Predestination; are fates set in some cases?
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no, you understand. I don't know why, but you told me that you would prefer I do not use terms like 'trinity' because that word is not in the Bible
now you blabber about free speech
either way, think what you want, but this forum does not accept non-Trinitarian belief here so maybe quit plying your wares
annnnnnnnnnnnd......that's all folks . I doubt you are worried about new Christians since that was not your 'worry' in the first place
it seems it was not your personal preference to use certain words....there are certain words I will not use to convey my disrespect for your disingenuous renderings
la fin
now you blabber about free speech
either way, think what you want, but this forum does not accept non-Trinitarian belief here so maybe quit plying your wares
annnnnnnnnnnnd......that's all folks . I doubt you are worried about new Christians since that was not your 'worry' in the first place
it seems it was not your personal preference to use certain words....there are certain words I will not use to convey my disrespect for your disingenuous renderings
la fin
You misunderstand the letter to the Romans.
In both verses, Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2, Paul is explaining that the Jews are not rejected but destined.
Paul is explaining how the Jews failed in the letter to the Romans, no debate is possible.
Paul is discussing why Israel failed to achieve righteousness through the law.
The context dictates that God previously knew the Jews.
The subject is the same in both verses, the Jews are the subject.
Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
In both verses, Romans 8:29 and Romans 11:2, Paul is explaining that the Jews are not rejected but destined.
Paul is explaining how the Jews failed in the letter to the Romans, no debate is possible.
Paul is discussing why Israel failed to achieve righteousness through the law.
The context dictates that God previously knew the Jews.
The subject is the same in both verses, the Jews are the subject.
Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
When it comes to mankind, human behavior is an endless repetition of profound ego and selfishness.
Mankind has never changed, an appalling history of war and genocide, greed and gluttony.
So in the end, there is not a lot to learn.
The word, 'knowledge', actually undergirds Philosophy, Science, Literature, etc.
Always learning but never arriving at the truth.
Unfortunately, truth is delivered by revelation and that is external to mankind.
Mankind has never changed, an appalling history of war and genocide, greed and gluttony.
So in the end, there is not a lot to learn.
The word, 'knowledge', actually undergirds Philosophy, Science, Literature, etc.
Always learning but never arriving at the truth.
Unfortunately, truth is delivered by revelation and that is external to mankind.
1. i am presupposing that God is such as to conform to the all the revelations he has made about Himself in the bible. i try to reject any presuppositions that are not intrisic to the biblical revelation. your presupposition that God has known at once and throughout His beginningless and endless existence what will and will not exist as real things or events in at any time in this and every possible world is not something revealed in scripture, so I am not constrained to start with that as one of my presuppositions. Can you demonstrate that perfect knowledge must include what will and will not exist as real things or events in at any time in this and every possible world?
That would have the unfortunate implication that God always had been and always will be contemplating every evil and atrocity aand lie as ever present in His mind, making evil and falsehood eternally present in a perfectly good God. .
That would have the unfortunate implication that God always had been and always will be contemplating every evil and atrocity aand lie as ever present in His mind, making evil and falsehood eternally present in a perfectly good God. .
2. You then have to presume God is NOT PERFECT, but that he's capable of error - as that is the only REASON to plan everything so formulaicly, and to be so slow and tedious in planning.... because there is possibility of ERROR if you do not.
I begin by presupposing that God is perfect in the ways the Bible reveals he is perfect. I do not accept as presupposition a type of perfection smuggled into the bible from Greek philosophy.
What does perfect mean in Gen. 6:9, 17:1, Lev. 22:19; Deut. 18:13;
Deut. 32:4 defines the biblical kind of perfection God is referring to in Himself that man should emulate.
"He is the Rock, His work is perfect; FOR all His ways are justice: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.
Matt.5:48 Be ye therefore perfect , even as your Father in heaven is perfect.
The Bible says nothing about your presupposition that God's perfection includes an immunity from sequential discourse, or immunity from the possibility of learning new things that God sees happen for the first time within His creation. In fact, scripture shows God learning some things in real time, such as that Abraham had begun to genuinely fear God when he was willing to sacrifice his son believing that God would still somehow fulfil his promises through Isaac, and that God gets surprised by some things that happen, such as God regretting making man and being grieved by how thins had developed thus far. Gen. 6:6 That God had not expected this interim outcome on the way from His worlds beginning to its foreknown end, does not make God imperfect biblically, i.e. lacking in justice, or lacking in truth, or having iniquity, or unjust and or wrong. He found a way to resolve the problem and keep His planned end viable.
Where does the bible presuppose the kind of perfection for God that you are smuggling into it from Greek philosophy?
I begin by presupposing that God is perfect in the ways the Bible reveals he is perfect. I do not accept as presupposition a type of perfection smuggled into the bible from Greek philosophy.
What does perfect mean in Gen. 6:9, 17:1, Lev. 22:19; Deut. 18:13;
Deut. 32:4 defines the biblical kind of perfection God is referring to in Himself that man should emulate.
"He is the Rock, His work is perfect; FOR all His ways are justice: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is He.
Matt.5:48 Be ye therefore perfect , even as your Father in heaven is perfect.
The Bible says nothing about your presupposition that God's perfection includes an immunity from sequential discourse, or immunity from the possibility of learning new things that God sees happen for the first time within His creation. In fact, scripture shows God learning some things in real time, such as that Abraham had begun to genuinely fear God when he was willing to sacrifice his son believing that God would still somehow fulfil his promises through Isaac, and that God gets surprised by some things that happen, such as God regretting making man and being grieved by how thins had developed thus far. Gen. 6:6 That God had not expected this interim outcome on the way from His worlds beginning to its foreknown end, does not make God imperfect biblically, i.e. lacking in justice, or lacking in truth, or having iniquity, or unjust and or wrong. He found a way to resolve the problem and keep His planned end viable.
Where does the bible presuppose the kind of perfection for God that you are smuggling into it from Greek philosophy?
I would suggest that the God you are imagining is smaller than mine. Your God cannot achieve a goal unless He moves all the pieces on the chessboard Himself all the time. My God can achieve His goals even when that means improvising solutions to the attempt by His creatures to render His goals inviable. Which takes the greater intelligence to do?
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No, that's applied imagination and will. Obtaining dinner would be applied potency., not omnipotence.
Niki, before God created anything, was He already omnipotent? Yes. How did He create a universe from nothing without applying that omnipotence he already had? Do you think He was not applying His omnipotence to create the cosmos?
Niki, before God created anything, was He already omnipotent? Yes. How did He create a universe from nothing without applying that omnipotence he already had? Do you think He was not applying His omnipotence to create the cosmos?
3. You then have to presume the members of the trinity are NOT IN PERFECT COMMUNION, because a lack of communion and understanding between the members of the Godhead is the ONLY reason for them to have a meeting and discuss everything in detail.
Again, I presuppose what the Bible reveals, not what others try to smuggle into the Bible by defining terms in a way some system of thought alien to the bible defines it. The term "perfect communion" does not occur in the Bible.
What do you mean by perfect communion? and where is your definition of perfect communion revealed in the Bible.? Where does scripture say that all three omnipotent distinct divine persons all think exactly the same thoughts at the same time? Three persons can agree about everything that is being discussed without them always thinking exactly the same things at the same time.
Again, I presuppose what the Bible reveals, not what others try to smuggle into the Bible by defining terms in a way some system of thought alien to the bible defines it. The term "perfect communion" does not occur in the Bible.
What do you mean by perfect communion? and where is your definition of perfect communion revealed in the Bible.? Where does scripture say that all three omnipotent distinct divine persons all think exactly the same thoughts at the same time? Three persons can agree about everything that is being discussed without them always thinking exactly the same things at the same time.
Again, I don't accept a presupposition about God not provide by scripture. Your presupposition that the Godhead does not use language is not in the Bible. It is a Greek metaphysical construct of eternity as timelessness that you are smuggling into the Bible.
Gen. 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light." "Let there be light" is a sentence of linked meanings arranged in a sequential order forming a comprehensible statement. "Be there let light" would not have meaning. To sequence meanings intelligibly and pronounce them takes time. Probably a lot less time for God than for us. But if "Let" comes before "there" which comes before "be" which comes before "light", and "Lete there be light comes before, Let there be a firmament... " , then there is before and after. There is therefore time. The word "Let" is being articulated, then that changes to the word "there" being articulated, etc.
That's why I posted earlier that time is a function of change. If there is change there is time. If there is no change, there is no way to conceive of time.
Gen. 1: 3 And God said, Let there be light." "Let there be light" is a sentence of linked meanings arranged in a sequential order forming a comprehensible statement. "Be there let light" would not have meaning. To sequence meanings intelligibly and pronounce them takes time. Probably a lot less time for God than for us. But if "Let" comes before "there" which comes before "be" which comes before "light", and "Lete there be light comes before, Let there be a firmament... " , then there is before and after. There is therefore time. The word "Let" is being articulated, then that changes to the word "there" being articulated, etc.
That's why I posted earlier that time is a function of change. If there is change there is time. If there is no change, there is no way to conceive of time.
Sequential action by the distinct persons with the Godhead produce time. So no, I don't need to presume God is stuck in, or limited by, corporeal time. God can do whatever He wills and He creates time as he does so.
Where does your presupposition that God does not experience any two or more things sequentially come from in the bible?
Where does your presupposition that God does not experience any two or more things sequentially come from in the bible?
Since I do not presume that God is stuck in, or limited by, physical corporeal time. Nor do I think God is imperfect (by that word's biblical use and meaning). Nor that He is unknowing. The word inefficient isn't in my Bible. Where is it in yours and how is inefficient defined?
Why did you put "lot of time" in quotation marks, as if you are quoting me. I did not say anything about God's planning taking a lot of time. I don't know how much time "a lot" is to a being with no beginning.
Why did you put "lot of time" in quotation marks, as if you are quoting me. I did not say anything about God's planning taking a lot of time. I don't know how much time "a lot" is to a being with no beginning.
If God knows all, which he does, would he not know all decisions you will make including those last minute ones if a spontaneous nature? If you change your mind a thousand times and ar the very last moment, would God not know that in advance of your actually doing it? The answer should be pretty clear.