Yes thats fine 'dogs' 'evil people' 'enemies' prophecy relates to Jesus etc... im not disputing that - Im trying to clarify the correct translation - I often have debates with Jews, Muslims, atheists, when a Jewish person says its been translated incorrectly it kind of puts the breaks on you response to the debate - I like to be armed!
Psalms 22:16 - 2 different translations - which is correct?
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Yes thats fine 'dogs' 'evil people' 'enemies' prophecy relates to Jesus etc... im not disputing that - Im trying to clarify the correct translation - I often have debates with Jews, Muslims, atheists, when a Jewish person says its been translated incorrectly it kind of puts the breaks on you response to the debate - I like to be armed!
consider that your acknowledging it’s about Jesus on the cross being a prophecy
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
Psalm 22:1, 7-8, 15-16, 18 KJV
it’s actually a specific prophecy about how Jesus felt and what was going through his mind as he was on the cross having his hands and feet pierced to hang him there and it’s fulfilled here in the gospel
v1 “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
The fulfillment during Jesus crucifixion
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Matthew 27:46
Another example
“All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him”
The fulfillment as Jesus was on the cross having his hands and feet pierced
“And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, and saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.”
Matthew 27:39-43 KJV
And one last example
“For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
that part is fulfilled here as Jesus hands and feet had been pierced in the cross
“And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”
Mark 15:24-25 KJV
The subject of prophecy in psalm 22 is Jesus being pierced on the cross his hands and feet and also his side just understanding that it’s about the crucifixion should make it clear this is only a couple examples from one psalm but the entire gospel is like that it’s written in the law prophets and psalms prophetically so when it was fulfilled we don’t have to wonder
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring? All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. My strength is dried up like a potsherd; And my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; And thou hast brought me into the dust of death. For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
Psalm 22:1, 7-8, 15-16, 18 KJV
it’s actually a specific prophecy about how Jesus felt and what was going through his mind as he was on the cross having his hands and feet pierced to hang him there and it’s fulfilled here in the gospel
v1 “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
The fulfillment during Jesus crucifixion
“And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
Matthew 27:46
Another example
“All they that see me laugh me to scorn: They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: Let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him”
The fulfillment as Jesus was on the cross having his hands and feet pierced
“And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads, and saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and elders, said, He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God.”
Matthew 27:39-43 KJV
And one last example
“For dogs have compassed me: The assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: They pierced my hands and my feet. They part my garments among them, And cast lots upon my vesture.”
that part is fulfilled here as Jesus hands and feet had been pierced in the cross
“And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take. And it was the third hour, and they crucified him.”
Mark 15:24-25 KJV
The subject of prophecy in psalm 22 is Jesus being pierced on the cross his hands and feet and also his side just understanding that it’s about the crucifixion should make it clear this is only a couple examples from one psalm but the entire gospel is like that it’s written in the law prophets and psalms prophetically so when it was fulfilled we don’t have to wonder
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according to the blueletterbible the word translated pierced is karah H3738. As someone previously pointed out that word means to dig or bore a hole. The word occurs 16 times in the OT. Here are the translation counts for the KJV.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 16x
The KJV translates Strong's H3738 in the following manner: dig (12x), make (2x), pierce (1x), open (1x).
Here are the main meanings.
כָּרָה kârâh, kaw-raw'; a primitive root; properly, to dig; figuratively, to plot; generally, to bore or open:—dig, open.
The verses that use it nearly all have to do with digging a well or hole or grave or pit. One interesting verse that uses it and is translated "opened" is Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not desire; Mine ears hast Thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast Thou not required.
Pierced or bored open with nails or dug holes in My hands and feet portrays what He was saying in Psalm 22:16. He was nailed to the cross through His hands and feet which is what Psalm 22 is all about.
KJV Translation Count — Total: 16x
The KJV translates Strong's H3738 in the following manner: dig (12x), make (2x), pierce (1x), open (1x).
Here are the main meanings.
כָּרָה kârâh, kaw-raw'; a primitive root; properly, to dig; figuratively, to plot; generally, to bore or open:—dig, open.
The verses that use it nearly all have to do with digging a well or hole or grave or pit. One interesting verse that uses it and is translated "opened" is Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering Thou didst not desire; Mine ears hast Thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast Thou not required.
Pierced or bored open with nails or dug holes in My hands and feet portrays what He was saying in Psalm 22:16. He was nailed to the cross through His hands and feet which is what Psalm 22 is all about.
E
All of Psalm 22
Psalm 22
For the Chief Musician; set to “The Doe of the Morning.”
A Psalm by David.
(Son to Father during His suffering)
22:1 My 'El, My 'El, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from My Salvation (Yĕshuw`ah),
and from the words of My groaning?
22:2 My 'Elohiym, I cry in the daytime,
but You don’t answer;
in the night season, and am not silent.
22:3 But You are Holy, (Qadowsh)
You Who inhabit the praises of Israel.
22:4 Our fathers trusted in You.
They trusted, and You delivered them.
22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered.
They trusted in You, and were not disappointed.
22:6 But I am a Worm, and no Man;
a Reproach of men, and Despised by the people.
22:7 All those who see Me mock Me.
they insult Me with their lips.
they shake their heads, saying,
22:8 “He trusts in YHVH;
let Him deliver Him.
Let Him rescue Him, since He delights in Him.”
22:9 But You brought Me out of the womb.
You made Me trust at My mother’s breasts.
22:10 I was thrown on You from My mother’s womb.
You are My 'El since My mother bore Me.
22:11 Don’t be far from Me, for trouble is near.
For there is none to help.
22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me.
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
22:13 they open their mouths wide against Me,
lions tearing Prey and roaring.
22:14 I am poured out like water.
All My bones are out of joint.
My heart is like wax;
it is melted within Me.
22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd.
My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth.
You have brought Me into the dust of death.
22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me.
A company of evildoers have enclosed Me.
they have pierced My hands and feet.
22:17 I can count all of My bones.
they look and stare at Me.
22:18 they divide My garments among them.
they cast lots for My clothing.
22:19 But don’t be far off, YHVH.
You are My Help: hurry to help Me.
22:20 Deliver My soul from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
22:21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth!
Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen,
You have answered Me.
22:22 I will declare Your Name to My brothers.
In the midst of the assembly, I will praise You.
(Son to believers about Father)
22:23 You who fear YHVH, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him!
Stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel!
22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred
the affliction of the Afflicted,
Neither has He hidden His face from Him;
but when He cried to Him, He heard.
22:25 Of You comes My praise in the great assembly.
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
(Spirit about believers and Father and Son)
22:26 The humble shall eat and be satisfied.
They shall praise YHVH who seek after Him.
Let your hearts live forever.
22:27 All the ends of the earth
shall remember and turn to YHVH.
All the relatives of the nations shall worship before You.
22:28 For the kingdom is YHVH's.
He is the Ruler over the nations.
22:29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and bow down.
All those who go down to the dust shall bow before Him,
those who can’t keep their soul alive.
22:30 Posterity shall serve Him.
Future generations shall be told about YHVH.
22:31 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness
to a people that shall be born,
for He has done it.
Psalm 22
For the Chief Musician; set to “The Doe of the Morning.”
A Psalm by David.
(Son to Father during His suffering)
22:1 My 'El, My 'El, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from My Salvation (Yĕshuw`ah),
and from the words of My groaning?
22:2 My 'Elohiym, I cry in the daytime,
but You don’t answer;
in the night season, and am not silent.
22:3 But You are Holy, (Qadowsh)
You Who inhabit the praises of Israel.
22:4 Our fathers trusted in You.
They trusted, and You delivered them.
22:5 They cried to You, and were delivered.
They trusted in You, and were not disappointed.
22:6 But I am a Worm, and no Man;
a Reproach of men, and Despised by the people.
22:7 All those who see Me mock Me.
they insult Me with their lips.
they shake their heads, saying,
22:8 “He trusts in YHVH;
let Him deliver Him.
Let Him rescue Him, since He delights in Him.”
22:9 But You brought Me out of the womb.
You made Me trust at My mother’s breasts.
22:10 I was thrown on You from My mother’s womb.
You are My 'El since My mother bore Me.
22:11 Don’t be far from Me, for trouble is near.
For there is none to help.
22:12 Many bulls have surrounded Me.
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
22:13 they open their mouths wide against Me,
lions tearing Prey and roaring.
22:14 I am poured out like water.
All My bones are out of joint.
My heart is like wax;
it is melted within Me.
22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd.
My tongue sticks to the roof of My mouth.
You have brought Me into the dust of death.
22:16 For dogs have surrounded Me.
A company of evildoers have enclosed Me.
they have pierced My hands and feet.
22:17 I can count all of My bones.
they look and stare at Me.
22:18 they divide My garments among them.
they cast lots for My clothing.
22:19 But don’t be far off, YHVH.
You are My Help: hurry to help Me.
22:20 Deliver My soul from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
22:21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth!
Yes, from the horns of the wild oxen,
You have answered Me.
22:22 I will declare Your Name to My brothers.
In the midst of the assembly, I will praise You.
(Son to believers about Father)
22:23 You who fear YHVH, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him!
Stand in awe of Him, all you descendants of Israel!
22:24 For He has not despised nor abhorred
the affliction of the Afflicted,
Neither has He hidden His face from Him;
but when He cried to Him, He heard.
22:25 Of You comes My praise in the great assembly.
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
(Spirit about believers and Father and Son)
22:26 The humble shall eat and be satisfied.
They shall praise YHVH who seek after Him.
Let your hearts live forever.
22:27 All the ends of the earth
shall remember and turn to YHVH.
All the relatives of the nations shall worship before You.
22:28 For the kingdom is YHVH's.
He is the Ruler over the nations.
22:29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and bow down.
All those who go down to the dust shall bow before Him,
those who can’t keep their soul alive.
22:30 Posterity shall serve Him.
Future generations shall be told about YHVH.
22:31 They shall come and shall declare His righteousness
to a people that shall be born,
for He has done it.
H738
אריה ארי
’ărı̂y ’aryêh
ar-ee’, ar-yay’
From H717 (in the sense of violence); a lion: - (young) lion, + pierce [from the margin].
LXX related word(s)
G1475 edaphos
G3023 leon
G3023
λεών
leōn
leh-ohn’
A primary word; a “lion”: - lion.
LXX related word(s)
H738 ari
H744 aryeh
H3715 kephir
H3833 lavi
H7826 shachal
אריה ארי
’ărı̂y ’aryêh
ar-ee’, ar-yay’
From H717 (in the sense of violence); a lion: - (young) lion, + pierce [from the margin].
LXX related word(s)
G1475 edaphos
G3023 leon
G3023
λεών
leōn
leh-ohn’
A primary word; a “lion”: - lion.
LXX related word(s)
H738 ari
H744 aryeh
H3715 kephir
H3833 lavi
H7826 shachal
E
Psalm 40 is an amazing Psalm. It is clearly the Son speaking and is even quoted in the NT attributing it to the Son. However He confesses to sin, which is actually our sin, which He took upon Himself as His own. This may be difficult to accept and will likely get pushback, but please try to think it through before accusing of heresy or blasphemy. So many things tell us Psalm 40 is His prayer. It makes it even more personal when considering He confessed our sins as His own, in our stead as the Lamb in Issac's stead and the Atonement Lamb and the Passover Lamb.
(comments in parens)
Psalm 40
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.
(Son about Father)
40:1 I waited patiently for YHVH.
He turned to Me, and heard My cry.
40:2 He brought Me up also out of a horrible pit,
out of the miry clay.
He set My feet on a rock,
and gave Me a firm place to stand.
40:3 He has put a new song in My mouth,
even praise to our 'Elohiym.
Many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in YHVH.
40:4 Blessed is the Man Who makes YHVH His Trust,
and doesn’t respect the proud,
nor such as turn aside to lies.
(Son to Father)
40:5 Many, YHVH, My 'Elohiym, are the wonderful works
which You have done,
and Your thoughts which are toward us.
They can’t be declared back to You.
If I would declare and speak of them,
they are more than can be numbered.
(Son about Himself to Father)
40:6 Sacrifice and offering You didn’t desire.
You have opened My ears.
You have not required burnt offering and sin offering.
(Son says that the Word is about Him)
40:7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come.
It is written about Me in the book in the scroll.
(Son does His Father's will)
40:8 I delight to do Your will, My 'Elohiym.
Yes, Your Torah is within My heart.”
40:9 I have proclaimed glad news of righteousness
in the great assembly. Behold, I will not seal My lips,
YHVH, You know.
40:10 I have not hidden Your righteousness
within My heart. I have declared
Your faithfulness and Your salvation.
I have not concealed Your mercy and
Your truth from the great assembly.
40:11 Don’t withhold Your compassion from Me, YHVH.
Let Your mercy and Your truth
continually preserve Me.
(Son confesses our sins as if His)
40:12 For innumerable evils have surrounded Me.
My iniquities have overtaken Me,
so that I am not able to look up.
they are more than the hairs of My head.
My heart has failed Me.
40:13 Be pleased, YHVH, to deliver Me.
Hurry to help Me, YHVH.
(Son prays against the wicked)
40:14 Let them be disappointed and confounded together
who seek after My soul to destroy it.
Let them be turned backward and brought to dishonor
who delight in My hurt.
40:15 Let them be desolate by reason of their shame
that tell Me, “Aha! Aha!”
(Son about believers)
40:16 Let all those who seek You
rejoice and be glad in You.
Let such as love Your Salvation say continually,
“Let YHVH be exalted!”
40:17 But I am Poor and Needy.
May the 'Adonay think about Me.
You are My Help and My Deliverer.
Don’t delay, My 'Elohiym.
(comments in parens)
Psalm 40
For the Chief Musician. A Psalm by David.
(Son about Father)
40:1 I waited patiently for YHVH.
He turned to Me, and heard My cry.
40:2 He brought Me up also out of a horrible pit,
out of the miry clay.
He set My feet on a rock,
and gave Me a firm place to stand.
40:3 He has put a new song in My mouth,
even praise to our 'Elohiym.
Many shall see it, and fear, and shall trust in YHVH.
40:4 Blessed is the Man Who makes YHVH His Trust,
and doesn’t respect the proud,
nor such as turn aside to lies.
(Son to Father)
40:5 Many, YHVH, My 'Elohiym, are the wonderful works
which You have done,
and Your thoughts which are toward us.
They can’t be declared back to You.
If I would declare and speak of them,
they are more than can be numbered.
(Son about Himself to Father)
40:6 Sacrifice and offering You didn’t desire.
You have opened My ears.
You have not required burnt offering and sin offering.
(Son says that the Word is about Him)
40:7 Then I said, “Behold, I have come.
It is written about Me in the book in the scroll.
(Son does His Father's will)
40:8 I delight to do Your will, My 'Elohiym.
Yes, Your Torah is within My heart.”
40:9 I have proclaimed glad news of righteousness
in the great assembly. Behold, I will not seal My lips,
YHVH, You know.
40:10 I have not hidden Your righteousness
within My heart. I have declared
Your faithfulness and Your salvation.
I have not concealed Your mercy and
Your truth from the great assembly.
40:11 Don’t withhold Your compassion from Me, YHVH.
Let Your mercy and Your truth
continually preserve Me.
(Son confesses our sins as if His)
40:12 For innumerable evils have surrounded Me.
My iniquities have overtaken Me,
so that I am not able to look up.
they are more than the hairs of My head.
My heart has failed Me.
40:13 Be pleased, YHVH, to deliver Me.
Hurry to help Me, YHVH.
(Son prays against the wicked)
40:14 Let them be disappointed and confounded together
who seek after My soul to destroy it.
Let them be turned backward and brought to dishonor
who delight in My hurt.
40:15 Let them be desolate by reason of their shame
that tell Me, “Aha! Aha!”
(Son about believers)
40:16 Let all those who seek You
rejoice and be glad in You.
Let such as love Your Salvation say continually,
“Let YHVH be exalted!”
40:17 But I am Poor and Needy.
May the 'Adonay think about Me.
You are My Help and My Deliverer.
Don’t delay, My 'Elohiym.
The context reveals that this is about Jesus. His hands were not eaten by lions and none of His bones were broken. We are to always go to KJV first, and it is our final authority on such matters.
Psalms 22: (KJV)
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psalms 22: (KJV)
9But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.
10I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.
11Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
12Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.
13They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
14I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
15My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
16For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
17I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.
18They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.