The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

[brightfame52]

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

You cant believe it. Thats why Paul says that one must first be given the Spirit in order to 1 Cor 2:12

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

Otherwise the Gospel things are foolishness to the natural man.

 

[riverhooks]

Turn from sin , turn to Jesus. This is what the Holy Spirit influences a soul to do. Your argument that All for whom Christ died for must be saved is not scriptural . Christ died for all. Your religion which obviously you believe, is that no repentance is necessary nor even possible. A serious indictiment against all who deny that Christs Death alone in and of itself, is what saved those who He died for ? That is some statement. I will say , When I was born-again I bought a new testament , I read it for a couple of days , When I got to John 15:1 I am the Vine and you are the Branches, The Holy Spirit opened my eyes that indeed “never a man spake like this man “ . Through the revelation of the Word and the Ministry of the Holy Spirit . He began to show me my sins from my childhood to that moment, and I understood that I had been living totally unaware of the Living God and The Jesus really did rise from the dead that He was alive and for all I knew most people did not know it. So begin a pursuit of God. Christs death was made effective by my turning sin ( unbelief) and turning to God. My name was written in the book of life. And I understood from that moment that God had touched my life and that I needed to find this Jesus because nobody apparently in my view no one knew that this Savior was alive that lived 2,000 years ago. This is back in the seventies during the Jesus People outpouring of the Holy Spirit worldwide. Life and that more abundant has been my portion , I believed God loved me and had a wonderful plan for my life. He did as a member of the Body of Christ, He led me and guided me to this very day. Up hills and down hills but he has always been faithful. I knew that I had to get close to Jesus when I was born-again so close that I could pray them into the kingdom that was my motivation to follow Jesus , both Parents and 4 siblings didn’t want Jesus. Those were tough times but God was bringing me out of the world system . There was no doubt in my mind that faith in Gods Word His exceeding great and precious promises would release the ministry of the Holy Spirit upon their lives and eventually bring them to saving faith which it did . Now if your theology does not bring you into an inimate relationship with the Holy Spirit. If you believe that Christ died only for some . How do dare call yourself a believer when you spend your time exalting yourself that God chose you over others. We are justified by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We are not auto-saved by election. Is this difficult to understand ? Jesus made it simple so that a child a child could believe but all this Meaty Heady and Proud doctrine serves no purpose but to overload new ones and confuse them a make it difficult/////It misrepresents Jesus. All Jesus and the Apostles and the Prophets had to say was REPENT. Some airhead comes along and says you don’t need to repent . You are seated with Christ the rest are predestined to destruction. I am going to puke. God wants a People who OBEY HiS Voice. Old Testament and New . No Robots. No Select of the Elect where someone who wrests scripture thinks they can go around this . You have a free will always did . I suggest you use it rather than become the accuser of the brethren. God has gone out of His way to show me that it is a level playing field. I am no better than the deepest sinner , He accepts me because of substitution NOT ELECTION !!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You cant believe it.

I believe Scripture ... your dogma does not align with Scripture.

brightfame52 says:

"all for whom He died have, even before they are born sinners, and after being born sinners but not yet believers in Christ, in fact, while they are His Enemies by nature, they all have by the Blood of Christ alone: Reconciliation, Redemption, Remission / Forgiveness of sins, Justification"​

Scripture says:

1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Your religion which obviously you believe, is that no repentance is necessary nor even possible.

Exactly ... brightfame52 has gone so far as to claim that Paul, while still defiled in sin, was actually seated in the heavenlies in Christ ... that is the heavenly holy of holies ... what a lie from the pit!!!


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

We are justified by faith. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We are not auto-saved by election.

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

 

[brightfame52]

I believe Scripture ... your dogma does not align with Scripture.

brightfame52 says:

"all for whom He died have, even before they are born sinners, and after being born sinners but not yet believers in Christ, in fact, while they are His Enemies by nature, they all have by the Blood of Christ alone: Reconciliation, Redemption, Remission / Forgiveness of sins, Justification"​

Scripture says:

1 Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.​

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

You not believing scripture in this case.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You not believing scripture in this case.

sure I believe Scripture ... interesting you cannot get to the Lord Jesus Christ having taken away the sin of the whole world (John 1:29) without manipulating God's Word to fit your dogma ...

 

[brightfame52]

It Gives Faith in Christ !

Jn 12:32

32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Now drawing effects coming as in Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.253

Same word draw as in Jn 12:32 !

And the coming results in not being cast out Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Coming is also the same as believing we derive that from Jn 6:64-65

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

Jesus here clearly equates not believing or believing not in Vs 64
with not having been able to come to Him in Vs 65. So if anyone understands drawing to Christ to be anything less than coming to Him believing or in Faith as to Salvation, they are ignorant to the meaning of the drawing [ Divine Power] to Him. Coming to Him denotes Faith in operation Heb 11:6. This drawing and coming is the result of an inward and irresistible call or summons by the voice of the Shepherd Saviour to His Sheep. Jn 10:3-4

To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

The word for draw in Jn 12:32 the greek word helkō it also carries the idea of leading:


to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Jesus assures that this occurs to all for whom He was lifted up in behalf of !

 

[brightfame52]

sure I believe Scripture ... interesting you cannot get to the Lord Jesus Christ having taken away the sin of the whole world (John 1:29) without manipulating God's Word to fit your dogma ...

Read post 927 perhaps God will give you faith to believe His Word.

 

[riverhooks]

I’m moving on renewed it’s up to the site whether they allow false teachers here . I feel they should be held accountable. It is indeed tragic that Brightfame 52 filters scripture through the TULIP doctrine . While repulsing the Spirit of Truth and Scripture. Nothing new really I gave it shot , like I mentioned before I did this exact same thing with a former church member for 6 years on Facebook messenger . Sometimes you just have to let go and call a spade a spade. God alone can unentangle brightfame from his Calvinist interpretation. He enjoys thinking He as it all figured out. Bottom line. Waste of time , He has his own group of brethren that tell him what he wants to hear . Another Jesus , another Gospel . I find that he lacks the honesty and integrity to address plain statements of scripture . I'm done.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Jn 6:37

37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

Coming is also the same as believing we derive that from Jn 6:64-65

"coming" is not the same as "believing".

The word "coming" is translated from the Greek word erchomai

The word "believe" is translated from the Greek word pisteuō


Rather than "derive" what God had revealed in Scripture, just read what is written.

Do not "derive" from Scripture ... and quit using your wrangling of Scripture to prop up your dogma which is steeped in men's reasonings.

The word for draw in Jn 12:32 the greek word helkō it also carries the idea of leading:

to draw, drag off

2) metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

There are two Greek words for ‘draw’ in the N.T., one of which necessarily implies violence, the other does not: it is the latter that is used here and in John 6:44; the former is used Acts 14:19; Acts 17:6. Man’s will is free; he can refuse to be drawn: and there is no violence; the attraction is moral.​

 

[reneweddaybyday]

’m moving on renewed it’s up to the site whether they allow false teachers here

okey-dokey river hooks ...

hope/pray you have a very blessed day!!!

 

[brightfame52]

"coming" is not the same as "believing".

The word "coming" is translated from the Greek word erchomai

The word "believe" is translated from the Greek word pisteuō


Rather than "derive" what God had revealed in Scripture, just read what is written.

Do not "derive" from Scripture ... and quit using your wrangling of Scripture to prop up your dogma which is steeped in men's reasonings.





Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

There are two Greek words for ‘draw’ in the N.T., one of which necessarily implies violence, the other does not: it is the latter that is used here and in John 6:44; the former is used Acts 14:19; Acts 17:6. Man’s will is free; he can refuse to be drawn: and there is no violence; the attraction is moral.​

You continue to resist the truth.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You continue to resist the truth.

revealing your manipulation of Scripture concerning what you "derive" is not resisting truth. I showed that your statement was not truth ...

In the text, there are two completely different words used.

erchomai is erchomai

pisteuō is pisteuō


"coming" (erchomai) is not the same as "believing" (pisteuō).


Your statement that "Coming is also the same as believing" is untrue.

For me to resist what is untrue is, in reality, me holding to the truth laid out in Scripture.



The same holds true for the word "draw" as used in John 12:32. I have provided information concerning the word "draw":

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

There are two Greek words for ‘draw’ in the N.T., one of which necessarily implies violence, the other does not: it is the latter that is used here and in John 6:44; the former is used Acts 14:19; Acts 17:6. Man’s will is free; he can refuse to be drawn: and there is no violence; the attraction is moral.​

 

[brightfame52]

Loved us and Washed us from our sins !

Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Now when did those Christ died for, whom he Loved Eph 5:25254

25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;

Church here corresponds with us in Rev 1:5

5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us[The Church], and washed us[The Church] from our sins in his own blood,

Now when were they Loved by Him and when were they washed from their sins ?

Well as far as the Loving them goes, it was set upon them before the world began. As to the washing them from their sins, legally it happened at His Death, the shedding of His Blood. After having died, and being risen it is stated Heb 1:3

3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged[or washed our sins away], sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high:

That word purged means:

cleansing, purification, a ritual purgation or washing

a) of the washing of the Jews before and after their meals

b) of levitical purification of women after childbirth

c) a cleansing from the guilt of sins wrought by the expiatory sacrifice of Christ

Now what does this mean ? It means that everyone Christ Loved and died for , that before they know anything about it, and while they are yet enemies and unbelievers, children of wrath by nature as others, they have been by the blood of Christ washed from the legal guilt of sins which is Justification from them, purged of that guilt before God. This means that are Justified from, and forgiven of all their sins. They are before God, legally innocent of any sins being charged by God unto them, now and forever !

This had nothing to do with anything they did ! No, they did not have to believe or repent to get that Legal standing of Justification from all sin before God, Christ did it all and set down at the Right Hand of the Majesty on High !

 

[brightfame52]

revealing your manipulation of Scripture concerning what you "derive" is not resisting truth. I showed that your statement was not truth ...

In the text, there are two completely different words used.

erchomai is erchomai

pisteuō is pisteuō


"coming" (erchomai) is not the same as "believing" (pisteuō).


Your statement that "Coming is also the same as believing" is untrue.

For me to resist what is untrue is, in reality, me holding to the truth laid out in Scripture.



The same holds true for the word "draw" as used in John 12:32. I have provided information concerning the word "draw":

Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges:

There are two Greek words for ‘draw’ in the N.T., one of which necessarily implies violence, the other does not: it is the latter that is used here and in John 6:44; the former is used Acts 14:19; Acts 17:6. Man’s will is free; he can refuse to be drawn: and there is no violence; the attraction is moral.​

Christs redeeming death gives Faith in Christ. Nobody Christ died for will go through this life without coming to Faith in Christ, Believing on His Name.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

they did not have to believe or repent to get that Legal standing of Justification from all sin before God

READ YOUR BIBLE !!!

I choose to believe the Lord Jesus Christ:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


... I choose to believe Peter:

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

... I choose to believe Paul:

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

 

[brightfame52]

READ YOUR BIBLE !!!

I choose to believe the Lord Jesus Christ:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.


... I choose to believe Peter:

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

... I choose to believe Paul:

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.



READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Post #934 do you understand it ?

 

[riverhooks]

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Post #934 do you understand it ?

I replied to your Post #934.

How about you deal with the issues in Post #936

In post #934, brightfame52 says:

"they did not have to believe or repent to get that Legal standing of Justification from all sin before God "​

In Scripture, the Lord Jesus Christ says:

Matthew 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.​

​

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.​

In Scripture, Peter says:

Acts 2:37-38 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.​

In Scripture, Paul says:

Acts 17:30-31 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.​

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

 

[brightfame52]

It makes us free from sin !

Jn 8:36

If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

All for whom Christ died are made free from sin, from being a servant of sin

Jn 8:34-35

34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.

However the Son, for those He died for, makes them free from the servitude of sin, Thats how the Son makes you free Vs 36

Now all for whom He died are made free from sins servitude which Paul means by this Rom 6:18

Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Both being made free from sin and becoming the servants of righteousness, the subjects are being acted upon, in other words the being made free in the greek is ἐλευθερόω and is in the passive voice. The subject did not free himself, but was set free ! Remember the Covenant blessing of Christ is:

Isa 42:7

6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

And also in the greek, the ye became the servants of righteousness, it literally means:

to enslave, bring under subjection

It also is in the passive voice. Christ's death effects the enslavement of them into righteousness.

Now being made free from sin by Christ's death, means being made free from unbelief.

Being in unbelief is liken to being in a prison Rom 11:32


2 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

That word concluded is the greek word συγκλείω:


I enclose, shut in, make subject to.

God caused all for whom Christ died for to be subject to unbelief ! To be enclosed by it or imprisoned by it.

And one the effects of His Death for those He died for is to set them free from unbelief !

Thats why when one believes its an evidence of the effects of Christ having set them free from unbelief or sin !