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throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#1
In conversations with Calvinists it becomes readily apparent that they think if you don't believe in Calvinism its because of ' emotional reasons ' . That you don't ' like it ' because it s ' unfair ' . They think that your in the place they were in ,before they believed it . That they have ' over come the ' hard truths ' that they wrestled with prior to accepting it .

'Predestination ,' as they see it is ' Augustines view of it . They think you don't believe in predestination. This is compounded by some Christians who actually fall into that thinking. That they will actually say " oh I don't believe in predestination " This furthers the problem.
We shouldn't reject something because it seems ' unfair ' . I'm not negating that somethings we can intuitively recognise somethings as wrong on face value. Which i believe calvinism is . Rather I believe Calvinism is false not because its ' difficult to swallow ' , no its because of SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY.
Now if you consider your self an Arminian , unfortunately you are ripe to become a Calvinist. The reason for this is because your essentially following a similar paradigm. You will have the same building blocks to 1) sympathise with its core doctrines and 2) Be influenced by it .

Scriptural Authority should be the final authority. Seldom does this happen. Many are confused by Calvinism and don't see the problem with it . Others see the problem with but don't know how to address it .
I used to consider my self a non calvinist but I was amazed to realise how much I was influenced by it and had been unwittingly confused by .
I believe that this is the cause for most of the confusion within christianity. How much the church is unwittingly influenced by it and has little to no discernment to solve the issue
let's discuss.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#2
One of the biggest plagues in what professes to be modern-day Christianity is that of Calvinism.

In a nutshell (which is where the nutjob Calvin belonged), Calvinism alleges that God predestinated all of us to either heaven or hell before we were even born. In other words, our free will choices in this life allegedly have nothing to do with our eternal destinies.

This is complete and utter heresy.

Whenever this topic arises, there are basically five different words that are going to appear in scripture in relation to the same, and they are as follows:

1. Predestinated or predestinate.
2. Adoption.
3. Earnest.
4. Foreknowledge, foreknow, or foreknew.
5. Election or elect.

It's imperative that we apply the proper Biblical definitions to each of these terms or else we're going to come away with wrong doctrine…something of which many churches are presently full.

In this post, I'm going to address every instance in the Bible where the words predestinated/predestinate and adoption appear, and I'll touch upon the word earnest as well. I'll CAPITALIZE these words for emphasis each time that they appear within a text as I show what they actually mean in context or as I show exactly what Christians have actually been predestinated unto.

The words predestinated and predestinate appear only four times in the Bible in Ephesians 1:5, 11, Romans 8:29 and 30.

The word adoption appears only five times in the Bible in Romans 8:15, 23, 9:4, Galatians 4:5, and Ephesians 1:5.

Seeing how there is only one place in scripture where the two words appear in the same verse (Eph. 1:5), I'll start there in order to hopefully show you exactly what predestination is and isn't.

We read:

"Having PREDESTINATED us unto the ADOPTION of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will," (Ephesians 1:5)

For starters, the "us" who have been "predestinated" are "the saints" or "the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1). In context, this passage says absolutely nothing about anything that unbelievers were allegedly "predestinated" unto. Furthermore, this passage tells us exactly what "the saints" or "the faithful in Christ Jesus" have been "predestinated" unto, and that is "the adoption of children".

The underlying Greek word, huiothesia, which is here translated as "adoption", does not carry the same meaning that our modern-day English word adoption carries. Instead, this underlying Greek word literally means to place as an adult son.

http://christianityinview.com/biblestudies/adoption.html

“The word adoption in the New Testament is translated from the Greek word huiothesia, which means ‘the placing of an adult son’ and refers to the formal act of recognizing the maturity of an adult son. The word is found in five New Testament passages: Rom. 8:15,23: 9:4; Gal. 4:5; Eph. 1:5.

The new-born baby is brephos, as in ‘the babe (brephos), lying in a manger...’. The word sometimes refers to the fetus, as in ‘...the babe (brephos) leapt in her womb...’. The believer is also called teknon, a child which is growing up but which is still under parental care. Hence John 1:12, ‘...to them gave he power to become the sons (teknon) of God.’ But the believer is also in union with Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is called huios, ‘an adult son’. So, in union with him, we are said to be adult sons also, although we may be brephos or teknon by experience.

To the people living in the predominantly Greek and Roman culture of the 1st Century A.D., the word huiothesia would bring to mind the ceremony of toga virilis, in which a 14-year-old boy went through an investiture ceremony with the adult male members of his family. At this ceremony, speeches of challenge to the youth would be made, and offerings would be made to the gods. Then, the boy would stand in the center of the group and take off the child's garment that he wore. A new adult man's robe, or toga, would be placed on him. This was the toga virilis, the ‘robe of a man’.

At this time, the 14-year-old was given adult privileges and responsibilities. He could conduct business in his own name, could buy and sell property, could marry, could vote in the Assembly, and in many other ways could carry on as an adult citizen. Of course, he was not mature enough or wise enough to exercise all of the privileges he had; and he was not experienced enough to live up to all of the responsibilities. But the seriousness of his position as a citizen was impressed on him; and if he was intelligent and hardworking, he would grow up to be an adult having integrity and character.”

As we just read, the word adoption, as it is used in the Bible, refers to a Roman coming-of-age ceremony which would be the equivalent of a Jewish Bar Mitzvah. Paul perfectly explained this coming-of-age ceremony in Galatians chapter 4.

We read:

"Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a servant, though he is lord of all; But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father. Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the ADOPTION of sons. And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Wherefore you are no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ." (Galatians 4:1-7)

In Roman culture, if I had a young son who would eventually be my heir, then he would have been "under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father" or until the time of his "adoption" or placing as an adult son arrived. When my son would have reached a certain age, there would have been a coming-of-age ceremony or an "adoption" which would have signified that my son was passing from the classification of a child who "differs nothing from a servant" unto the classification of an adult son.

During this ceremony, my son would have been donned with what was called a toga virilis, and the donning of this toga virilis would have conferred important rights and privileges to my son who would have then been deemed as an adult in society.

https://www.collinsdictionary.com/us/dictionary/english/toga-virilis

Paul used this Roman custom to describe the purpose of "the law" in the life of a believer. In other words, "the law" was our "tutor and governor until the time appointed of the father" or until the time came that we were redeemed from "differing nothing from servants" by the blood of Christ and received "the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father". Paul referred to this same "Spirit" as "the Spirit of adoption" in his epistle to the Romans.

We read:

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For you have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but you have received the Spirit of ADOPTION, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. For the EARNEST expectation of the creature waits for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and travails in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the ADOPTION, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man sees, why does he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it." (Romans 8:14-25)

"The spirit of bondage again to fear" pertains directly to "the law" which Paul likened to the bondmaid/bondwoman, Hagar, in Galatians 4:21-31 and which "genders to bondage" (Gal. 4:24). In other words, "the law" kept people in both "bondage" and "fear" in that it rightly identified what sin was, but offered no deliverance from the same apart from saving faith in Christ.

With such being the case, those who were under "the law" were not only in "bondage" to sin, but they also had a "fearful" expectation of coming judgment. In stark contrast to these, we who have placed saving faith in Christ have received a totally different "Spirit"…"the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father".

Here's what's interesting, though, and this truth cannot be missed:

Neither our "adoption" nor our "redemption" are yet complete.

No, as Paul himself said, Christians have merely received "the first-fruits of the Spirit", or what he elsewhere called "the earnest of the Spirit" (II Cor. 1:22, 5:5, Eph. 1:13-14), and we're still "waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body". Yes, Paul said that this "adoption" or "redemption of our body" is what Christians "hope for" and "with patience wait for it".

(continued in my next post)
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#3
(continued from my previous post)

Furthermore, Paul's use of the word "earnest" in this portion of scripture refers to a real estate term or to earnest money.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/e/earnest-money.asp

In real estate, when somebody plans on purchasing a building, they will give a deposit or a down payment of earnest money, which signifies that they earnestly intend to complete the transaction at a future time. Where Christians are concerned, neither our "adoption" nor our "redemption" will be complete until the time comes that we have received glorified bodies. Until that day arrives, God has given us "the earnest of the Spirit" to signify that he plans to complete his purchase at that time.

To this end, Paul wrote:

"In whom you also trusted, after that you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that you believed, you were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the EARNEST of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory." (Ephesians 1:13-14)

"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed unto the day of redemption." (Ephesians 4:30)

Again, as Christians, we've presently only received "that holy Spirit OF PROMISE, which is THE EARNEST OF OUR INHERITANCE UNTIL THE REDEMPTION OF THE PURCHASED POSSESSION" or until the yet coming "day of redemption". This yet coming "day of redemption" is the same exact "adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" that Paul wrote of in Romans 8:23.

In other words, as a Roman son wasn't fully deemed to be "an heir" until the time came that he donned his toga virilis, we, as Christians, won't receive our inheritance until the time comes that we don our glorified bodies at the second coming of Christ.
If you understand what the word "adoption" actually meant in the time of Paul and the significance of the donning of the toga virilis, then you'll also understand why Paul used terminology in line with putting on new clothing in relation to our glorified bodies.

For example, we read:

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So, when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. O death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your victory?" (I Corinthians 15:51-55)

Notice the changing of the garment or when "this corruptible must put on incorruption and this mortal must put on immortality". Again, this takes place at the second coming of Christ when we will receive "the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body" (Rom. 8:23). This changing of the garment becomes even more evident in Paul's second epistle to the Corinthians.

We read:

"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For in this we groan, EARNESTLY desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that has wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also has given unto us the EARNEST of the Spirit." (II Corinthians 5:1-5)

Here, we not only read of how Christians are "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven…that mortality might be swallowed up of life", but we also read of how God has "given unto us the earnest of the Spirit" in relation to the same.

Again, Paul's use of the word earnest pertains directly to earnest money that was given in real estate purchases, and it's no wonder that it appears here in relation to our "earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our HOUSE which is from heaven".

In the same manner in which a Roman adoption wasn't completed until a new toga virilis was donned, our own adoptions will not be completed until the time comes that we receive glorified bodies at the second coming of Christ.

THIS is what Christians have truly been "predestinated unto", and, again, it will be fulfilled at the second coming of Christ.

To this end, Paul wrote:

"Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he has purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being PREDESTINATED according to the purpose of him who works all things after the counsel of his own will:" (Ephesians 1:9-11)

Again, Christians have been "predestinated…unto the adoption of children" (Eph. 1:5), and such will be completed in "the fulness of times" or when God "gathers together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth".

In other words, as Paul wrote elsewhere (I Thess. 4:13-17), at Christ's second coming, the dead in Christ (those "which are in heaven") will rise first to receive their glorified bodies, and then the Christians who are yet alive (those "which are on earth") will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air in order to receive their glorified bodies as well.

Well, now that you hopefully understand what Christians have truly been "predestinated unto", let's look at the last two places in scripture where the word "predestinate" occurs:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did PREDESTINATE to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did PREDESTINATE, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." (Romans 8:29-30)

Please notice that foreknowledge PRECEDES predestination in scripture. In other words, seeing how God truly knows what is going to happen in advance, he has predestinated Christians "to be conformed to the image of his Son", and, again, this is speaking in relation to Christians receiving the same type of glorified bodies that Jesus has at his second coming.

(continued in my next post)
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#4
(continue from my previous post)

I have to add the following in order to totally destroy the Calvinistic mis-definition of the word "predestination" in scripture.

From this same epistle of Paul to the Romans, we read:

"For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" (Romans 11:16-24)

Although Christians truly have been "predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ" (Eph. 1:5), such is only guaranteed "IF we continue in his goodness: otherwise we also shall be cut off". In other words, our FREE WILL is directly related to us receiving that which we've been "predestinated unto", and if we WILLFULLY depart from Christ, then we shall be cut off.

Furthermore, if the unbelieving Jews who are presently "broken off" come to the place where they "abide not still in unbelief", then they shall reap the full rewards of "predestination" themselves. In fact, Paul addressed this earlier in this same epistle to the Romans.

We read:

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the ADOPTION, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" (Romans 9:1-4)

Paul wished himself "accursed from Christ" for his "kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption". In other words, if these unbelieving Jews whom Paul had "great heaviness and continual sorrow" in his heart for became believers in Christ, then "the adoption" would pertain to them as well as it does to believing Gentiles.

My point?

That the Calvinistic mis-definition of "predestination" is utter heresy.

In other words, whereas they claim that God allegedly "predestinated" certain people to eternal life and others to eternal damnation apart from their own FREE WILL CHOICES, the Bible teaches something completely different.

Not only does predestination actually pertain to Christians receiving glorified bodies at Christ's second coming, but even those who presently are "predestinated unto" the same can lose their inheritance if they turn away from the Lord. I know that people don't like to hear this, but it's Biblical truth just the same.

Again, properly understanding Paul's use of the word "earnest" in scripture helps to make this truth plain. Earnest money can be returned to the purchaser, and the purchase can be cancelled out or voided. In fact, I have personally received back earnest money twice within just the last 8 years or so.

Well, that's everywhere in scripture where the words predestinate/predestinated and adoption appear, and Biblical predestination has absolutely nothing to do with God allegedly predetermining who goes to either heaven or hell.

Some things for you to hopefully prayerfully and carefully ponder before the Lord.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#5
(continue from my previous post)

I have to add the following in order to totally destroy the Calvinistic mis-definition of the word "predestination" in scripture.

From this same epistle of Paul to the Romans, we read:

"For if the first fruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches. And if some of the branches be broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted in among them, and with them partake of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if you boast, you bear not the root, but the root you. You will say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Be not high-minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not you. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in his goodness: otherwise you also shall be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again. For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?" (Romans 11:16-24)

Although Christians truly have been "predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ" (Eph. 1:5), such is only guaranteed "IF we continue in his goodness: otherwise we also shall be cut off". In other words, our FREE WILL is directly related to us receiving that which we've been "predestinated unto", and if we WILLFULLY depart from Christ, then we shall be cut off.

Furthermore, if the unbelieving Jews who are presently "broken off" come to the place where they "abide not still in unbelief", then they shall reap the full rewards of "predestination" themselves. In fact, Paul addressed this earlier in this same epistle to the Romans.

We read:

"I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost, That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart. For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertains the ADOPTION, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;" (Romans 9:1-4)

Paul wished himself "accursed from Christ" for his "kinsmen according to the flesh: who are Israelites; to whom pertains the adoption". In other words, if these unbelieving Jews whom Paul had "great heaviness and continual sorrow" in his heart for became believers in Christ, then "the adoption" would pertain to them as well as it does to believing Gentiles.

My point?

That the Calvinistic mis-definition of "predestination" is utter heresy.

In other words, whereas they claim that God allegedly "predestinated" certain people to eternal life and others to eternal damnation apart from their own FREE WILL CHOICES, the Bible teaches something completely different.

Not only does predestination actually pertain to Christians receiving glorified bodies at Christ's second coming, but even those who presently are "predestinated unto" the same can lose their inheritance if they turn away from the Lord. I know that people don't like to hear this, but it's Biblical truth just the same.

Again, properly understanding Paul's use of the word "earnest" in scripture helps to make this truth plain. Earnest money can be returned to the purchaser, and the purchase can be cancelled out or voided. In fact, I have personally received back earnest money twice within just the last 8 years or so.

Well, that's everywhere in scripture where the words predestinate/predestinated and adoption appear, and Biblical predestination has absolutely nothing to do with God allegedly predetermining who goes to either heaven or hell.

Some things for you to hopefully prayerfully and carefully ponder before the Lord.
Wow we actually agree on something. Yes we are predestined to Adoption after we believe . I would only differ on being able to lose our sealing of the Holy Spirit . As I believe this is unto the day of redemption. So with being predestinated to it ,nothing can undo it . Not even ourselves. Eph 1.13 . Eph 4.30 . I believe we are saved from the wrath to come being ' in Christ '. And we can't now get out of Christ. Praise God.
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#6
Wow we actually agree on something. Yes we are predestined to Adoption after we believe.
Proof that miracles didn't cease when the Apostles died...lol.

throughfaith said:
I would only differ on being able to lose our sealing of the Holy Spirit . As I believe this is unto the day of redemption. So with being predestinated to it ,nothing can undo it . Not even ourselves. Eph 1.13 . Eph 4.30 . I believe we are saved from the wrath to come being Justified by his blood.
"Predestinated" means just that:

That a "destination" has "previously" been determined, and, at first glance, that might seem to support your belief.

Although I could easily further prove my own assertion from scripture, for now, I'll just give you the following analogy to hopefully illustrate what I am saying.

I live in Pennsylvania in the USA.

If I wanted to take a bus to New York City, then I would check with local bus companies to see if any of them have "predestinated" a trip to New York City.

If one did, and if I purchased a ticket and boarded the bus which had been "predestinated" to arrive in New York City, then I would only arrive at this "predestinated" place along with the bus IF I STAYED ON THE BUS FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE TRIP.

In other words, IF I DEPARTED FROM THE PREDESTINATED BUS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, then I would never arrive at the "predestinated" destination.

It's basically that simple.

If we remain in Christ, then we're "predestinated" to receive the same types of glorified bodies that he has at his second coming.

If we do not remain in Christ, then we'll never receive the same.

Again, it is imperative that we understand what words actually mean in the Bible.

"Earnest" refers to "earnest money" which can be returned to the purchaser.

As I previously mentioned, I have personally had "earnest money" returned to me twice.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#7
Proof that miracles didn't cease when the Apostles died...lol.

"Predestinated" means just that:

That a "destination" has "previously" been determined, and, at first glance, that might seem to support your belief.

Although I could easily further prove my own assertion from scripture, for now, I'll just give you the following analogy to hopefully illustrate what I am saying.

I live in Pennsylvania in the USA.

If I wanted to take a bus to New York City, then I would check with local bus companies to see if any of them have "predestinated" a trip to New York City.

If one did, and if I purchased a ticket and boarded the bus which had been "predestinated" to arrive in New York City, then I would only arrive at this "predestinated" place along with the bus IF I STAYED ON THE BUS FOR THE ENTIRETY OF THE TRIP.

In other words, IF I DEPARTED FROM THE PREDESTINATED BUS SOMEWHERE ALONG THE LINE, then I would never arrive at the "predestinated" destination.

It's basically that simple.

If we remain in Christ, then we're "predestinated" to receive the same types of glorified bodies that he has at his second coming.

If we do not remain in Christ, then we'll never receive the same.

Again, it is imperative that we understand what words actually mean in the Bible.

"Earnest" refers to "earnest money" which can be returned to the purchaser.

As I previously mentioned, I have personally had "earnest money" returned to me twice.
Yes that may be the case if ' getting in Christ ' was like boarding a bus . Of course the bus destination is set by man and is subject to the reliability of the vehicle , weather and road traffic conditions . Its God himself who predestines believers. Its God himself who places the believer into Christ . Now we then read the promises for the future of the believer are not conditional. The spiritual aspect of salvation is past tense . All that remains ( essentially) is the redemption of the BODY .The Adoption . Rom 8.23 .
 
L

Live4Him

Guest
#8
Yes that may be the case if ' getting in Christ ' was like boarding a bus . Of course the bus destination is set by man and is subject to the reliability of the vehicle , weather and road traffic conditions . Its God himself who predestines believers. Its God himself who places the believer into Christ . Now we then read the promises for the future of the believer are not conditional. The spiritual aspect of salvation is past tense . All that remains ( essentially) is the redemption of the BODY .The Adoption . Rom 8.23 .
Rather than get into a long scriptural dispute with you on this particular point at the moment, I'll just give others here time to read what's already been said in relation to what Christians have actually been predestinated unto. That's a big enough can of worms already for many who have been duped into believing Calvin's teachings.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#9
Rather than get into a long scriptural dispute with you on this particular point at the moment, I'll just give others here time to read what's already been said in relation to what Christians have actually been predestinated unto. That's a big enough can of worms already for many who have been duped into believing Calvin's teachings.
We agree on Predestination and Adoption . This confuses a lot of folks .
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#10
Rather than get into a long scriptural dispute with you on this particular point at the moment, I'll just give others here time to read what's already been said in relation to what Christians have actually been predestinated unto. That's a big enough can of worms already for many who have been duped into believing Calvin's teachings.
That's wise.
 

throughfaith

Well-known member
Aug 4, 2020
10,467
1,593
113
#12
Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)
Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#13
The underlying Greek word, huiothesia, which is here translated as "adoption", does not carry the same meaning that our modern-day English word adoption carries. Instead, this underlying Greek word literally means to place as an adult son.
Agreed! (y)


"son-placement"



[not "adoption" as we know it in today's culture]
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#14
I would only differ on being able to lose our sealing of the Holy Spirit . As I believe this is unto the day of redemption. So with being predestinated to it ,nothing can undo it . Not even ourselves. Eph 1.13 . Eph 4.30 . I believe we are saved from the wrath to come being ' in Christ '. And we can't now get out of Christ. Praise God.
Agreed! (y)
 

TheDivineWatermark

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#15
Rather I believe Calvinism is false not because its ' difficult to swallow ' , no its because of SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY.
Agreed. (y)

Now if you consider your self an Arminian , unfortunately you are ripe to become a Calvinist. The reason for this is because your essentially following a similar paradigm. You will have the same building blocks to 1) sympathise with its core doctrines and 2) Be influenced by it .
Agreed. (y)
 
Mar 4, 2020
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#16
One of my biggest concerns with false doctrines and cults is if that they are overtly false in every sector in an obvious way, but rather there are elements of truth that disarm the undiscerning.

If people aren't prayerfully reading the Bible it's easy to be get baited into any sort of false doctrine and impossible to discern the truth from the lies without a proper foundation.

The Word of God of is our sWord. Who wants to sharpen sharpen some iron?
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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#17
Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
 

throughfaith

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Aug 4, 2020
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#18
Acts 13:48

And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.
Yes and what are you doing with the verse ? Your reading it like this " And as many who were unconditionally elected by God to be saved , before the foundation of the world, believed " . Your imposing Augustines thinking onto the text ( man's wisdom) .
Notice it doesn't Say , God ordained them ?
Kjv
48¶And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Now read the context. Especially two verses before it .
46Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
This verse refutes Augustine.
 

phil36

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Feb 12, 2009
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#19
Rather I believe Calvinism is false not because its ' difficult to swallow ' , no its because of SCRIPTURAL AUTHORITY.

Now if you consider your self an Arminian , unfortunately you are ripe to become a Calvinist. The reason for this is because your essentially following a similar paradigm. You will have the same building blocks to 1) sympathise with its core doctrines and 2) Be influenced by it .


I'd be interested to know what the ''same'' building blocks are you are referring to? (since basically Calvinist and Arminian covers nearly everyone on CC (soteriologically speaking)
 
B

Blackpowderduelist

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#20
There is another option that is t Arian or Calvinist.