Septuagint vs masoretic text about Christ

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trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
761
113
#1
NT:
"Therefore coming into the world, He says: “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, but a body You have prepared me." (Heb 10:5)

LXX:
"a body you have prepared for me" (Psalm 39:6)

MT:
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened" (Psalm 40:6, KJV, NIV etc.)

-----------------------

NT:
"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son" (Mt 1:23)

LXX:
"behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son" (Is 7:14)

MT:
"behold, the young woman is with child" (Is 7:14, Complete Jewish Bible; no Christian Bible dares to follow the MT text here)


-----------------------

NT:
"And again, when He brings the Firstborn into the world, He says: “And let all God’s angels worship Him" (Heb 1:6)

LXX:
"Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him;"
(Dt 32:43)

MT:
"Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people."
(Dt 32:43, KJV, NIV etc, the verse is totally different)

-----------------------

NT:
Christ's hands and feet were pierced.

LXX:
"For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet. " (Psalm 21:16)

MT:
"Dogs are all around me, a pack of villains closes in on me like a lion [at] my hands and feet."
(Psalm 22:16, Complete Jewish Bible, almost no Christian Bible dared to follow the MT text here)

-----------------------

NT:
"And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Mt 12:21)

LXX:
"He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Is 42:4)

MT:
"He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."
(Is 42:4, KJV, NIV etc.)
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
910
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#2
This should prove that the septuagint is to be considered correct over the MT! Because the apostles used it!
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
4,524
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#3
This should prove that the septuagint is to be considered correct over the MT! Because the apostles used it!
The DSS also sync better with the LXX and they are our oldest source text
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
107
39
28
#4
NT:
"Therefore coming into the world, He says: “Sacrifice and offering You have not desired, but a body You have prepared me." (Heb 10:5)

LXX:
"a body you have prepared for me" (Psalm 39:6)

MT:
"Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened" (Psalm 40:6, KJV, NIV etc.)

-----------------------

NT:
"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son" (Mt 1:23)

LXX:
"behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son" (Is 7:14)

MT:
"behold, the young woman is with child" (Is 7:14, Complete Jewish Bible; no Christian Bible dares to follow the MT text here)


-----------------------

NT:
"And again, when He brings the Firstborn into the world, He says: “And let all God’s angels worship Him" (Heb 1:6)

LXX:
"Rejoice, ye heavens, with him, and let all the angels of God worship him; rejoice ye Gentiles, with his people, and let all the sons of God strengthen themselves in him;"
(Dt 32:43)

MT:
"Rejoice, O ye nations, with his people: for he will avenge the blood of his servants, and will render vengeance to his adversaries, and will be merciful unto his land, and to his people."
(Dt 32:43, KJV, NIV etc, the verse is totally different)

-----------------------

NT:
Christ's hands and feet were pierced.

LXX:
"For many dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked doers has beset me round: they pierced my hands and my feet. " (Psalm 21:16)

MT:
"Dogs are all around me, a pack of villains closes in on me like a lion [at] my hands and feet."
(Psalm 22:16, Complete Jewish Bible, almost no Christian Bible dared to follow the MT text here)

-----------------------

NT:
"And in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Mt 12:21)

LXX:
"He shall shine out, and shall not be discouraged, until he have set judgement on the earth: and in his name shall the Gentiles trust." (Is 42:4)

MT:
"He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law."
(Is 42:4, KJV, NIV etc.)
I think that many times the God-breathed New Testament revelation isn't attempting to "quote" the OT.
Is there any conclusive evidence that a septuagint even existed prior to the completion of the New Testament?
Isn't there only a B.C. letter which actually describes LXXII instead of LXX?
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
761
113
#5
I think that many times the God-breathed New Testament revelation isn't attempting to "quote" the OT.
This is the most frequent answer from people having strange OT version, not corresponding with the NT quotations - "its not a quotation".
Well, what else can they say, if they do not want to learn/use something else...

Is there any conclusive evidence that a septuagint even existed prior to the completion of the New Testament?
Isn't there only a B.C. letter which actually describes LXXII instead of LXX?
Not sure what you mean by "conclusive evidence". Is there a conclusive evidence for anything before 0 AD? Or that the world did not begin yesterday and all the history was just made up?

If you wish to believe that Christians fabricated the LXX after the NT and with evil intentions just made the OT text to correspond with the NT, then its your decision...

But I am not sure why do you not apply the same standard to the Masoretic text.
 

rlm68

Active member
Jul 23, 2018
486
116
43
#6
JUST AN OPINION HERE:

NT:
"Behold, the virgin will hold in womb, and will bring forth a son" (Mt 1:23)

LXX:
"behold, a virgin shall conceive in the womb, and shall bring forth a son" (Is 7:14)

MT:
"behold, the young woman is with child" (Is 7:14, Complete Jewish Bible; no Christian Bible dares to follow the MT text here)


The word used to describe the birth mother of Christ has a few different meanings from virgin to young woman, or to a woman just new to marriage.

The reason I believe the VIRGIN word choice is actually incorrect, is because Constantine as a pagan follower worshiped Apollo. (We know Apollo from Revelation also as Abaddon which both are indicated as the king demon of the bottomless pit that will be unleashed during the Tribulation)...but, Apollo is claimed to have been born of a virgin. And many believe scripture was changed to virgin for Christ because Constantine aligned Christ with Apollo.

I believe the last example should be the correct interpretation, myself...

MT:
"behold, the young woman is with child" (Is 7:14, Complete Jewish Bible; no Christian Bible dares to follow the MT text here)
...
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,644
1,043
113
#7
LXX: "a body you have prepared for me" (Psalm 39:6)
Your reference is incorrect. Here is what Ps 39:6 states: Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.

MT: "Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened" (Psalm 40:6, KJV, NIV etc.)
Since the KJV is based on the Masoretic text and the NIV is based on the critical text, and they both say the same thing (as does every English translation) then we must concluded that that is exactly what is found in Scripture.
New International Version
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire-- but my ears you have opened -- burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.
New Living Translation
You take no delight in sacrifices or offerings. Now that you have made me listen, I finally understand--you don't require burnt offerings or sin offerings.
English Standard Version
In sacrifice and offering you have not delighted, but you have given me an open ear. Burnt offering and sin offering you have not required.
New American Standard Bible
Sacrifice and meal offering You have not desired; My ears You have opened; Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.
King James Bible
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
You do not delight in sacrifice and offering; You open my ears to listen. You do not ask for a whole burnt offering or a sin offering.
International Standard Version
You take no delight in sacrifices and offerings— you have prepared my ears to listen— you require no burnt offerings or sacrifices for sin.
NET Bible
Receiving sacrifices and offerings are not your primary concern. You make that quite clear to me! You do not ask for burnt sacrifices and sin offerings.
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
With sacrifices and with offerings you have not been pleased, but you have pierced the ears for me; burnt peace offerings for sin you have not requested.
GOD'S WORD® Translation
You were not pleased with sacrifices and offerings. You have dug out two ears for me. You did not ask for burnt offerings or sacrifices for sin.
Jubilee Bible 2000
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened; burnt offering and sin offering thou hast not required.
King James 2000 Bible
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required.
American King James Version
Sacrifice and offering you did not desire; my ears have you opened: burnt offering and sin offering have you not required.
American Standard Version
Sacrifice and offering thou hast no delight in; Mine ears hast thou opened: Burnt-offering and sin-offering hast thou not required.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Sacrifice and oblation thou didst not desire; but thou hast pierced ears for me. Burnt offering and sin offering thou didst not require :
Darby Bible Translation
Sacrifice and oblation thou didst not desire: ears hast thou prepared me. Burnt-offering and sin-offering hast thou not demanded;
English Revised Version
Sacrifice and offering thou hast no delight in; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required.
Webster's Bible Translation
Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; my ears hast thou opened: burnt-offering and sin-offering hast thou not required.
World English Bible
Sacrifice and offering you didn't desire. You have opened my ears. You have not required burnt offering and sin offering.
Young's Literal Translation
Sacrifice and present Thou hast not desired, Ears Thou hast prepared for me, Burnt and sin-offering Thou hast not asked.

YOU CONTINUE TO PUSH THE ERRONEOUS IDEA THAT THE CORRUPT SEPTUAGINT IS MORE ACCURATE THAN THE TRADITIONAL HEBREW MASORETIC TEXT. IT JUST WONT WASH.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
910
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#8
YOU CONTINUE TO PUSH THE ERRONEOUS IDEA THAT THE CORRUPT SEPTUAGINT IS MORE ACCURATE THAN THE TRADITIONAL HEBREW MASORETIC TEXT. IT JUST WONT WASH.
If the septuagint was corrupt, why did the apostles quote it?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
6,644
1,043
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#9
If the septuagint was corrupt, why did the apostles quote it?
Because their quotations are in Greek, and although they are directly from the Hebrew Tanakh, they frequently match the Greek Septuagint's translations.

But there is a lot more to it than those translations. For an overview of the corruption of the Septuagint, see The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah by Alfred Edersheim.

"Septuagint Errors and Question of its Inspiration

In 1886, Alfred Edersheim wrote The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah. This was a highly scholarly work by a devout Christian gentleman.

He explained the background on the translation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek in what we know as the Septuagint Bible. He claims that all we reliably know about it origin is that it was commissioned under the reign of a particular Pharoah in Egypt around at least 247 BC. The contention that it was done by 6 translators for each of the 12 tribes, totaling 72, is contained in a spurious letter, Edersheim thus implying that is not reliable truth. (The Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at 25.)

Next, Edersheim explains that the Septuagint was not divided as the original Hebrew Bible. The Original Testament is divided into the law, prophets and writings. Instead, the Septuagint was divided into 3 different compartments called the historical, prophetical, and poetical.

Next, the Septuagint also had a loose view of inspiration because it even admitted the Apocrypha into this Greek Bible. Edersheim then begins to identify quality issues, pointing out that that "it differs in almost innumerable instances from our own," i.e. , the Hebrew Bible. (The Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 27.)

In terms of the quality of the translation, Edersheim explains that it is clear that the Septuagint "is inferior" and sides in favor of a "slavish and false literalism," while "there is great Liberty, if not license, in handling the original text." And Edersheim adds that "gross mistakes occur along with happy renderings of very difficult passages....." (The Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 27.) These are often "unsatisfactory."

At times there are adaptations to Greek philosophical ideas. For example "even Siegfried is obliged to admit that the rendering in Genesis 1:2 bears undeniable marks of Grecian philosophical views." (Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 28 note 1.)

Then Edersheim continues, saying that "difficulties - or what seems such - are removed by the most bold method, and by free handling of the text," and does so "often very unsatisfactorily." (Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at 28.)

Edersheim adds that the Septuagint translation became regarded as inspired by the Jews living in the Greek speaking world. Then Edersheim comments:

"Only that we must not regard their views of inspiration - except as applying to Moses, and even there only partially - is identical with ours. To their minds inspiration differed quantitatively, not qualitatively, from what the rapt soul might at any time experience, so the heathen Philosopher may ultimately be regarding as at times inspired." (Life and Times of Jesus, supra, at page 29.)

Finally, on the issue of accuracy, Edersheim says that despite this high early regard, "later voices in the synagogue declared this version to have been as great a calamity to Israel as the making of the golden calf." (Life and Times of Messiah, supra, page 30.)"

https://www.jesuswordsonly.com/books/451-septuagint-errors-and-question-of-is-inspiration.html

The Masoretic Text (or the Traditional Hebrew Text) is the authoritative text of the Tanakh. The King James translators primarily used the Mikraot Gedoloth (the Great Scriptures) which was The Rabbinic Bible published by Daniel Bomberg in Venice (1516-17) and edited by Jacob ben Chayyim (Hayyim)
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
761
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#10
Your reference is incorrect. Here is what Ps 39:6 states: Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.
Its Psalm 39:6 in septuagint and 40:6 in masoretic text. Psalms are numbered differently.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
761
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#11
Your reference is incorrect. Here is what Ps 39:6 states: Surely every man walketh in a vain shew: surely they are disquieted in vain: he heapeth up riches, and knoweth not who shall gather them.


Since the KJV is based on the Masoretic text and the NIV is based on the critical text, and they both say the same thing (as does every English translation) then we must concluded that that is exactly what is found in Scripture.
Both NIV and KJV (and most of English translation) use masoretic text as the main source. Therefore there will be the masoretic errors in all of them.

Critical text is something else, you probably refered to Nestlé Aland vs Majority text, but its about the New Testament, not about the Old one.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
761
113
#12
The Masoretic Text (or the Traditional Hebrew Text) is the authoritative text of the Tanakh. The King James translators primarily used the Mikraot Gedoloth (the Great Scriptures) which was The Rabbinic Bible published by Daniel Bomberg in Venice (1516-17) and edited by Jacob ben Chayyim (Hayyim)
Rabbinical texts are not authoritative for the Church. Quite the opposite.
 

Hevosmies

Well-known member
Sep 8, 2018
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#13
I think another argument for septuagint would be that it predates Jesus' earthly ministry.
The Masoretic text was made after, by unbelievers, THEREFORE, the chances are there COULD HAVE BEEN [I said could, not has been] some tampering with key passages relating to the deity of Christ or His Messiahship.
 

Quantrill

Active member
Sep 20, 2018
814
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43
#14
I think another argument for septuagint would be that it predates Jesus' earthly ministry.
The Masoretic text was made after, by unbelievers, THEREFORE, the chances are there COULD HAVE BEEN [I said could, not has been] some tampering with key passages relating to the deity of Christ or His Messiahship.
What makes you believe the Septuagint predates Christ's earthly ministry?

What makes you believe the Masoretic text was made by unbelievers?

Quantrill
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
4,524
216
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#15
YOU CONTINUE TO PUSH THE ERRONEOUS IDEA THAT THE CORRUPT SEPTUAGINT IS MORE ACCURATE THAN THE TRADITIONAL HEBREW MASORETIC TEXT. IT JUST WONT WASH.
there is no agenda behind the LXX, it was a greek version of the Hebrew scriptures, nothing more. it was put together in Alexandria, an open minded city where people of all cultures and spiritual backgrounds were welcome and encouraged to share knowledge. why do you think they had the best library thats still talked about to this day.
now the MT does have some red flags when you look at the time line, Jesus was crucified, 30 yrs later James is killed, pharisee leaders come close to losing control of the city because of his death, 10 more years the revolt, temple destroyed, Essenes disappear, nazorenes disappear, and the pharisees . . .are right back in power and their first order of business, establish a new Hebrew canon that no body had a problem with up until that point? and we are to believe that this new sect of Jewish Christians had nothing to do with this.
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
4,524
216
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#16
What makes you believe the Septuagint predates Christ's earthly ministry?

What makes you believe the Masoretic text was made by unbelievers?

Quantrill
LXX is from 200 BC
MT process began 80AD council of Jamnia which was controlled by a pharisee majority.
 

Quantrill

Active member
Sep 20, 2018
814
245
43
#17
LXX is from 200 BC
MT process began 80AD council of Jamnia which was controlled by a pharisee majority.
I asked what makes you believe the Septuagint predates Christ's earthly ministry? Who says the Septuagint is from 200 B.C.?

I asked what makes you believe the Masoretic text was made by unbelievers? Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Quantrill
 

jaybird88

Senior Member
Jan 7, 2015
4,524
216
63
#18
I asked what makes you believe the Septuagint predates Christ's earthly ministry? Who says the Septuagint is from 200 B.C.?
thats wht the historical facts say

I asked what makes you believe the Masoretic text was made by unbelievers? Just because you say it doesn't make it so.

Quantrill
i dont know that it was, all i said it was influenced by pharisees.

the term "pharisee" is very much like "the Jews" its important to know which ones your talking about.
the pharisees school of thought was a good sect of Jews, Jesus said follow what they teach. the problem was that they were the majority and at the top they were lead by very corrupt people, these were the ones that conspired to kill Jesus, James and IMO Zechariah. they were closely connected to herod and rome.
 

trofimus

Senior Member
Aug 17, 2015
10,684
761
113
#19
What makes you believe the Septuagint predates Christ's earthly ministry?
a) What makes you believe that the masoretic text predates Christ's ministry?

b) And why, exactly, do you prefer the text not compatible with the New testament, never used in the church and being in a rabbinical tradition? From what reason?