REVELATION 4-7 ONE RAPTURE OR TWO RAPTURES

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Sep 9, 2018
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#1
Here we have the Apostle John, the beloved Apostle and he is on the island of Patmos. Everybody thought he got a bum deal--all he got was to take care of Mary, that was it--remember that? Oh no, that's not all for him. He got to write the Book of Revelation and he gets to go up to heaven too. God had something special for him at the end. Couldn't kill him boiling him in oil, I wouldn't want to go through the system without dying that way. Anyway, God had a blessing for him and here it is.

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).

"Hereafter," they always miss that. He's taking him up here to look hereafter. Listen, if you are at the end of time--if you are in eternity--you can definitely see the end from the beginning. God can, yea, look over here, see David, see Solomon ... look way over there, this is what is going to happen. God can do that! And so He took John up there to see what is going happen. It's the Revelation of Jesus Christ! We are going to see what Jesus is going to do. So, I like this 'hereafter.'

Some would say this 'hereafter' was the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. Nuh uh, the Book of Revelation was written twenty years after that occurrence. So 'hereafter' means . . . 'hereafter!'

John was going to be shown the things which would come to pass in the future, not the things which were in heaven in John's lifetime. John first sees twenty-four elders sitting around the Throne of God, and he sees four beasts in the midst and around about the Throne. Then in Revelation chapter five, which is obviously a continuation in time of what John saw. John sees the seven-sealed book in verse 1 . . .

"And I saw in the right hand of him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals" (Revelation 5:1).

This is very interesting, what John is allowed to see.

"And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne" (Revelation 5:7).

When you do the connection with the thrones, it's amazing how the Book will open up to you and show you how the throne of David is the throne of glory in Jerusalem during the Millennium. That is where Jesus receives all the crowns--sits on that throne--because He won it physically on planet earth.

John had been weeping . . .

"And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof" (Revelation 5:5).

Now let's let the Scripture continue to describe what John saw. He saw a book. He saw how powerful the book is. Who can open it? No one. John starts to weep. You got a Book. You know how you receive revealed truth? By Him. By Him! He is the only One worthy to open this Book. So all of a sudden now business is picking up with John. Now he is seeing this continue.

Why is this important? Because John has gone up to heaven to see the future, and when he sees what is up yonder all of a sudden he sees a choir and they are singing. And what is important is that chapter five is in front of chapter six. Chapter six starts the seals. And if you get chapters four and five together, YOU GOT IT, no one can trick you into starting with chapter six.

"And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth. And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands; Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing" (Revelation 5:8-12).

What are they saying? "Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing!" Well, who are the they that are singing this new song? and number over a hundred million? Why? There is no doubt about it. This is the church of God, seen by John, already in heaven before the opening of the first seal by the Lord Jesus Christ in Revelation 6:1. And you need to get that, Yes!

How did they get there before the seals were even opened if they are supposed to go through part of the Tribulation?

Now, consider this passage . . .

"After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:9-14).

Now, again, and pay attention to this . . .

"Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb" (Revelation 7:14).
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#2
You know this is chapter seven, right? The other song was sung where? Chapter five. Before the seals were opened by the Lord in chapter six. Now we are in chapter seven.

Now, you got to know which came out of the great Tribulation and that was after Revelation 6:17 and before the seventh seal in Revelation 8:1. So what do we conclude? We conclude there are two raptures. If God says something, just go with it--stop looking and chopping stuff up.

I've got a Rice Bible. I like brother Rice. His book on prayer is great. He raised his family right, and did all kinds of other good things. To me, though, he was really jacked up on doctrine though. And when you read the notes about who is going to partake of that fruit in the New Jerusalem for the healing of the nations--If the Christian is worthy, he is going to eat of that fruit. I kept reading that and said, "Are you nuts??" My body is going to be fashioned like the Lord's glorious body when I see Him--Amen, all that vile nature is gone, man, I'll be like Him! I don't need nothing to eat! Where did you get that from?? Trying to force things into the Bible. Can't do it, man. Just have to mark it down. So John R. Rice is a chopper of the Scriptures. Just butchers the Scriptures. Make it say what you want it to say!

"Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth" (II Timothy 2:15).

That is so you don't get jacked up. You don't give no offense to who? to who? The Jew, the Gentile and the church of God. If I go across the street to my neighbors, and get his mail, open it and start reading it--I could go to prison. I really could. Stupid! So for me to read other peoples mail and try to apply it to me doctrinally? Stupid!

Hey, You endure unto the end!
Hey, You drink poison, bless your little heart!

I just want you to see that we are living in a day and age of delusion.

But I'm going to tell you what! You need to know the Book! God commands you to know that Book! I mean, it's for Him. You are approved by Him. Not by man, being smart, and knowing it--but by God. You are doing what He wants you to do. So if you can see what is going on in our country. Everything that was progressive and liberal then, is mainstream now. The thought behind that, like I told you, was the hippy songs of the past--the age of Aquarias, and with the Beatles--Imagine--every time there is a big event they always sing that song, "There is no heaven, there is no hell." You ought to look at the lyrics. That is the philosophy! We are going to have a globalization where everybody is going to be naked, live in a perfect environment, not going to eat no meat--just think about that a little while--ain't gonna kill no animals, going to eat all vegetables. Man, our kids are going to be so perfect and so smart. Only problem with that, you're as wicked as hell. It ain't gonna work. It just ain't gonna work. Yet people are buying into it. Christians are buying into it. Removing all the separation and borders.

It's called the ecumenical movement.

It's this grouping together of people claiming to be Christians and they are all trying to get together and have a happy little family. That started in the 30's. Baptist preachers preached against the communist stuff a long time ago. Somehow they lost their message--stopped preaching it. Our people are getting swept in. Well, if if it's good, and everybody's nice and everybody's perfect--everything is cool. No! Not necessarily.

This, this is it. This is the manual. You men in the service. You can take an AR or M-16, and you can take it apart and put it back together. It's just one of those things. You get used to it. You can take it apart. You get used to it. Christians ought to be used to their weapon. And if you ain't got your weapon, that's your main thing. That is your defense against your brain and your thoughts being taken captive. And if that ain't down. If your kids don't have that in their hearts, they have no counter and the devil is powerful.

I don't know, I'm just going to deliver the goods as best as I can. Give you what I can. Get you thirsty and show you that the Book has already spoke about what is going to take place--and you aren't going to change it.

- It tells you about the heart of man.
- It tells you how the Antichrist is going to convince everybody--by speech.
- It tells you what eventually he is going to do--sit on the mercy seat--in the temple.

Well, people, the temple isn't built yet but it is going to be built. That tells me something is coming, and that is the 'abomination of desolation' of that temple spoken of in Daniel. So all that was said 800 years ago is coming. It's closer than it ever was. Therefore, the deceivableness, the delusion, is even more. Get you to think you are doing good, so everythings is okay. Well, it's okay for awhile. At the Judgement Seat of Christ it will be required of you of what sort you did, what was your motive behind what you did. And I'm telling you what--if it is contrary to this--you got problems. And He deals with us now, before we even get there. Everyone of us knows. Everyone of us that is saved knows that that is true. We got ups and downs, and when we go down guess who's controlling our brain? It ain't God. When He comes in, He takes charge. The Holy Spirit gives us peace. Boom!

Then how you do up there depends on how humble you are. Then all of a sudden you get a big head? It's like that. Just like the Bible. Okay send them Moses. Okay, send them Joshua. Give them a deliverer. Help them when they are down. Well, they have a big Deliverer coming, don't they. At the second advent they will see Him.

And last but not least, it is called the 'Time of Jacob's Trouble,' not the 'Time of the church's trouble' ... Jacob's trouble. Amen!
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#3
Two raptures? what do you mean? I cant even find one rapture in Revelation. The Revelation 4:1 mentions no resurrection its just John really, I understand it could be typology, but COULD.

If there is a verse you know of where the church is in heaven BEFORE the tribulation let me know
There are two distinct crowds in heaven here . . . how did they get there? and who do you believe they are?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#4
There is no rapture in the book of revelation - as for the oft repeated refrain of the misdispensationalists there is zero evidence to support a later writing of John's revelation.

The fact is he was told he would have to prophesy again before his death.

Rev 10:11 And they *said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”

You need to ditch Darbyism.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#5
"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter" (Revelation 4:1).
Many try to apply this to the Rapture of the Church, but as we can see, it is addressed to John in order for him to see visions in Heaven and then report back everything in his prophetic book.

To answer the title, there is only ONE RAPTURE -- the Resurrection/Rapture of the saints of God.
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#6
One body presence of Christ and our gathering together unto him <---PAROUSIA <--translated coming

When John pens Revelation the following is used concerning JESUS

WAS<---Past tense
IS<----Present tense
IS to COME<---Future TENSE

And the honest truth rejected by many.....ALL things JIVE with one coming when the false imminent return is chunked out the window and a post great tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering is considered......

I have said some time...ALL things must jive with ONE coming "Parousia" of Christ......
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#7
There is no rapture in the book of revelation - as for the oft repeated refrain of the misdispensationalists there is zero evidence to support a later writing of John's revelation.

The fact is he was told he would have to prophesy again before his death.

Rev 10:11 And they *said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and tongues and kings.”

You need to ditch Darbyism.
Or John is going to be called upon to preach during the tribulation similar to that of the two witnesses.

Is it really necessary to invoke Darbyism?
 

Locutus

Senior Member
Feb 10, 2017
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#8
John states at the beginning and end of the his revelation:

(Rev 1:1 KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to show unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

(Rev 1:3 KJV) Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
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(Rev 22:10 KJV) And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

John was told he would prophesy again "shortly, for the time is at hand"

Any theology ignoring the above is a delusion, especially dispensational "theology".
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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#9
Well there is definately one in rev 14.
There is one before the trib in 1 thes 4,and like you say those innumerable one had to get there DURING the trib.
Not counting the 144k ( most likely another rapture) we see at least 3.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#10
Thanks for making this thread bro

Are you suggesting Rev 4:1 is pre-trib rapture, and later in revelation its the rapture of the tribulation saints?

Btw Rev 5:10 is DIFFERENT in my bible. It doesnt say us but them.

WHICH ONE IS RIGHT? This is important for knowing. If it says US, it proves the church is in heaven BEFORE first seal open. PROVING conclusively a pre trib rapture
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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#11
Just a few others raptured already are;Enoch,Elijah,Jesus,and the patriarchs in paradise.
The 2 witnesses will be raptured in the future.
Quite a few raptures actually.
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#12
Thanks for making this thread bro

Are you suggesting Rev 4:1 is pre-trib rapture, and later in revelation its the rapture of the tribulation saints?

Btw Rev 5:10 is DIFFERENT in my bible. It doesnt say us but them.

WHICH ONE IS RIGHT? This is important for knowing. If it says US, it proves the church is in heaven BEFORE first seal open. PROVING conclusively a pre trib rapture
That is what the verses say ... I do not know why your Bible uses ‘them.’ It is clear that there is over one hundred million - I take that to be the saints of the church age
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
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#13
That is what the verses say ... I do not know why your Bible uses ‘them.’ It is clear that there is over one hundred million - I take that to be the saints of the church age
They washed their robes.
The main rapture before the trib doesn't.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#14
That is what the verses say ... I do not know why your Bible uses ‘them.’ It is clear that there is over one hundred million - I take that to be the saints of the church age
It depends on the greek text.

New International Version
You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth."

New Living Translation
And you have caused them to become a Kingdom of priests for our God. And they will reign on the earth."

English Standard Version
and you have made them a kingdom and priests to our God, and they shall reign on the earth.”

Berean Study Bible
You have made them into a kingdom, priests to serve our God, and they will reign upon the earth.”

Berean Literal Bible
and You have made them a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

New American Standard Bible
"You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth."

King James Bible
And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

The "us" seems to be a textus receptus reading. The "they" seems to be the Critical text (?) reading. Perhaps the MT?
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#15
I do not know why the others use 'them'. My confidence is in the Book that God has used to the saving of countless numbers of souls over the past 407 years.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#16
One body presence of Christ and our gathering together unto him <---PAROUSIA <--translated coming

When John pens Revelation the following is used concerning JESUS

WAS<---Past tense
IS<----Present tense
IS to COME<---Future TENSE

And the honest truth rejected by many.....ALL things JIVE with one coming when the false imminent return is chunked out the window and a post great tribulation/pre-wrath ingathering is considered......

I have said some time...ALL things must jive with ONE coming "Parousia" of Christ......
I got no problem with one parousia of Christ.
But i'd like to ask about what you said there: "false imminent return". I think its clear from the NT that Paul thought the rapture would occur in his lifetime. It was imminent to him!

thats why he writes to the thessalonians and says "US who remain to the.. coming of the Lord". He includes himself in the US. Now both thessalonians whom he wrote to and Paul is long gone.
The same thing happens in James, and Revelation, "close, nigh, soon, quickly".
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#17
Believing that something is 'imminent' includes believing that it will happen in your lifetime. It is still 'imminent' and I believe that it will happen in my lifetime. It will definitely happen in somebody's lifetime.

Imminent has more meanings that immediately . . .

Synonyms & Antonyms for imminent

Synonyms
approaching, coming, forthcoming, impending, nearing, oncoming, pending,proximate, upcoming
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#18
Believing that something is 'imminent' includes believing that it will happen in your lifetime. It is still 'imminent' and I believe that it will happen in my lifetime. It will definitely happen in somebody's lifetime.

Imminent has more meanings that immediately . . .

Synonyms & Antonyms for imminent

Synonyms
approaching, coming, forthcoming, impending, nearing, oncoming, pending,proximate, upcoming
Yup this was my point exactly. I believe its biblical to always assume it can happen in your lifetime.
Otherwise whats the point of "watching"?
 
Sep 9, 2018
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#19
Yup this was my point exactly. I believe its biblical to always assume it can happen in your lifetime.
Otherwise whats the point of "watching"?
"And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed" (Romans 13:11).

"For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Romans 8:18-23).
 

dcontroversal

Senior Member
Dec 12, 2013
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#20
I got no problem with one parousia of Christ.
But i'd like to ask about what you said there: "false imminent return". I think its clear from the NT that Paul thought the rapture would occur in his lifetime. It was imminent to him!

thats why he writes to the thessalonians and says "US who remain to the.. coming of the Lord". He includes himself in the US. Now both thessalonians whom he wrote to and Paul is long gone.
The same thing happens in James, and Revelation, "close, nigh, soon, quickly".
Paul never thought that.....the "US" is not indicative of him believing it would happen in his time frame, but rather a generic application concerning what ever generation was alive at the time it takes place......Paul knew full well that certain events had to take place first.....and we often forget that these men write under inspiration and according to God's view of it....to the eternal God is it soon, close, nigh at hand and even already done.....