Salvation is for the Whole World

[rogerg]

This tells me God died specifically for the UNGODLY. That means every human born.

Plus it explains He would hardly be dying for the Righteous...

Of ourselves, no one is righteous. The righteousness is Christ's righteousness and given by Christ as a gift to those whom He saves, when He saves them. Before then,
no one is righteous.

The "we" in your verses (or those Paul was speaking to) represents only those who have already been saved/born-again, not everyone.
Notice the "by whom also we have access" (V2) and the "by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" (v5). The same claims simply cannot be applied to the unsaved as were applied in those verses to the saved (the "we").

[Rom 5:2,5 KJV]
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ...
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. ...

 

[Dmarie]

1 John 2:2 KJV
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Was reminding myself this morning to never feel unworthy of God's love and mercy and stray away from his presence, Jesus did not die on the cross for the righteous people, he did it for us and all our imperfections, there is NOTHING under the sun we can do that his GRACE will not cover! Always find your way back to his embrace, he's always waiting for us with open arms.

 

[rogerg]

t is you who is deliberately refusing to understand the plain truths stated by Christ. Since He plainly said in verse 17 that He came to save the whole world, you are also being dishonest. Read the entire passage again, then let everyone know that you have been MISREPRESENTING the Gospel, and you are repenting of that sin.

You assume the "world" in view in verse 17 is this current world. However, the Bible makes reference to two worlds, not one: this current world and the world to come. The world to come is the one God loves, this one is not.
Jesus clearly tells us as much in John 18:36 where He informs that His kingdom is NOT of this world. The world to come and all who will be in it is the world He saved.

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[Mar 10:30 KJV]
30 But he shall receive an hundredfold now in this time, houses, and brethren, and sisters, and mothers, and children, and lands, with persecutions; and in the world to come eternal life.

 

[Magenta]

Then Jesus's offering couldn't have been for all. You can't have it both ways - it must
be either for all sins for everyone, or you're not understanding those verses.

You leave faith out of your equation.

 

[Underwhosewings]

For any who are unsure,
The Lord Jesus Christ finished the work, nothing we do, can be added, to that work, to obtain salvation.

But we have a responsibility to, by Gods grace, keep His word.

John 17:4,6 KJV
I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.
[6] I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word

 

[PennEd]

Actually nothing to boast about, the faith required is the same for each and every person.

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I don't understand this response.

If everyone is given the same measure of faith, then why isn't everyone acting upon it after hearing the Gospel?

We are ALL lost sinners, some committing horrific sins before acting on the Gospel. Yet others, maybe worse, maybe better, reject the Gospel.

If BOTH have the same measure of faith, but only some accept the Gospel, then why wouldn't it be boasting for those who accepted it?
So why haven't WE suppressed the truth in unrighteousness?

Are we better? More moral? More intelligent to understand it?

I definitely see how these questions pinch and upset so many.
But if the truth is that God has gifted, as Ephesians says, US the faith required to believe, then that is the ONLY way we CAN'T boast.

 

[Snacks]

Well, according to what you've said, all sin, including unbelief was also forgiven. If all sin has been forgiven
then there could no judgment against anyone regardless of whether faith is placed in Jesus or not.

Blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. People who don’t believe in Jesus are calling God a liar and are guilty of blasphemy against the Spirit.

 

[Snacks]

If everyone is given the same measure of faith, then why isn't everyone acting upon it after hearing the Gospel?

Parable of the Sower may help explain this.

 

[HeIsHere]

I'm not trying to be confrontational, but I don't understand this response.

If everyone is given the same measure of faith, then why isn't everyone acting upon it after hearing the Gospel?

We are ALL lost sinners, some committing horrific sins before acting on the Gospel. Yet others, maybe worse, maybe better, reject the Gospel.

If BOTH have the same measure of faith, but only some accept the Gospel, then why wouldn't it be boasting for those who accepted it?
So why haven't WE suppressed the truth in unrighteousness?

Are we better? More moral? More intelligent to understand it?

I definitely see how these questions pinch and upset so many.
But if the truth is that God has gifted, as Ephesians says, US the faith required to believe, then that is the ONLY way we CAN'T boast.

If you are speaking about Romans 12:3 where the phrase, “the measure of faith that God has assigned”, when I read that in context it is not speaking about "saving faith."

You are right if people were given different measures of faith then there would be different degrees of salvation but we know that is not true.

In the context of Romans 12:3-8 Paul introduces the idea of a “measure of faith” God is equipping every believer with unique gifts within the body of believers.

See where you and I differ perhaps, is that "saving faith" is not the gift, salvation is the gift by grace, conditional upon believing in Christ Jesus and His work on one's behalf.

If God gives us "saving faith" then we actually do have reason to boast, because not everyone is given this faith otherwise everyone would be saved.

I am not saying you follow Calvinist doctrine, but ultimately the Calvinist who believes they are regenerated first, given to the gift of faith by God has far more reason to boast than the person who was not given the gift of regeneration and faith because somehow they were chosen over someone else.

But ultimately faith is not a work and that is why no one can boast, it is the opposite of work >>>>> it is receiving the gift of salvation.

 

[IsaiahA]

That’s exactly why I crush Calvinism the way I do, and do so with the Word of God.

Unconditional Election, the will bound by sin, NOT free, and Limited Atonement were seen long before John Calvin ever lived, based on scripture. See my earlier post showing this titled:

Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace

I can understand a person struggling to see limited atonement, sometimes called definite atonement or particular redemption, but there is no way to read the NT with a clear unbiased mind and deny particular redemption and unconditional election. The Arminian heresy was not recognized or accepted by any major denomination until John Wesley and the Methodists. Methodism removed Article 17 from the 39 Articles of the Church of England adopted in 1571 AD. That is the article on predestination. When a belief system is closer to Roman Catholicism than the Bible and Reformers it has become heretical.

I grew up in a church which taught that "predestination" only applied to believers and was found only 4 times in the Bible. That is at best a half-truth and worse an outright lie based on twisting the KJV translation choices.

The Greek word translated "predestinate" is proorizo and it is found 6 times in the NT, not 4. The two where the KJV used different words, actually used a phrase or synonym that means the same thing. As seen in the following two:

"For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done." (Acts 4:27-28)

YES! The greatest sin in history was pre-determined, foreordained or predestinated to be done in whatsoever way God determined. The ASV translates "foreordained" as it does in all 6 occurrences. The RSV, NRSV, and the ESV "predestined", the Douay-Rhiems "decreed to be done".

The second place to which I refer is:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." (1Cor 2:7-8)

The KJV used synonyms for predestined, "determined before" and "ordained before" in those two verses. On this verse, 1 Cor. 2:7-8, the ASV uses "foreordained" and the RSV, NRSV and ESV use "decreed before".

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Of ourselves, no one is righteous. The righteousness is Christ's righteousness and given by Christ as a gift to those whom He saves, when He saves them. Before then,
no one is righteous.

The "we" in your verses (or those Paul was speaking to) represents only those who have already been saved/born-again, not everyone.
Notice the "by whom also we have access" (V2) and the "by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us" (v5). The same claims simply cannot be applied to the unsaved as were applied in those verses to the saved (the "we").

[Rom 5:2,5 KJV]
2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. ...
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us. ...

You just don't get it!

All we are supposed to do is Glorify God.

How is God Glorified to the ENTIRE WORLD if people like you diminish what the Bible states for your interpretation?

The Bible claims God is LOVE!

Your definition shows only a Partial LOVE.

How come you are making God look bad?

The Bible tells us on SEVERAL ACCOUNTS God Died for the Whole World.

That shows the TRUE LOVE of God.

But when I ignore what the Bible claims for your own reasoning skills, I and the world no longer see God as LOVE.

You truly are removing Glory from God by how I view God after reading your thoughts.

Do you believe that God is happy about you making Him look like He is purposefully sending people to HELL?

 

[rogerg]

Blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. People who don’t believe in Jesus are calling God a liar and are guilty of blasphemy against the Spirit.

Your comment is ridiculous and does not deserve a reply.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

Rogerg,

Your own reasoning skills put onto paper will send more people to HELL than God will!

But you have made it appear that God is sending them to HELL because He chooses to.

I wish today was Judgement Day and you were standing before God this very moment!

 

[rogerg]

You just don't get it!

All we are supposed to do is Glorify God.

How is God Glorified to the ENTIRE WORLD if people like you diminish what the Bible states for your interpretation?

The Bible claims God is LOVE!

Your definition shows only a Partial LOVE.

How come you are making God look bad?

The Bible tells us on SEVERAL ACCOUNTS God Died for the Whole World.

That shows the TRUE LOVE of God.

But when I ignore what the Bible claims for your own reasoning skills, I and the world no longer see God as LOVE.

You truly are removing Glory from God by how I view God after reading your thoughts.

Do you believe that God is happy about you making Him look like He is purposefully sending people to HELL?

You're making this stuff up as you go along.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

You're making this stuff up as you go along.

You are saying the Whole World is only the Saved. That is not what the Bible claims. It claims the Whole World is the entire population from Adam until Armageddon.

 

[rogerg]

Rogerg,

Your own reasoning skills put onto paper will send more people to HELL than God will!

But you have made it appear that God is sending them to HELL because He chooses to.

I wish today was Judgement Day and you were standing before God this very moment!

I wish so too. Your idea of salvation bases it upon one's works not grace - that is not good.
The below is the condemnation the condemned will be judged by, and by which, they will be sent to hell. Everyone, God
has not chosen to save will be subject to that condemnation and found guilty.

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

 

[rogerg]

You are saying the Whole World is only the Saved. That is not what the Bible claims. It claims the Whole World is the entire population from Adam until Armageddon.

What did the verses I posted say? I didn't write them, they are from the Bible. Here they are again, what do you think they mean?

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

I wish so too. Your idea of salvation bases it upon one's works not grace - that is not good.
The below is the condemnation the condemned will be judged by, and by which, they will be sent to hell. Everyone, God
has not chosen to save will be subject to that condemnation and found guilty.

[Jhn 3:19 KJV] 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

I don't believe in works one bit OTHER THAN I now LOVE MY GOD SO MUCH I WANT TO WORK AND OBEY HIM!!

EVERYONE, from Adam to the End, whether we Accept His Invitation or Deny it, He DIED for us all giving us a FREE GIFT OF SALVATION. You and Myself are fortunate we said, Yes, to His Invitation.

 

[The_Watchers_2017]

What did the verses I posted say? I didn't write them, they are from the Bible. Here they are again, what do you think they mean?

[Jhn 18:36 KJV] 36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

[Luk 18:30 KJV] 30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

You are presenting Scripture that is solely about Believers and the Kingdom of God being present with them because we are FILLED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT!

His Dying was so EVERYONE could be a part of this Kingdom of God that is present among Believers.

You have knowledge but you ain't very DEEP at all..

 

[Nehemiah6]

You have knowledge but you ain't very DEEP at all..

The only "knowledge" Roger has is the indoctrination and brainwashing he has received in his cult. That is just like the JWs. You could present them with a hundred Scriptures to refute their false teachings, but it would make absolutely no difference. They would continue to cling to their nonsensical beliefs. Calvinism is not only nonsensical but it is a PERVERSION of the Gospel. And that is extremely serious.