He speaks to us as though we were babies:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.” (Sola scriptura)

So God will use this strange way of talking, and he will use other languages to speak to these people.

In the past he spoke to them and said, “Here is a resting place. Let those who are tired come and rest. This is the place of peace.”But they would not listen to him. So the Lord’s words will be senseless sounds[ to them:

“Saw lasaw saw lasaw.
Qaw laqaw qaw laqaw.
Ze’er sham ze’er sham.”(Sola scriptura)

When the people try to walk (understand), they will fall backwards. They will be defeated, trapped, and captured. Isaiah 28:9- 14

Falling backward shows the understanding of prophecy is taken away. Can't serve two master in that way. today falling backwards is used to indicate the end of the sign works.

Honestly. I had to look up sola scriptura. I've never heard of it What the word means is scripture only so how did it become a book? We are not to trust anything written besides the Bible about Bible anyways. Dosn't the Bible begin with Genesis and end in the Revelation of John?

There is no more for to add to it or take away from it, as such could result in a curse from God.

 

[Magenta]

Honestly. I had to look up sola scriptura. I've never heard of it What the word means is scripture only so how did it become a book? We are not to trust anything written besides the Bible about Bible anyways. Dosn't the Bible begin with Genesis and end in the Revelation of John?

There is no more for to add to it or take away from it, as such could result in a curse from God.

You have been Sola Scriptura without knowing it

Sola Scriptura (Latin: by scripture alone) is a theological doctrine held by some Christian denominations that the Christian scriptures are the sole source of authority for Christian faith and practice. Some place traditions of man equal to or above Scripture, and that, as we know, is wrong, and allows for much error.

 

[RevelationsMc]

Galatians 5:16 KJV
[16] This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

 

[stonesoffire]

I have pondered the "two tier" experience claims of various Pentecostals and charismatics" over the years.

The basic idea is this: the person is supposedly saved but never experiences deliverance from sin in a substantial way. They are living an unproductive spiritual life for a period of time.

Then, all of a sudden, they have this "second experience" where they go from being a mediocre Christian to a super-duper Christian, sometimes accompanied by alleged spiritual gifts. Many times, the claimant allegedly speaks in tongues as proof of their special empowerment.

The view of "second experiences" is often inferred from the text of the book of Acts. My position would be that the individual is viewing Acts as the normative, rather than a narrative or description of a transitional period of time.

I recommend Dwight Pentecost's book called New Wine: A Study of Transition in the Book of Acts in regards to this view. He describes how the true believers were being transitioned from Israel to the people of God, the election was being transitioned from Jews to Gentiles, and the authority was passing from the priests to the apostles of the Church.

Here's the possibilities I can see in this regard:

1. The person was not saved during their first experience, and the second experience, the person was actually regenerated.
2. The person was saved during their first experience, but grew in their relationship with God and experienced a deeper level of relationship
3. The person is not saved, and is engaging in self-deception

My guess is that there are individuals in all of those categories.

I am not very open minded about "speaking in tongues", though....it seems like those making the claim often begin with someone instructing them how to "speak in tongues". I don't see anyone in Acts who had to be taught to engage in "speaking in tongues". However, there are so many youtube videos teaching how to "speak in tongues". Asking someone how they came to "speak in tongues" is informative..did they learn it from someone else? Did someone exert psychological pressure to get them to speak in tongues? Answers to these questions are instructive.

Anyways, I am strongly against "two tier" systems which claim that there is a group of super-duper Christians, and another group of Christians who are not spiritually empowered. I don't see it in Scripture. I guess I could go with the view that lazy, slothful Christians who don't engage in reading their Bible and praying could be a lower level of Christian, especially in their earlier Christianity. In reality, though, they are united with Christ, even if they aren't experiencing the deeper, satisfying relationship they could be having.

It was two experiences for me but isn’t the same for everyone. But, I know without a doubt when I was born again. This thing about the baptism being for witnessing....I understand why people say this. But, I witnessed to all I was around right after my new birth. That was my testimony and then an offer to pray with anyone who wanted the same.

The baptism of Holy Spirit IMO, has to do with gifts. And the gifts give further insight to those we witness to. It’s like tapping a glass bottle filled with all kinds of things useful to our life, and letting them out.

We see and hear in ways we could not do before. Not talking about hearing His Voice here, but seeing or hearing the thoughts or intents of ones heart. Or seeing a demonic influence on one.

He’s our helper and it’s His work. Not ours. If we are working, it’s sweat, labor. When He works, we rest in Him.

I could say much more but this is useless to debate and only separates His body. God wants us all to have all that He has. It’s up to us to ask.

 

[UnitedWithChrist]

On the charge that I am misrepresenting Pentecostals, check out this article on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism

Additionally, I have talked to several charismatics/Pentecostals and the Wikipedia article aligns with these experiences.

You guys can redefine Pentecostalism however you want in order to call me a liar, but it doesn't take much research to see that I am accurate. And, maybe some of you don't agree with your Pentecostal brothers on some issues, but that doesn't negate the fact that the things I have mentioned are general characteristics of Pentecostalism.

 

[7seasrekeyed]

on the charge that anyone is misrepresenting cessationists, check out this article on wikipedia

CESSATIONISM

Additonally, I have spoken to several Baptists/Calvinists and the Wikipedia article aligns with these various cessationisms

You guys can redefine Cessationism however you want in order to call me a liar, but it doesn't take much research to see that I am accurate. And, maybe some of you don't agree with your Cessationist brothers on some issues, but that doesn't negate the fact that the things I have mentioned are general characteristics of Cessationism.

 

[CherieR]

On the charge that I am misrepresenting Pentecostals, check out this article on Wikipedia:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentecostalism

Additionally, I have talked to several charismatics/Pentecostals and the Wikipedia article aligns with these experiences.

You guys can redefine Pentecostalism however you want in order to call me a liar, but it doesn't take much research to see that I am accurate. And, maybe some of you don't agree with your Pentecostal brothers on some issues, but that doesn't negate the fact that the things I have mentioned are general characteristics of Pentecostalism.

I don't disagree with you that there are certain practices that some do that are rather extreme. I think what people who are Pentecostal dislike is when it is implied all or most Pentecostal Christians are doing really strange activities such as the barking and whatnot. I am not Pentecostal. I consider myself to be closer to Baptist though I don't know what denomination I fit most. True there are dangers to activities like the barking and flopping like a fish and grave soaking. So, expose these practices for what they are, as dangers but remember to be gracious. Many of Pentecostal Christians do not practice such things so extreme.