The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mar 23, 2016
4,525
1,313
113
reneweddaybyday said:
You having to re-post what you have already posted means this thread is coming to a close??? :cool::cool::cool:
Yes i have posted it before.
I didn't ask if you had posted it before.

I asked:

Does your re-posting what you've already posted mean this thread now comes to a close??? :cool::cool::cool:



 
Mar 23, 2016
4,525
1,313
113
Now if He be the True Israel, and His Body the Church is One with Him, then they also be Israel, and brings to pass the salvation of His Body Israel
replacement theology :rolleyes:

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel.
...
The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost ... The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).




 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
replacement theology :rolleyes:

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel.
...
The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost ... The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).
Did you understand the post ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
I have overcome the World, Be of good cheer !

Jn 16:33

These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.

Now why should one be of good cheer for Christ's overcoming the world ; if they have no share in it ? Ah but the fact of the matter is this, that all for whom Christ died and rose again, partake in this overcoming, because He did it primarily as Their Head and Representative, so if it's His overcoming. it's His Body's also ! Everyone Christ died for will be given overcoming Faith, that also overcomes the world 1 Jn 5:4

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

Where does our faith come from here ? Why it is born of God !

You see Christ by the Gift of His Spirit is the Author and Finisher of Our Faith ! Our being everyone He died for ! This Faith that flows to us from Him by the communication of the Holy Spirit, hath overcome the World, and each person He died for will receive a New Birth of the Spirit because of His Resurrection from the Dead 1 Pet 1:3

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Now vain religionists who are proud, believe that the Faith that gives the victory over the world and overcomes it, is from their own freewill ability, and not born of God's Spirit, for they are boasters and proud, and take the crown from Christ, and arrogantly crown their own selves and freewill for such a great achievement !

But the overcoming Faith, that overcomes the world, Has Christ as it's Author and Finisher, and flows From Him the Head, to all His Members that He represented ! So they become overcomer's and victorious because He did in their behalf !
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,336
757
113
I didn't ask if you had posted it before.

I asked:

Does your re-posting what you've already posted mean this thread now comes to a close??? :cool::cool::cool:
He had to do just to stay and when you get tired of answering out-of-context claims, he wins. That is his game.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,525
1,313
113
He had to do just to stay and when you get tired of answering out-of-context claims, he wins. That is his game.
yep. gotta love that long-suffering fruit of the Spirit ... :)


Galatians 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is ... longsuffering [G3115] ...


3115 /makrothymía ("divinely-regulated patience") is used of God Himself (see 1 Pet 3:20; 2 Pet 3:15). Indeed, only the Lord produces 3115 /makrothymía ("true patience, longsuffering") in us and hence is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22).
HELPS Word-studies



 

Grandpa

Senior Member
Jun 24, 2011
10,854
2,745
113
replacement theology :rolleyes:

Replacement theology teaches that the church is the replacement for Israel and that the many promises made to Israel in the Bible are fulfilled in the Christian church, not in Israel. The prophecies in Scripture concerning the blessing and restoration of Israel to the Promised Land are spiritualized or allegorized into promises of God’s blessing for the church. Major problems exist with this view, such as the continuing existence of the Jewish people throughout the centuries and especially with the revival of the modern state of Israel.
...
The view that Israel and the church are different is clearly taught in the New Testament. Biblically speaking, the church is distinct from Israel, and the terms church and Israel are never to be confused or used interchangeably. We are taught from Scripture that the church is an entirely new creation that came into being on the day of Pentecost ... The church has no relationship to the curses and blessings for Israel. The covenants, promises, and warnings of the Mosaic Covenant were valid only for Israel. Israel has been temporarily set aside in God’s program during these past 2,000 years of dispersion (see Romans 11).
Romans 11:16-20
16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:


Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.



The Israel of God are all those who belong to Christ. Always has been.

Galatians 3:6-7
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.




This isn't spiritualized or allegorized. Its plain english telling you how it is.
 

Funkus

Active member
May 20, 2020
169
55
28
this boring stuff puts me off Jesus, anyone else feel the same? maybe these guys shouldn't get to post here any more if this is the best they can come up with to talk about. yawn. i'm so bored i could cry with literal boredom i don't care who has the biggest set of swinging balls
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
He hath destroyed the works of the devil !

1 Jn 3:8

He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

The Lord Jesus Christ through His Death ALONE, hath destroyed the works of the devil, for those He died for. This was foretold eon's ago here Gen 3:15

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head [destroy], and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Yes the bruising of the serpent's [satan, the devil] head is exactly what Christ did accomplish Heb 2:14

14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

Now death has been abolished in regards to everyone Christ died for, and who is believing, and this is brought to light by the Gospel 2 Tim 1:9-10

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Those who are believing the Gospel of God's Grace, is evidence that Christ abolished Death on their behalf, that He destroyed the work of the devil regarding them. Now one of the symptoms of or effects of spiritual death and the devil's power over one, is Unbelief of the Gospel, for Unbelief is work of the Devil, scripture most certainly declares that 2 Cor 4:3-4

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:141

4 In whom the god[Satan] of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The lost natural man just simply cannot believe the Gospel and why ? "the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not," this is one of the works of the devil ! So yes, unbelief of the Gospel of God's Sovereign Grace is not believed by all those that the work of the devil prevails against. See Also Matt 13:19 ! He by spiritual death blinds their minds in unbelief ! But how so to those whom Christ has died for, and consequently hath destroyed the works of the devil ? I must testify, that it is impossible for anyone Christ died for, should remain in unbelief ! They shall one Day Live by Faith after having the Gospel Reveal to them the Righteousness of God Rom 1:16-17. Folks for if that could happen, that one Christ died for lives their whole Life in unbelief of the Gospel, if that happens, then the work of the devil prevailed against one for whom Christ died, he prevailed over His Victorious Death that should have destroyed his works, yes if one soul that Christ died for, dies in unbelief or is found in Gospel Unbelief when He returns, like these will be 2 Thess 1:8, then Christ's Death did not destroy the works of the devil. But alas, it is a fact, all those who do die in unbelief, or are in unbelief when Christ Returns, then Christ did not die for them, simple as that !
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
3,336
757
113
The grace of God extends to all, for all have sinned.
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
The grace of God extends to all, for all have sinned.
Titus 2:11
11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Romans 3:23
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Post 549 did you understand it ?
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
It is Finished !

All for whom Christ died, He has by His Death alone for them, perfectly satisfied God's Law and Justice for them, and this Truth remains steadfast regardless if they for whom He died, believe it not, for there not knowing it, not believing it, cant undo what Christ hath done for God and them. The Unbelief of the Elect sinner for whom Christ died cannot overturn the satisfaction Christ's Death provided to God's Law and Justice, its been accomplished; For either Christ's Death has propitiated the Father once and for all, for all their sins or it has not. If it has [and it has] it would be contrary to the Justice of God to ever punish, charge any of those Christ died for with sin ! So Paul in understanding this Writes Rom 8:33-34

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Who is Christ making Intercession for ? Quite simple, those He died for !
 

Ogom

Active member
Aug 22, 2020
275
79
28
ogom.co
@Funkus


if it's so difficult to get through to people's brains, after 28? pages it must be that either someone is wrong, the other is at a different level of understanding and both are right........ or both are some wrong / right some, or both are wrong. :)
 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
It is finished continued !

If God could punish those Christ died for, after punishing them once already in Christ, God would be Unjust to His Son Christ, and renege on The Covenant engagements ! God Justly punished Christ for all their sins. God in His Injustice would be punishing those Christ died for Twice, once in their Surety Substitute and now a Second Time in them. So all who Teach that the satisfaction the Death of Christ made for sinners that He died for, unto God's Law and Justice, on their behalf, and yet you teach many of the same shall perish in their sins [That Christ died for 1 Cor 15:3], you are openly before the world charging God with cold hearted injustice, making Him out to be a Unjust God. You are teaching that God has and will act contrary to His own Justice, for there is simply no way around it. A persons act of belief has absolutely nothing to do with what on Christ's Sacrifice can and has accomplished before the law and Justice of God, on their behalf [Which is the Eternal Forgiveness of their sins] or Redemption Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. The Eternal Redemption obtained was not for Him Personally, but for those He died for !

Now if He punishes any of the Us of Heb 9:12 for any one sin, to include unbelief, God has set aside the Satisfaction of His Son on their Behalf and becomes Unjust !
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,525
1,313
113
Romans 11:16-20

16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Keep reading, Grandpa …

Romans 11:21-22 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.




Grandpa said:
Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

The church … the body of Christ of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head and each born again one a member in particular … is completely separate from Israel (Jew in vs 28) and gentiles (Greek in vs 28).




Grandpa said:
The Israel of God are all those who belong to Christ. Always has been.
The term “Israel of God” appears in Galatians 6:16 …

Galatians 6:

15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.


Paul refers to the Israel of God as not having anything to do with circumcision (Jews/Israel) or uncircumcision (gentiles).

Again, the church (the body of Christ of which the Lord Jesus Christ is the Head and each born again one a member in particular … is completely separate from Israel (circumcision in vs 15) and gentiles (uncircumcision in vs 15).




Grandpa said:
Galatians 3:6-7
6 Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.


7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

This isn't spiritualized or allegorized. Its plain english telling you how it is.
Abraham was Hebrew (Gen 14:13).

Abraham was grandfather to Jacob … Jacob was given the name Israel by the angel of God (Gen 32:28). The children of Israel (Jacob) make up the nation of Israel.


Born again believers are called children of Abraham … Abraham was Hebrew, Abraham was not an Israelite.

Israelites are physical descendants of Abraham through Jacob (aka Israel).

Ishmaelites are physical descendants of Abraham through Ishmael.

Born again believers are children of Abraham through faith:

Galatians 3:

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.


Again, separate and distinct from Israel.



 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
Perfected forever Heb 10:14

14 For by one offering[His Death] he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

When scripture states that by His One Offering [His Death or Blood] of Himself , those He died for are perfected forever, it means that they are Eternally Justified Perfectly before God's Law and Justice, based solely on Christ's sacrifice !

This is True because of Imputed Righteousness of Jesus Christ, His Righteousness is in behalf of all for whom He died ! His Righteousness laid to our Charge if He died for us is:

entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings

accurate, exact, or correct in every detail

As far as God's Law and Justice is concerned , those Christ died for are Isa 61:10

I will greatly rejoice in the LORD, my soul shall be joyful in my God; for he hath clothed me with the garments of salvation, he hath covered me with the robe of righteousness, as a bridegroom decketh himself with ornaments, and as a bride adorneth herself with her jewels.

Ps 132:9

Let thy priests be clothed with righteousness; and let thy saints shout for joy.

Who are His Priests ? These Rev 1:5-6

And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.144
He made us that by His Love and Blood ! We have a perfect Righteousness by Christ and so have been perfected forever before God !
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,525
1,313
113
Heb 9:12

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us. The Eternal Redemption obtained was not for Him Personally, but for those He died for !
sigh ... We've already gone over this verse, brightfame52 ...

Post #259:

The words "for us" in Hebrews 9:12 were added to the text by translators.
Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...
New International Version:
Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
English Standard Version:
Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
King James Version:
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.
New King James Version:
Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
New American Standard Bible:
Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.
American Standard Version:
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
English Revised Version:
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
International Standard Version:
Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.


Also see Post #271.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!



 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
sigh ... We've already gone over this verse, brightfame52 ...

Post #259:

The words "for us" in Hebrews 9:12 were added to the text by translators.
Here is the verse as it appears in various versions ...
New International Version:
Hebrews 9:12 He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption.
English Standard Version:
Hebrews 9:12 he entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
King James Version:
Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption [for us] the words appear in italics in the KJV to alert the reader that the words were added by the translators.
New King James Version:
Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
New American Standard Bible:
Hebrews 9:12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all time, having obtained eternal redemption.
American Standard Version:
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
English Revised Version:
Hebrews 9:12 nor yet through the blood of goats and calves, but through his own blood, entered in once for all into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption.
International Standard Version:
Hebrews 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with his own blood he went into the Most Holy Place once for all and secured our eternal redemption.


Also see Post #271.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
You still dont understand it.
 
Mar 23, 2016
4,525
1,313
113
You still dont understand it.
It's not that I don't "understand it". I do understand. I do not agree with your dogma.


I have shown you that the words "for us" do not appear in the text of Hebrews 9:12. It is now your responsibility to believe God's Word ...

Hebrews 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his ownblood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Are you going to walk out in faith on God's Word concerning this issue? It'll be interesting to see what you do in the future ... trust God or continue in rebellion.



 

brightfame52

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2020
1,369
108
63
Christ's One Offering Sanctified forever those He died for !

Heb 10:10

10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Yes, The writer is writing to Believers, however that [believing] is not how they became sanctified forever, which was solely by means of the Sacrifice or Offering of the Body of Jesus Christ, which means by His Death !

This is a Great Blessing of the Death of Christ, all for whom He died, once and for all, set them apart !

The word sanctified here is the greek word hagiazō and means:


to render or acknowledge, or to be venerable or hallow

2) to separate from profane things and dedicate to God

a) consecrate things to God

b) dedicate people to God

3) to purify

a) to cleanse externally

b) to purify by expiation: free from the guilt of sin

c) to purify internally by renewing of the soul

Please understand that Christ's Death is also the cause of internal renewing of the soul or as Paul writes it Titus 3:5

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Christ's Death alone is the Sole Cause of this renewing of the Holy Ghost, for that is why when He ascended on High upon completion of His Death Work, the Father gave Him the Holy Spirit to pour upon all them He died for and to ensure their experimental sanctification by the Spirit. Here is where He receives the Holy Ghost scripture says Acts 2:33

Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he [Christ] hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

This shed forth of the Holy Ghost is taught by Paul also Here Titus 3:5-6

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

Thats why those jews on the day of Pentecost asked for spiritual instruction from hearing Peter's sermon Acts 2, their asking that question showed that they had been renewed by the Holy Ghost, which Christ just had shed forth !