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Pilgrimshope

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Sep 2, 2020
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Read verse 16.
You do not obey and then walk in the Spirit. You walk in the Spirit and thereby do not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
You seem to have it backwards. You think in and of yourself you have the capacity to obey and please God. This is simply not so. It is only as we walk in the Spirit that we will not sin. This is why we are to seek first his kingdom and His RIGHTEOUSNESS.
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭

“It is only as we walk in the Spirit that we will not sin. This is why we are to seek first his kingdom and His RIGHTEOUSNESS.”

amen

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. ( reference to baptism see Roman’s 6)

If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭5:16-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children; and walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour. But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: (for the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth;) proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭5:1-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

timemeddler

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Jul 13, 2023
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for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus

how far do we take this chicken vs the egg argument?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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how do we interpret James 2:24 🤔 ?
In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) Works bear out the justification that already came by faith.

In the Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, the Greek word for justified "dikaioo" #1344 is:

1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In Matthew 12:37, we read - "For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned." This is because our words (and our works) reveal the condition of our hearts. Words/works are evidence for, or against a man being in a state of righteousness.

God is said to have been justified by those who were baptized by John the Baptist (Luke 7:29). This act pronounced or declared God to be righteous. It did not make him righteous. The basis or ground for the pronouncement was the fact that God IS righteous. Notice that the NIV reads, “acknowledged that God's way was right.." The ESV reads, “they declared God just.” This is the "sense" in which God was “justified.” He was shown to be righteous.

Matthew 11:19 "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified/vindicated/shown to be right by her deeds."
 

mailmandan

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Apr 7, 2014
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God used BOTH the ark and water to transport Noah and his family from a sinful existence to a completely cleansed one. It is a foreshadow of the NT reality of when a believer is placed INTO Jesus wherein their sins are remitted.
Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Sins were not remitted for Noah by the water, and it was the ARK (not the water) that saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) Only the wicked in Noah's day actually came in contact with the water and they all perished.

According to Paul, belief and obedience to the NT command to be water baptized (in the name of Jesus) is when a believer is actually placed into Jesus. (Rom. 6:3-4)
False. In regard to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Believers receive remission of sins and are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit when they believe the gospel/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13)

Baptism is God's chosen instrument of cleansing wherein sins are remitted in accordance with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Rom. 6: 6, Acts 22:16...) False. This signified but not procured in the waters of baptism.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

Paul clarified that IF a person is planted together in the likeness of Jesus' death they will also be in likeness of His resurrection.
True, yet again, this is signified but not procured in the waters of baptism.
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
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how do we interpret James 2:24 🤔 ?
First, you should know the audience. Proper study is knowing the audience. See James 1:1. Don’t read commentaries, search the scriptures. The scriptures will define James 1:1.
 

Wansvic

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Nov 27, 2018
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Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. Sins were not remitted for Noah by the water, and it was the ARK (not the water) that saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) Only the wicked in Noah's day actually came in contact with the water and they all perished.

False. In regard to Romans 6:3-4, as Greek scholar AT Robertson explains - Baptism is the public proclamation of one's inward spiritual relation to Christ attained before the baptism. See on "Galatians 3:27" where it is like putting on an outward garment or uniform. Into his death (ei ton qanaton autou). So here "unto his death," "in relation to his death," which relation Paul proceeds to explain by the symbolism of the ordinance. The picture in baptism points two ways, backwards to Christ's death and burial and to our death to sin, forward to Christ's resurrection from the dead and to our new life pledged by the coming out of the watery grave to walk on the other side of the baptismal grave. There is the further picture of our own resurrection from the grave. It is a tragedy that Paul's majestic picture here has been so blurred by controversy that some refuse to see it. It should be said also that a symbol is not the reality, but the picture of the reality.

https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/eng/rwp/romans-6.html

Before mentioning baptism in chapter 6, Paul had repeatedly emphasized that faith (not baptism) is the instrumental cause of salvation/justification. (Romans 1:16, 3:22-30; 4:4-6, 13; 5:1) That is when the old man was put to death and united in the likeness of His death, which water baptism symbolizes and pictures. Righteousness is "imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised up because of our justification." (Romans 4:24,25)

Paul clearly teaches that what is signified in baptism (buried and raised with Christ) actually occurs "through faith." Christians are "buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead" (Colossians 2:12). Justification on account of union in Christ's death, burial and resurrection is brought about "through faith" - and is properly symbolized by dipping the new believer in and out of the water.

Believers receive remission of sins and are placed into the body of Christ by the Holy Spirit when they believe the gospel/place faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. (Acts 10:43; 11:17; 13:39; 16:31; 15:7-9; 26:18; Romans 3:24-26; 1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:13)

Baptism is God's chosen instrument of cleansing wherein sins are remitted in accordance with Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. (Rom. 6: 6, Acts 22:16...) False. This signified but not procured in the waters of baptism.

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

True, yet again, this is signified but not procured in the waters of baptism.
I accept scripture as written:
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21


"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16



"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?...
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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In the very Scripture you cited. Those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Those who are not Christ's have not.

Galatians 5
[24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
But it does NOT say that we are saved by doing these things......
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
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I accept scripture as written:
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21


"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16



"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?...
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6
"I accept scripture as written:"

Amen! Enough said.

There are countless ways a man can interpret scripture but it is best to have faith in the prima facie of the Word of God and not the understandings of men.

Proverbs 14:12 "There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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how do we interpret James 2:24 🤔 ?
These works are the evidence of faith not the proof of saving faith.

James in NOT teaching works MUST follow saving faith otherwise the person is not saved, but rather works SHOULD follow faith.

24 You see that a person is considered righteous by what they do and not by faith alone.

And because works SHOULD follow faith it is very important to show one's faith through works because faith cannot be visible otherwise.
Justified in the Book of James is the justification before men, that is having the works to give evidence to the faith.

Some like to teach "dead faith" is a non existent faith. This is wrong.

If it is dead it was once alive.

It is illogical and makes no contextual sense to state a dead faith is "mere faith" since James is writing to saved people (Jews)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I accept scripture as written:
"Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:" 1 Peter 3:20-21

"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord." Acts 22:16

"Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?...
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin." Rom 6:3-6
You only accept scripture that "on the surface" appears to support your biased church doctrine while ignoring the rest of scripture that does not accommodate your false gospel. These passages of scripture taken in context have already been explained to you numerous times but you continue to fail to properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching your conclusion on doctrine, which remains your achilees heel. Your eisegesis just doesn't hold water as you continue to confuse the picture (water baptism) with the reality (Spirit baptism).
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
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I accept scripture as written:
Since your pet verses on baptism "on the surface" merely "appear" to teach what you claim, should we also interpret John 6:54-56 to mean that we literally eat Jesus' flesh and literally drink His blood when we partake of the Lord's supper? Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. So the correct interpretation results in cannibalism? Roman Catholics seem to believe so which has resulted in the false doctrine of transubstantiation.

Yet, Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35 - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life.

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as the result is the same, eternal life.

*HERMENEUTICS*

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
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Since your pet verses on baptism "on the surface" merely "appear" to teach what you claim, should we also interpret John 6:54-56 to mean that we literally eat Jesus' flesh and literally drink His blood when we partake of the Lord's supper? Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed, and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me, and I in him. So the correct interpretation results in cannibalism? Roman Catholics seem to believe so which has resulted in the false doctrine of transubstantiation.

Yet, Jesus is the Bread of Life and just as bread nourishes our physical bodies, Jesus gives and sustains eternal life to all believers. John 6:35 - "I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." Jesus used figurative language to emphasize these spiritual truths. John 6:63 - "It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life."

By faith we partake of Christ, and the benefits of His bodily sacrifice on the cross and shed blood, receiving eternal life.

John 6:40 - Everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
John 6:54 - Whoever eats My flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:47 - Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life.
John 6:58 - He who eats this bread will live forever.

"He who believes" in Christ is equivalent to "he who eats this bread and drinks My blood" as the result is the same, eternal life.

*HERMENEUTICS*

No scripture is to be interpreted in isolation from the totality of scripture. Practically speaking, a singular and obscure verse is to be subservient to multiple and clear verses, and not vice versa.

Bread represents the "staff of life." Sustenance. That which essential to sustain life. Just as bread or sustenance is necessary to maintain physical life, Jesus is all the sustenance necessary for spiritual life.

The source of physical life is blood -- "life is in the blood." As with the bread, just as blood is the empowering or source of life physically, Jesus is all the source of spiritual life necessary.
At least Wansvic has "pet verses". You on the other hand have none.

I am assuming that you are a follower of faith alone regeneration theology?

If you are, you are following a theology that has no example.

Even cults have an example that they will point to as prima facie of their false theology.

Where is your "pet verse" that "on the surface" appears to teach salvation by faith alone.

You have none, for if you did you would have presented it by now.

Your attempts to present generalities as a means to negate the prima facie of more definitive verses goes against core tenets of hermeneutics.

Example: You are implying the qualifier "alone" into your understanding of the verses. You are now changing the meaning of the verses into something that the writer may or may not have meant. (Rule of Inference without Cause)

Example: All Bibles translate Acts 2:38 as either "for", "in order to" or "so that you will" receive the remission of sins and receive the Gift of the Holy Spirit. This goes for ancient and modern translations, as well as Bibles in other languages. For you or anyone else to imply that the true meaning is "because of" is a sign of a church bias. (Rule of Precedent)

John 3:16 and Acts 2:38 can both be taken at "face value"

The Bible is already in harmony. It does not need you to fix it
 

Ted01

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May 14, 2022
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You keep bringing up this term as though it's the only correct way to understand writings of another. While I tend to agree that it's a good rule-of-thumb, there's a lot of Scripture that just can't be handled that way, and I think that you know that. Otherwise, we'd be gouging out our eyes and cutting off body parts. (I'm sure that you know which verses I mean). Because that's the prima facie meaning of those verses... at first glance.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
470
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You keep bringing up this term as though it's the only correct way to understand writings of another. While I tend to agree that it's a good rule-of-thumb, there's a lot of Scripture that just can't be handled that way, and I think that you know that. Otherwise, we'd be gouging out our eyes and cutting off body parts. (I'm sure that you know which verses I mean). Because that's the prima facie meaning of those verses... at first glance.
Agreed, but that is tacit.

Anything else about what I wrote?
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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Agreed, but that is tacit.

Anything else about what I wrote?
Yeah, it was all false. Dan cites many verses in his posts, and they do speak to being saved by faith.

Whether they are so-called "pet verses" (your term) or not has little to do with the truth of Scripture.