Requirements of Salvation

[mailmandan]

Are you able to support with Scripture where someone who did not believe the Gospel was baptized?

Simon the sorcerer in Samaria is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. (verses 20-21) Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ.

In Acts 19:2, Paul asked these disciples of John if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verses 2-3 reveals that they had not yet believed in Christ unto salvation. They had not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and they received the baptism of John, but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving belief in Christ, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit which is the exception, not the rule.

There are different levels of belief, and different objects of belief, and not all that’s called "belief" is saving belief in Christ. In the parable of the soils, we see a shallow, temporary belief that has no root, produces no fruit, lacks moisture and withers away. (Matthew 13:20-21; Luke 8:6). Such soil represents a sinner not properly prepared in heart to believe the gospel.

John has portrayed people who "believe" but are clearly not saved. There is a stage in the progress of belief in Jesus that "falls short of firmly rooted and established belief resulting in salvation." As we see in John 2:23-25, in which their belief was superficial in nature and Jesus would not entrust/commit Himself to them.

Also, in John 8:31-59, where the Jews who were said to have "believed in him" turn out to be slaves to sin, indifferent to the words of Jesus’, children of the devil, liars, accused Jesus of having a demon and were guilty of setting out to stone and kill the one they have professed to believe in.

I know multiple people who had been water baptized in various false religions and cults, including Roman Catholicism, Mormonism, Campbellism etc... but were not saved at the time they first received water baptism because they did not truly believe the gospel. I was one of them. Upon later coming to believe the gospel and joining a Christian church, such people were re-baptized and this time it was "believers" baptism. The Roman Catholic church baptizes infants who are not even capable of believing the gospel. So if you can believe that every single "professing" Christian who has ever lived truly believed the gospel when they received water baptism, then you can believe anything and are extremely naive!

 

[JBTN]

So am I correct in saying that you believe Paul speaks of a third baptism for Christians in 1 Corinthians 12:13?

To me it looks identical to the second baptism you mentioned.

 

[crossnote]

It is not instructing the Body of Christ now on the salvation doctrine, just like the rest of the OT.

from Paul himself...
1 Corinthians 10:6 KJV
[6] Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

2 Timothy 3:16 KJV
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

 

[Wansvic]

^ "having been buried with him in THE baptism, in which also ye rose with him through the faith of the working of God, who did raise him out of the dead" Colossians 2:12



"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?" Romans 6:3


[neither speaks of "water" here = ) ]

Notice how a connection is seen concerning water baptism in the scriptures below. Colossians mentions the spiritual burial that takes place during baptism. And baptism is where sins are forgiven. The initial record of when sins are washed away is seen in Acts 2:38. Notice the instruction in Acts states everyone must submit to water baptism.

Jesus told the apostles to teach all nations and water baptize them. (Matt 28:29) He also said those who believe and are baptized will be saved. (Mark 16:16)

Col 2:12-14
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The very first instructions given concerning mankind's obligation as seen in the message of the gospel:
"... be baptized EVERY ONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,..." (Acts 2:38)

 

[Wansvic]

So Jesus lied when He said that all who believe on Him shall be saved??

No, Jesus did not lie. He said all who believe on Him SHALL be saved. When those who believe Him do what He says they will be saved.

Did Jesus lie when He stated that those who believe and are baptized will be saved? No. There is no contradiction between Jesus' statements. True belief in the entire gospel message will prompt one to be buried with Jesus in baptism because He commanded it. (Matt 28:19, Mark 16:16, John 3:3-5)

 

[Wansvic]

Martin Luther said in effect, you cannot be saved until you realize you cannot save yourself. Only then will you look outside of yourself and trust in Christ alone to save you.

Regardless of what individuals state. The ultimate authority is seen in the biblical record. Obedience to water baptism is commanded and seen throughout its pages.

 

[Wansvic]

If water baptism is required for salvation why did Jesus shed His blood on Calvary?

For the cause of Christ
Roger

The shed blood of Jesus is WHAT paid the penalty for mankind's sin.
Water baptism is WHEN sin is washed away.

 

[Wansvic]

Being dipped/immersed in water without 1st being immersed/indwelt with Christ's Holy Spirit baptism, will only result in getting wet

Beginning in Acts 10:44 Spiritual baptism is 1st & water baptism follows. The repent & be water baptized narrative isn't applicable for today's Church/Body of Christ.

Repentance: Strong's Hebrews ( H7725:שׁוּב ) to turn back, return, a wholehearted turning to God.
(NOTE: The different way repent translates in Hebrew vs Greek. John wasn't speaking Greek, nor was he preaching to gentiles. Gentiles had no relationship, no covenant, no hope & were without God (Eph 2:12)

OT Jewish repentance rituals: rending of garments, wearing sackcloth, sitting in ashes, putting ashes on top of his head, fasting, weeping, wailing. Every Jew at John's baptism was familiar with repentance/turning back to God rituals. (See Joel 2:12-13).

Emblem = A symbolic representation of a particular quality, concept, action:

Water baptism is an emblem: An outwardly visible expression of our indwelling Spiritual Baptism. (1 Cor 3:16, 6:19, 2 Cor 6:16, 2 Tim 1:14, Gal 4:6, Rom 8:9,11,15).

Only Christ has the power & authority to baptize with God's indwelling Holy Spirit.

Matt 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
(NOTE: John the Baptist made clear that Christ would baptize with the Holy Spirit)

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(NOTE: Translators capitalized Spirit to identify deity when referring the Holy Spirit. Only Christ can baptize with the indwelling Holy Spirit.)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision """made without hands""", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: The baptism of the Holy Spirit is a SPIRITUAL circumcision/covenant done without hands & without water)

Deut 30:6 (A) the Lord thy God will circumcise thine heart,

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and """circumcision is that of the heart""", """in the spirit""", and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(NOTE: Circumcision of the heart, in the spirit)

New Covenant Spiritual Seal: Christ's baptism with the indwelling Holy Spirit

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise.
NOTE: Christ SEALS believers with Gods promise of the indwelling Holy Spirit)

Eph 1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(NOTE: The Earnest = a down payment/pledge/promise. The Holy Spirit by which only Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is a down payment/pledge/promise. That Christ will come & get His people)

Ehp 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby """ye are sealed unto the day of redemption""".
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED Gods Holy Spirit until the day their Adamic corruptible bodies are redeemed & transformed into, eternal, incorruptible Heavenly bodies)

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a DEPOSIT/PLEDGE & SEAL, until the soon coming day of our final redemption)

Rom 8:11 If the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
(NOTE: God's Spirit dwells in every believer)

Rom 5:5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us.
(NOTE: God places/seals his love in our hearts via His indwelling Holy Spirit given unto us)

1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, "and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you"?
(NOTE: The Promised Gift of God's Holy Spirit dwells in every believer)

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is "Christ in you", the hope of glory:
(NOTE: Christ/God's Spirit is in you)

Eph 3:6 This mystery is that thru the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of 1 body, & sharers together in the promise "in Christ"
(NOTE: Gentiles share in the PROMISED Holy Spirit)

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
(NOTE: The Comforter < (Capitalized showing deity) > Holy Spirit will abide with you FOREVER)

KJV Dictionary Definition: OR'DINANCE, n.
A rule established by authority; a permanent rule of action. An ordinance may be a law or statute of sovereign power. In this sense it is often used in the Scriptures. Ex. 15. Num. 10. Ezra 3. It may also signify a decree, edict or rescript, and the word has sometimes been applied to the statutes of Parliament, but these are usually called acts or laws. In the United States, it is never applied to the acts of Congress, or of a state legislature.

Observance commanded, established rite or ceremony. Heb. 9. In this sense, baptism and the Lord's supper are denominated ordinances.

There were many ordination/admittance requirements under Mosaic law. Daily sacrifices, adhere with absolute fidelity to every commandment the Lord gave to the Nation of Israel Deut 28, or be cursed Vs 15-65.

Only ONE admittance requirement under the NT is BELIEVE, Jesus is Lord, paid sin's required wage & rose on the 3rd day.

After salvation/Christ's eternally sealing baptism with God's indwelling Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11, Acts 1:5)

There are two Commandments: Love God 1st & love your brother believer.

An two Ordinance the Lord invoked: Partake in Water Baptism & the Lords Supper.


Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words: Verb, G4972, sphragizo - "TO SEAL" - is used to indicate

(d) ownership and security, together with destination, Revelation 7:3-Revelation 7:5 (as with the noun in Revelation 7:2; See A); the same three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13, in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," not as the aorist participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (See also Ephesians 1:14); so Ephesians 4:30, "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;" so in 2 Corinthians 1:22, where the Middle Voice intimates the special interest of the Sealer in His act

The New Testament began on the Day of Pentecost when the promised Holy Ghost fell. Instructions that all were to believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah of the Old Testament was given. The instruction did not stop there.

Those upset after realizing that Jesus was the Messiah asked what THEY MUST DO? The answer: Repent, be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This commandment applies to all that the Lord shall call. (Acts 2:38-39) There is no doubt that the Lord is still calling sinners to repentance.

It is seen in scripture that all of the components listed by Peter were necessary for everyone. The order in which water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost occurred varied. However, each record depicting adherence to the commands confirms all were necessary.

Acts 2:1 Holy Ghost given first, water baptism in Jesus' name afterward. (Jews)
Acts 8:12-17 Water baptism in Jesus' name first, Holy Ghost given afterward. (Samaritans- Half Jew, Half Gentile)
Acts 10:44-48 Holy Ghost given first, water baptism in Jesus' name afterward. (Gentiles)
Acts 19:2-6 Had been water baptized by John the Baptist, Paul re-baptized them in Jesus' name, Holy Ghost received afterward. (Jews)
Acts 22:16 Holy Ghost first, water baptism in Jesus' name in order to wash away sins. (Apostle Paul-Jewish)

Every person living today is a descendant of one of the listed groups. Therefore, the word speaks of the necessity for all to comply with the instructions. No one is exempt from being obedience to God's commands.

 

[FlyingDove]

This is totally untrue! John spoke and wrote a very simple kind of Greek. John, and 1,2,3 John are the easiest books in the NT to translate. When I was studying for the final of 1st year Koine Greek, we had 7 passages we had to translate, and also write down all the verb forms used in the passage. When I read the passage from John, I never went back, it was so easy. Revelation is harder, but he still uses syntax and word order of Hebrew, in the Greek text. These became known as "Hebraisms" and John was the only user of this, because his Greek wasn't very advanced. The consistency in his writing helps us to know they were written by the same author.

Further, there are NO extant, early Hebrew manuscripts of any book in the NT. Koine Greek was the Lingua Franca of the Roman Empire. It was one of the conditions God set up before the birth of Christ, so the gospel would spread rapidly, along with Pax Romana and safe roads and seas. Because almost everyone understood Greek, the writers of the Books of the NT wrote in Greek, so the maximum number of people in the Roman Empire would be able to read or hear the originals and copies. Even Matthew, who wrote to Hebrews, and the writer of Hebrews, did not use Hebrew. Hebrew was a dead language by the 1st century AD. The boys learned to read Hebrew in Torah school, but not many spoke it. Besides, Aramaic was the language used in the ancient near east, never Hebrew, in that area. Most Hebrews had lost their Hebrew by 300 BC, when the OT was translated from Hebrew into Greek. it wasn't till the 8th to the 10th centuries that the Masoretes added the vowel pointings to help with pronunciation.

The Romans employed many people and when they built a new city in that area, they used Hebrew craftsmen, like Joseph the carpenter, father of Jesus. It is likely Jesus also used Greek when working, before he began his ministry, as when Jesus was interrogated by Pontius Pilate, there is no translator mentioned. They both spoke in Greek!

Actually there were many gentiles looking to know God. The Roman centurion, the woman at the well (Samaria), the people in the Decapolis were mostly Gentiles, and Jesus healed a demon possessed Gentile man, who became a follower, when he was on the east side of the Sea of Galilee. Also the woman who begged Jesus to heal her daughter was a Gentile, and when Jesus implied Gentiles were dogs, she replied the dogs eat the food which has fallen From the Master's plate to the ground.

Jesus came for the Jews, but so many rejected him, that he opened up the gospel for everyone, which was always his purpose.

I suggest you read the Bible more, maybe learn Hebrew and Greek, and study some history, before you going throwing out utterly wrong statements about the Bible. The NT was written in Greek. No Hebrew at all. You need to look in the OT for Hebrew!!

I stand behind the post. Here is another from Hebrew dictionary translation for repent. I read several & chose to use Strongs (most popular today) in the post.

Milon dictionary English-Hebrew repent (verb) Biblical Hebrew, the idea of repentance (to return) !

Repentance: Strong's Hebrews ( H7725:שׁוּב ) to turn back, return, a wholehearted turning to God.

John the Baptist didn't write the book of Jn nor Jn 1, 2 or 3 that you referenced.

Matt 3:1 In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

John the Baptist, a Jew from the tribe of Levi. Is preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, to other Jews under Mosaic law. If your postion is that, John is speaking Greek, I strongly disagree. Best wishes, FD

 

[Wansvic]

EternalFire

Immersed into what? It doesn’t say into water....

consider here is Luke 24:47.

“and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.”

The more common reading of Acts 2:38 leads to an understanding that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins, but here Jesus clearly tells the Apostles that “repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations”. The word “for” is actually eis in Greek. So, it becomes, “a change of mind into forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations.” If you interpret Acts 2:38 as above, all of a sudden it agrees exactly with Luke 24:47. It is also in perfect harmony with Acts 3:19 and Acts 10:43.

Jesus statement in Luke 24:47 makes reference to what ultimately happened on the Day of Pentecost when Peter gave the specific instructions for salvation. It was the first time the message was given. The message included the need for all to repent which would ultimately lead to submitting to water baptism in Jesus' name wherein the person would receive forgiveness of sins. Peter's statement also addressed the promised gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[G2RBeliever]

Romans 3:23-26 For all have sinned,and come short of the glory of God;
Being justified freely by His grace through the REDEMPTION that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through FAITH IN HIS BLOOD,to declare His righteousness FOR THE REMISSION OF SINS that are past,through the forebearance of God;

Acts 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said,We ought to OBEY God rather than men.

2 Thessalonians 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know NOT God,and that OBEY NOT THE GOSPEL OF OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST:

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation,and the sword of the Spirit,WHICH IS THE WORD OF GOD:

Hebrews 4:12 FOR THE WORD OF GOD is quick,and powerful,and sharper than any twoedged sword,PIERCING EVEN TO THE DIVIDING ASUNDER OF SOUL AND SPIRIT,and of the joints and marrow,AND IS A DISCERNER OF THE THOUGHTS AND INTENTS OF THE HEART.

Matthew 15:9 But in vain they do worship me,TEACHING FOR DOCTRINES THE COMMANDMENTS OF MEN........Colossians 2:20-22

John 14:15 If ye love me,KEEP MY COMMANDMENTS.

1John2:3 And hereby we know that WE KNOW HIM,if we keep his commandments.





We cannot seperate Jesus and Paul ( being the apostles to the gentiles),the Holy Spirit inspired Word of God is cohesive!

 

[Wansvic]

Oh, ok, whatever...

And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
(Act 16:30-31)

I guess Paul and Silas need to get educated by some internet posters.

Upon review of the entire recorded event. It is stated that Paul and Silas shared the word of the Lord. Which included the need for him and his entire family to be water baptized. He and his family obeyed Paul and Silas and were water baptized in the middle of the night. This truth is seen in Jesus' words in Mark 16:16. And corresponds with the message given on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 16:30-34
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31

After saying this they went on to explain what they were expected to believe:

"And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. Acts 32:34

 

[FlyingDove]

The New Testament began on the Day of Pentecost when the promised Holy Ghost fell. Instructions that all were to believe in Jesus as the promised Messiah of the Old Testament was given. The instruction did not stop there.

Those upset after realizing that Jesus was the Messiah asked what THEY MUST DO? The answer: Repent, be baptized EVERYONE of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sin and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. This commandment applies to all that the Lord shall call. (Acts 2:38-39) There is no doubt that the Lord is still calling sinners to repentance.

It is seen in scripture that all of the components listed by Peter were necessary for everyone. The order in which water baptism and receiving the Holy Ghost occurred varied. However, each record depicting adherence to the commands confirms all were necessary.

Acts 2:1 Holy Ghost given first, water baptism in Jesus' name afterward. (Jews)
Acts 8:12-17 Water baptism in Jesus' name first, Holy Ghost given afterward. (Samaritans- Half Jew, Half Gentile)
Acts 10:44-48 Holy Ghost given first, water baptism in Jesus' name afterward. (Gentiles)
Acts 19:2-6 Had been water baptized by John the Baptist, Paul re-baptized them in Jesus' name, Holy Ghost received afterward. (Jews)
Acts 22:16 Holy Ghost first, water baptism in Jesus' name in order to wash away sins. (Apostle Paul-Jewish)

Every person living today is a descendant of one of the listed groups. Therefore, the word speaks of the necessity for all to comply with the instructions. No one is exempt from being obedience to God's commands.

I have had other unfruitful water baptism discussions with you. Your position is water baptism is a salvation requirement. We disagree, out of respect to a brother Christian I'll briefly reply.

In my opinion adding anything to faith in Christ sin payment & resurrection. Claims what Jesus did/suffered is inadequate & somehow it's our great works/obedience that are necessary.

Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
(NOTE: By the obedience of one/JESUS.)

Your opening statement here was:
Quote: ""The New Testament began on the Day of Pentecost when the promised Holy Ghost fell"" end quote...

We agree here, in that, God's salvation/eternally sealing gift the indwelling Holy Spirit is the new covenant.

Read what you replied to me:

You posted this:
Acts 10:44-48 Holy Ghost given first, water baptism in Jesus' name afterward. (Gentiles)
(My reply: These gentiles, vs 44, they heard & believed, the Holy Spirit came upon them. No repentance, no water baptism, no Mosaic law keeping etc. Vs 45 The onlooking Jews were ASTONISHED that the ON Gentiles was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. By faith & faith alone these gentiles received God's salvation/eternally sealing gift the indwelling Holy Spirit.

You said:
Acts 19:2-6 Had been water baptized by John the Baptist, Paul re-baptized them in Jesus' name, Holy Ghost received afterward. (Jews)
(My reply: John's baptism remissed/pardoned nothing & couldn't invoke the Holy Spirit's baptism. Only faith in Jesus sin payment & resurrection & only Jesus can do that)

Acts 22:16 Holy Ghost first, water baptism in Jesus' name in order to wash away sins. (Apostle Paul-Jewish)
(My reply: It isn't the water that washed away Pauls sins. It was calling on/believing that Jesus was their long promised Messiah.)

The closing statment in my post was:

Two Ordinance the Lord invoked: Partake in Water Baptism & the Lords Supper. This will be my last post to you in this thread. Best wishes, FD

 

[Wansvic]

I was trying to point out that, if someone wants to adopt a doctrine that you need faith + works to be saved, just pointing them to verses that states otherwise will not be good enough to convince them.

I know many people think differently. However, the word will always be the ultimate authority. The instructions given on the Day of Pentecost must not be discounted.

James 2:18-20
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[JBTN]

Jesus statement in Luke 24:47 makes reference to what ultimately happened on the Day of Pentecost when Peter gave the specific instructions for salvation. It was the first time the message was given. The message included the need for all to repent which would ultimately lead to submitting to water baptism in Jesus' name wherein the person would receive forgiveness of sins. Peter's statement also addressed the promised gift of the Holy Ghost.

What are your thought on this verse?

Hebrews 9:10 ESV

but deal only with food and drink and various washings, regulations for the body imposed until the time of reformation.

The Greek word translated washings is baptismois. It comes from baptizo and means washing, dipping, submerging. So, this verse tells us that baptisms as regulations for the body will only be imposed until the time of reformation.

 

[notuptome]

The shed blood of Jesus is WHAT paid the penalty for mankind's sin.
Water baptism is WHEN sin is washed away.

Totally wrong. Sin is not on the outside that it can be washed away like dirt. Very serious error in soteriology. Spiritually lethal to mix grace and works.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[Wansvic]

Jesus does not contradict Paul or vice-versa. It becomes a matter where they don't know how to reconcile Jesus/Paul/James. They are prone to works and will side and cling on to any hint of works just to bolster their pride...a work of the flesh.

It is sad that anyone would think that one's obedience to God's commands has anything to do with pride.

 

[crossnote]

Upon review of the entire recorded event. It is stated that Paul and Silas shared the word of the Lord. Which included the need for him and his entire family to be water baptized. He and his family obeyed Paul and Silas and were water baptized in the middle of the night. This truth is seen in Jesus' words in Mark 16:16. And corresponds with the message given on the Day of Pentecost.

Acts 16:30-34
"And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." Acts 16:30-31

After saying this they went on to explain what they were expected to believe:

"And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.
And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.
And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house. Acts 32:34

Point? I never brought up water baptism. Or did I?

 

[crossnote]

It is sad that anyone would think that one's obedience to God's commands has anything to do with pride.

That depends whether the obedience comes as a result of faith and the new birth or by self effort of the flesh. The latter tends towards pride. Remember the old Sinatra song, "I Did it My Way"? (even though he ended up hating the song, as we should hate our self righteousness).
Why? Are you sad?

 

[Dave-L]

Regardless of what individuals state. The ultimate authority is seen in the biblical record. Obedience to water baptism is commanded and seen throughout its pages.

But it only provides a witness to your faith and a clear conscience.