Pentecostals and others claiming "second experiences"
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It's not the site it's the forum. You are (like I said before) on the Bible Discussion Forum. What is posted here is a matter of discussion amoung the general public. People who disagree are welcome to post their own opinions and disagree. "Come let us reason …" Not a "let's just post a scripture and everybody has to accept the point I trying to make forum. There are a: "Total Number of books in the Bible – 66 Chapters – 1,189 Verses – 31,102 Words – 783,134 Letters – 3,566,480 Promises – 1,260 Commands – 6,468 Predication – over 8,000 Fulfilled Prophecy – 3,268 verses Unfulfilled Prophecy – 3,140 verses Questions – 3,296 Longest name – 18 letters (Isaiah 8:1) Longest verse – Esther 8:9 Shortest verse – John 11:35."
That's just one translation and we don't even agree on which translation is best, if any.
"… Judas went and hanged himself...", "... Go ye and do likewise..." Is way out of context but for thousands of years wanna be prophets have been taking the word out of context or singling out a few verses and manipulating them to fit whatever agenda the are promoting
The majority of regulars here are aware of that and remain on guard against such things like guards or watchmen so be prepared to be challenged. Use of Biblical force is authorized here. Expect to be challenged.
That's just one translation and we don't even agree on which translation is best, if any.
"… Judas went and hanged himself...", "... Go ye and do likewise..." Is way out of context but for thousands of years wanna be prophets have been taking the word out of context or singling out a few verses and manipulating them to fit whatever agenda the are promoting
The majority of regulars here are aware of that and remain on guard against such things like guards or watchmen so be prepared to be challenged. Use of Biblical force is authorized here. Expect to be challenged.
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Amen brother.
I have been called a worker of satan simply because I told the truth that tounges aren't required for salvation by people who gave me constant praise until I said that.
I am born again by the power of God, sealed and saved to the uttermost.
Filled with the Holy spirit, and do not speak in "tounges". (unless you count english)
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Now that you are saved, you should ask the Lord to baptize you with the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).
While it is certainly true the Holy Spirit came into your heart and life the moment of your Salvation, still, He now wishes to endure you with power from on high. Consequently, Jesus told all of His followers immediately before His Ascension, that they should "wait for the Promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4). He was speaking of being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5).
You must understand that there is a great difference in being "born of the Spirit" than being " Baptized with the Spirit." They are two different works altogether.
To be "born of the Spirit" is that which took place at your conversion, as the Holy Spirit brought you to Christ and performed the work of regeneration within your heart and life. To be "Baptized with the Spirit" is in order that you may have Power with God (Acts 1:8). Every Believer should ask the Lord to fill them with the Holy Spirit, and expect to receive (Luke 11:13).
JSM
While it is certainly true the Holy Spirit came into your heart and life the moment of your Salvation, still, He now wishes to endure you with power from on high. Consequently, Jesus told all of His followers immediately before His Ascension, that they should "wait for the Promise of the Father" (Acts 1:4). He was speaking of being "Baptized with the Holy Spirit" (Acts 1:5).
You must understand that there is a great difference in being "born of the Spirit" than being " Baptized with the Spirit." They are two different works altogether.
To be "born of the Spirit" is that which took place at your conversion, as the Holy Spirit brought you to Christ and performed the work of regeneration within your heart and life. To be "Baptized with the Spirit" is in order that you may have Power with God (Acts 1:8). Every Believer should ask the Lord to fill them with the Holy Spirit, and expect to receive (Luke 11:13).
JSM
Yes I have heard the other extreme you mentioned many times. On both sides Everybody that speaks it tongues are crazy, fakers or demon possessed vs all Christians must speak in tongues. Both sides are incorrect! Tongues are one of the outward signs of being filled with the Holy Spirit. It is not required for Salvation and not the only sign either.
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1 Corinthians 12
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.
3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
4 Now there are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5 And there are differences of administrations, but the same Lord.
6 And there are diversities of operations, but it is the same God which worketh all in all.
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;
9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;
10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues:
11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
12 For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ.
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
14 For the body is not one member, but many.
15 If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
16 And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
17 If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
18 But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
19 And if they were all one member, where were the body?
20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.
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This is a reference to a person being born again by the Holy Spirit and placed in the Body of Christ, and NOT the baptism in the Spirit as on the Day of Pentecost...Luke 10v20, Acts 2v1-4.
The apostles / disciples were born again before the Day of Pentecost (their names were written in the Book of Life), the Day of Pentecost was the time they received the Promise of the Father, i.e., they were baptised in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues...The Holy Spirit was with the apostles before the Day of Pentecost (for He worked gifts of healing through them. Matt 10v7,8), but the Day of Pentecost was the day that God the Holy Spirit entered them. John 14v17. The Jews who came with Peter to the house of Cornelius knew that he and his family had been baptised in the Holy Spirit, BECAUSE they spoke with other tongues just as the disciples had done on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 10v45,46, 11v17.
The apostles / disciples were born again before the Day of Pentecost (their names were written in the Book of Life), the Day of Pentecost was the time they received the Promise of the Father, i.e., they were baptised in the Holy Spirit, with the evidence of speaking in tongues...The Holy Spirit was with the apostles before the Day of Pentecost (for He worked gifts of healing through them. Matt 10v7,8), but the Day of Pentecost was the day that God the Holy Spirit entered them. John 14v17. The Jews who came with Peter to the house of Cornelius knew that he and his family had been baptised in the Holy Spirit, BECAUSE they spoke with other tongues just as the disciples had done on the Day of Pentecost. Acts 10v45,46, 11v17.
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K
It is obvious from a rational and theological perspective that to say that some have the second baptism of the holy spirit and others don't raises a two tier system and a difference in the types of Christians based upon who has that baptism and who doesn't. Wayne Grudem in his systematic theology makes the wonderful argument that is necessary between those who have the second baptism and those who do not. To deny that there must necessitate a two tier Christianity is to make the basic error that there is something different about a person who has an icecream and a person who does not. Clearly the two people have differences because one has what the other does not. The one has a benefit that the other has not received. To say there is no tier system is to throw logic and rationality on its head.
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K
It is interesting to note that in Acts 2:1-4 the disciples receive a filling of the Holy Spirit. No where in this passage is this referred to as a second baptism. The bible teaches that Christians throughout their lives are filled with more of the Holy Spirit in the sense of him equipping us, changing us, being more experienced than at other times. This passage from Acts is an example of the disciples of Christ who having been already born again received a greater filling of the Holy Spirit. And this is perhaps where most of the confusion lies. What many Pentecostals claim is a second baptism of the Holy Spirit can be misunderstood in two ways. Firstly, the second baptism may be tagged to a person who was never born again to begin with. They may have thought they were a Christian but in fact never were. Secondly, it may refer to the filling which the Holy Spirit does to equip a person for ministry, or provide them with the strength to get through difficult situations, or experentially in worship and being conformed to Christ. Labeling it with the term second baptism then is usually one of these two and really explains the work of the Holy Spirit as he operates in the lives of all believers.
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Seven Steps to Receiving the Holy Spirit
I Corinthians 14:39 – “Wherefore, Brethren, covet to Prophesy (desire the Gift of Prophecy), and forbid not to speak with Tongues. (This proclaims the fact that all the instructions he has given are not meant to disallow Tongues, but rather to put them in their rightful order. So where does that put the so-called religious leaders who ignore this particular statement, which is actually a ‘Commandment of the Lord’?)”
There is much confusion among non-Pentecostals regarding I Corinthians, Chapter 14. Paul wrote this chapter to regulate and give instruction as it regarded the three Spiritual Gifts: “Prophecy,” “Tongues,” and “Interpretation of Tongues,” which are called the “Vocal Gifts,” a part of the nine Gifts of the Spirit.
Next, are the three Revelation Gifts, which consist of: “Word of Wisdom,” “The Word of Knowledge,” and “The Discerning of Spirits.”
And last, the three Power Gifts: “The Gift of Faith,” “The Gift of Healing,” and “The Gift of the Working of Miracles.”
There is a difference in the Gift of Tongues and the Tongues one receives at the moment of their infilling. All who are filled with the Spirit Baptism will speak in Tongues, but not all who speak in Tongues have the Gift of Tongues. Just as one who has the Gift of Prophecy does not mean that person is a Prophet.
There was no regulation or order given to the Early Church regarding Tongues and Interpretation of Tongues. The gist of Paul’s command is very simple: a message in Tongues does the Church no good if there is no one to interpret it. Therefore, Paul states that the Gift of Prophecy would be of greater benefit to the Body as all in attendance would be able to understand. He is by no means denigrating or dismissing Tongues as the Chapter will clearly bear out.
SPEAKS UNTO GOD
I Corinthians, Chapter 14, Verse 2 says, “For he who speaks in an unknown Tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.”
The phrase, “For he who speaks in an unknown Tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God,” tells us the following:
1. The word, “unknown,” was supplied by the translators, as it was not in the original Text. It actually means that it is unknown to the speaker and most of the time to the listeners as well, but not unknown as far as a language is concerned.
“Tongues” are always a language known somewhere in the world. It is not babble or gibberish as some detractors say. There are many languages, actually, the Bible has been translated into 2,179 different languages, but there are many more than that spoken in the world. Linguists state that there are 6,809 distinct languages.
2. The term, “speaks not unto men,” means that if the Lord is speaking to men, He will speak to them in the language they understand. Tongues are not meant to be understood by men, unless it is intended by the Holy Spirit to be interpreted.
3. The phrase, “But unto God,” is meant to say that one can speak in Tongues silently or in praise and worship because it is only to God to whom one is speaking. The phrase, “Howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries,” is to be understood in this fashion. “Mysteries” in the Greek is “musterion” and means “a secret.” A secret between God and man.
THE BIBLE EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT
There are five recorded instances of people receiving the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts, they are: Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-18, Acts 9:17, and Acts 10:44-46.
The verses given record the five instances of people being filled, covering a period of about 20 years, and involved from one to many individuals. Three times out of the five it is recorded they spoke with Tongues and the other two instances infer they spoke with Tongues.
Paul himself said in I Corinthians 14:18,
*IS IT NECESSARY TO SPEAK IN TONGUES? *
For Salvation, no, but if one wants the true New Testament experience, then one should want to speak with other Tongues exactly as the Bible says. Don’t make the mistake of seeking Tongues, we don’t seek Tongues, we seek the infilling of the Holy Spirit with Tongues being the initial physical evidence one has been filled.
*SEVEN STEPS TO RECEIVING THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT *
1. You must be Born-Again: There is only one requirement for one to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that is to be Saved. No other requirements are needed. Salvation now prepares one for the Holy Spirit to come and live and work in a new and dynamic fashion.
2. You must decide that it is Scriptural: You must settle it in your spirit once and for all that this great Gift is for all Believers for all time. There must not be any doubt in your heart. Don’t let Satan fill your mind with all kinds of negative thoughts. Don’t let those who are not believers of the Spirit Baptism influence you negatively.
3. You must have Faith: Everything we receive from the Lord is always by Faith. We are to believe what He has promised in His Word, and He has most certainly promised the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4, Joel 2:28-29, Isa. 28:11-12). Hebrews 11:6 says, “Without Faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.”
4. You must not fear: Don’t be afraid of opening yourself up to the spirit world, fearing that something of Satan will come upon you. Luke 11:11-13 says: “If a son ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them who ask Him?”
5. What to expect: You are to expect the Holy Spirit to put supernatural words (Tongues) into your spirit, and then for the Holy Spirit to move upon your vocal organs. The Lord will not force you to speak in Tongues. He will give the utterance, but we have to speak.
6. We must yield: By yielding I am meaning that in your heart you should say to the Lord, “I am asking You Lord to fill me with the Holy Spirit and by Faith I now receive.” We are not to beg, for the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a free Gift; neither are we to continually pray out loud in our own Tongue because one cannot speak in two languages at once.
7. Receive: You must understand that God has already given the Spirit and that it is a Gift and, consequently, the only thing one is to do respecting a Gift is to receive it. So you must say, “I am going to receive this Gift of God.”
So now if you haven’t received, then go through these steps and by Faith receive.
Pastor Donnie Swaggart
I Corinthians 14:39 – “Wherefore, Brethren, covet to Prophesy (desire the Gift of Prophecy), and forbid not to speak with Tongues. (This proclaims the fact that all the instructions he has given are not meant to disallow Tongues, but rather to put them in their rightful order. So where does that put the so-called religious leaders who ignore this particular statement, which is actually a ‘Commandment of the Lord’?)”
There is much confusion among non-Pentecostals regarding I Corinthians, Chapter 14. Paul wrote this chapter to regulate and give instruction as it regarded the three Spiritual Gifts: “Prophecy,” “Tongues,” and “Interpretation of Tongues,” which are called the “Vocal Gifts,” a part of the nine Gifts of the Spirit.
Next, are the three Revelation Gifts, which consist of: “Word of Wisdom,” “The Word of Knowledge,” and “The Discerning of Spirits.”
And last, the three Power Gifts: “The Gift of Faith,” “The Gift of Healing,” and “The Gift of the Working of Miracles.”
There is a difference in the Gift of Tongues and the Tongues one receives at the moment of their infilling. All who are filled with the Spirit Baptism will speak in Tongues, but not all who speak in Tongues have the Gift of Tongues. Just as one who has the Gift of Prophecy does not mean that person is a Prophet.
There was no regulation or order given to the Early Church regarding Tongues and Interpretation of Tongues. The gist of Paul’s command is very simple: a message in Tongues does the Church no good if there is no one to interpret it. Therefore, Paul states that the Gift of Prophecy would be of greater benefit to the Body as all in attendance would be able to understand. He is by no means denigrating or dismissing Tongues as the Chapter will clearly bear out.
SPEAKS UNTO GOD
I Corinthians, Chapter 14, Verse 2 says, “For he who speaks in an unknown Tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God: for no man understands him; howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries.”
The phrase, “For he who speaks in an unknown Tongue speaks not unto men, but unto God,” tells us the following:
1. The word, “unknown,” was supplied by the translators, as it was not in the original Text. It actually means that it is unknown to the speaker and most of the time to the listeners as well, but not unknown as far as a language is concerned.
“Tongues” are always a language known somewhere in the world. It is not babble or gibberish as some detractors say. There are many languages, actually, the Bible has been translated into 2,179 different languages, but there are many more than that spoken in the world. Linguists state that there are 6,809 distinct languages.
2. The term, “speaks not unto men,” means that if the Lord is speaking to men, He will speak to them in the language they understand. Tongues are not meant to be understood by men, unless it is intended by the Holy Spirit to be interpreted.
3. The phrase, “But unto God,” is meant to say that one can speak in Tongues silently or in praise and worship because it is only to God to whom one is speaking. The phrase, “Howbeit in the Spirit he speaks mysteries,” is to be understood in this fashion. “Mysteries” in the Greek is “musterion” and means “a secret.” A secret between God and man.
THE BIBLE EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT
There are five recorded instances of people receiving the Holy Spirit in the Book of Acts, they are: Acts 2:1-4, Acts 8:14-18, Acts 9:17, and Acts 10:44-46.
The verses given record the five instances of people being filled, covering a period of about 20 years, and involved from one to many individuals. Three times out of the five it is recorded they spoke with Tongues and the other two instances infer they spoke with Tongues.
Paul himself said in I Corinthians 14:18,
*IS IT NECESSARY TO SPEAK IN TONGUES? *
For Salvation, no, but if one wants the true New Testament experience, then one should want to speak with other Tongues exactly as the Bible says. Don’t make the mistake of seeking Tongues, we don’t seek Tongues, we seek the infilling of the Holy Spirit with Tongues being the initial physical evidence one has been filled.
*SEVEN STEPS TO RECEIVING THE INFILLING OF THE HOLY SPIRIT *
1. You must be Born-Again: There is only one requirement for one to be baptized with the Holy Spirit and that is to be Saved. No other requirements are needed. Salvation now prepares one for the Holy Spirit to come and live and work in a new and dynamic fashion.
2. You must decide that it is Scriptural: You must settle it in your spirit once and for all that this great Gift is for all Believers for all time. There must not be any doubt in your heart. Don’t let Satan fill your mind with all kinds of negative thoughts. Don’t let those who are not believers of the Spirit Baptism influence you negatively.
3. You must have Faith: Everything we receive from the Lord is always by Faith. We are to believe what He has promised in His Word, and He has most certainly promised the Holy Spirit (Acts 1:4, Joel 2:28-29, Isa. 28:11-12). Hebrews 11:6 says, “Without Faith it is impossible to please Him: for he that comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a Rewarder of them who diligently seek Him.”
4. You must not fear: Don’t be afraid of opening yourself up to the spirit world, fearing that something of Satan will come upon you. Luke 11:11-13 says: “If a son ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them who ask Him?”
5. What to expect: You are to expect the Holy Spirit to put supernatural words (Tongues) into your spirit, and then for the Holy Spirit to move upon your vocal organs. The Lord will not force you to speak in Tongues. He will give the utterance, but we have to speak.
6. We must yield: By yielding I am meaning that in your heart you should say to the Lord, “I am asking You Lord to fill me with the Holy Spirit and by Faith I now receive.” We are not to beg, for the infilling of the Holy Spirit is a free Gift; neither are we to continually pray out loud in our own Tongue because one cannot speak in two languages at once.
7. Receive: You must understand that God has already given the Spirit and that it is a Gift and, consequently, the only thing one is to do respecting a Gift is to receive it. So you must say, “I am going to receive this Gift of God.”
So now if you haven’t received, then go through these steps and by Faith receive.
Pastor Donnie Swaggart
