THE CALLING OUT OF THE BRIDE, to go to The Wedding of the Lamb

[PlainWord]

Robes are robes
heaven is heaven
saints are saints
martyrs are martyrs
hail is hail
LOF is LOF


The symbolic stuff is symbolic stuff.

No brainer

Are Beasts Beasts? Do you see a Sea Creature rising up forcing people to worship it?

Are lampstands, lampstands?

Is the Sea of Glass, a literal Sea of Glass?

Is an Olive Tree an Olive Tree?

Are Horns, Horns?

Is Satan a real dragon?

Is Christ really a lamb?

What does Satan have against the Creatures in the Sea to want to harm them?

Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.

Was a Harlot really riding a scarlet beast?

Did a great eagle really fly a woman into the desert to escape a dragon?

Do angles really sit on clouds with large sickles and reap all the people with it?

Is there really a great winepress that the wicked are going to be squeeze into?

Will a giant millstone really be tied around a city and thrown into the sea?

Will the Lord have a real sword shooting out of His mouth and kill all the wicked?

____________________________________________________________________

If your answer to any of this is NO then what makes you think 2 literal people are going to have fire come out of their mouths whereby they burn up their enemies?

Please take this with the love that is intended. Learn what Biblical symbols are and what they mean and understand that John was writing in a code to protect himself and those in possession of his book.

 

[MarcR]

Are Beasts Beasts? Do you see a Sea Creature rising up forcing people to worship it?



Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.



____________________________________________________________________

If your answer to any of this is NO then what makes you think 2 literal people are going to have fire come out of their mouths whereby they burn up their enemies?

Please take this with the love that is intended. Learn what Biblical symbols are and what they mean and understand that John was writing in a code to protect himself and those in possession of his book.

I agree that much in revelation is definitely symbolic; but much may be literal.

Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Both the Hebrew Cochavim and the Greek Astrides can mean either stars/suns or angels of light.

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Certainly not ordinary horses or ordinary riders; but certainly it is not beyond to devise a literal fulfillment; though they may well be symbolic of the discomforts they represent.


Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

quite possibly; just as the mark of the beast is likely a literal mark.

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.

again, neither of us doubt God's ability to create such creatures. Certainly they might be symbolic.

 

[MarcR]

Are Beasts Beasts? Do you see a Sea Creature rising up forcing people to worship it?



Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.



____________________________________________________________________

If your answer to any of this is NO then what makes you think 2 literal people are going to have fire come out of their mouths whereby they burn up their enemies?

Please take this with the love that is intended. Learn what Biblical symbols are and what they mean and understand that John was writing in a code to protect himself and those in possession of his book.

I agree that much in revelation is definitely symbolic; but much may be literal.

Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Both the Hebrew Cochavim and the Greek Astrides can mean either stars/suns or angels of light.

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Certainly not ordinary horses or ordinary riders; but certainly it is not beyond to devise a literal fulfillment; though they may well be symbolic of the discomforts they represent.


Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

quite possibly; just as the mark of the beast is likely a literal mark.

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.

again, neither of us doubt God's ability to create such creatures. Certainly they might be symbolic.

 

[PlainWord]

I agree that much in revelation is definitely symbolic; but much may be literal.

Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Both the Hebrew Cochavim and the Greek Astrides can mean either stars/suns or angels of light.

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Certainly not ordinary horses or ordinary riders; but certainly it is not beyond to devise a literal fulfillment; though they may well be symbolic of the discomforts they represent.


Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

quite possibly; just as the mark of the beast is likely a literal mark.

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.

again, neither of us doubt God's ability to create such creatures. Certainly they might be symbolic.

God is capable of everything, for sure. The "locusts" who bite like scorpions selecting their victims going only after the wicked is very similar to the Angel of Death from Egypt who went after only those who did not mark their doors with blood. What is means is an open question.

I am glad that you apparently agree with there being a lot of symbolism in Revelation. You chose 4 of the 18 I cited to comment upon. Not sure if you agree the other 14 are definitely symbolic, and not literal? The subject which started this mini thread are the two witnesses. Are they literally 2 fire breathing, plague imposing people or do they represent Israel and the Church?

I think we agree that the "Beast" that kills them is symbolic and not a literal Beast that attacks them a kills them like something you would see in a horror movie? So is this literal?

the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Will there be a giant Satanic Beast crawling up out of the bottomless pit that will A) wage war, B) Overcome and C) Kill two people?

We are told the whole world will see this. So do they literally see this monster? If however, the Beast is symbolic of the evil influences of the Devil causing people to act under his evil influences and they instead are waging a spiritual war against Israel and the Church and they overcome the Church in the arena of public opinion to the point were Judo-Christians values are no longer accepted as norm and instead are despised, then a different meaning is in play.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The above describes a spiritual "killing" does it not? The spiritual place is called, A GREAT CITY. What else in Revelation is called, A GREAT CITY?

...standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Whoa, Babylon is called a Great City. We know it's an evil city. We are given spiritual names of Sodom and Egypt as it related to where the 2 witnesses are killed. Just saying.

You can take a literal approach and get 2 fire breathing men who are killed by a beast from the Bottomless Pit.

Or

You can see the 2 witnesses as the Church and Israel who God put on earth to be his witnesses and that they are eventually overcome by Satan during the Tribulation whereby public opinion rejects the teachings of God. Public turns against Israel and the Church and instead follows their own sense of law and righteousness. Public opinion will no longer respect the sanctity of marriage, allowing any to marry, they will value tolerance over God's law. They will be carried away by money and possessions worshiping those things above God.

 

[PlainWord]

Compare these passages:

Revelation 11:7

[ The Witnesses Killed ] When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Revelation 12:17
And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7
It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

I believe these 3 passage describe the same event stated 3 different ways. We have war being waged against Saints and we have the Saints overcome in both Rev 11 and 13.

So practically speaking what does this mean for us Christians?

We have WAR
We have OVERCOMING
THEN we have DEATH

Spiritually speaking we have been at War since Christ.
Spiritually speaking, for the first time in my life, and perhaps since Christ, evil appears to be "overcoming" us in the world. Christianity is under attack everywhere now even in the USA. But the light still shines. What comes next is death for most of us.

 

[MarcR]

God is capable of everything, for sure. The "locusts" who bite like scorpions selecting their victims going only after the wicked is very similar to the Angel of Death from Egypt who went after only those who did not mark their doors with blood. What is means is an open question.

I am glad that you apparently agree with there being a lot of symbolism in Revelation. You chose 4 of the 18 I cited to comment upon. Not sure if you agree the other 14 are definitely symbolic, and not literal? The subject which started this mini thread are the two witnesses. Are they literally 2 fire breathing, plague imposing people or do they represent Israel and the Church?

I think we agree that the "Beast" that kills them is symbolic and not a literal Beast that attacks them a kills them like something you would see in a horror movie? So is this literal?

the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.

Will there be a giant Satanic Beast crawling up out of the bottomless pit that will A) wage war, B) Overcome and C) Kill two people?

We are told the whole world will see this. So do they literally see this monster? If however, the Beast is symbolic of the evil influences of the Devil causing people to act under his evil influences and they instead are waging a spiritual war against Israel and the Church and they overcome the Church in the arena of public opinion to the point were Judo-Christians values are no longer accepted as norm and instead are despised, then a different meaning is in play.

[SUP]8 [/SUP]And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

The above describes a spiritual "killing" does it not? The spiritual place is called, A GREAT CITY. What else in Revelation is called, A GREAT CITY?

...standing at a distance for fear of her torment, saying, ‘Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

Whoa, Babylon is called a Great City. We know it's an evil city. We are given spiritual names of Sodom and Egypt as it related to where the 2 witnesses are killed. Just saying.

You can take a literal approach and get 2 fire breathing men who are killed by a beast from the Bottomless Pit.

Or

You can see the 2 witnesses as the Church and Israel who God put on earth to be his witnesses and that they are eventually overcome by Satan during the Tribulation whereby public opinion rejects the teachings of God. Public turns against Israel and the Church and instead follows their own sense of law and righteousness. Public opinion will no longer respect the sanctity of marriage, allowing any to marry, they will value tolerance over God's law. They will be carried away by money and possessions worshiping those things above God.

I personally believe that Satan (in whatever form he appears) will be served by a literal antichrist, and a literal false prophet. I believe that the 'beast', which represents Satan is likely symbolic of a government.

I believe that the 2 witnesses are literal; and while I'm certainly not dogmatic about it; I suspect that they may be Enoch and Elijah. Their special powers are certainly in keeping with what they are called to deal with.

While I agree that there is a great deal of symbolism throughout Revelation; I believe that the tribulation involves real literal conflicts; and I am reluctant to symbolize everything into allegory.

 

[PlainWord]

I personally believe that Satan (in whatever form he appears) will be served by a literal antichrist, and a literal false prophet. I believe that the 'beast', which represents Satan is likely symbolic of a government.

I believe that the 2 witnesses are literal; and while I'm certainly not dogmatic about it; I suspect that they may be Enoch and Elijah. Their special powers are certainly in keeping with what they are called to deal with.

While I agree that there is a great deal of symbolism throughout Revelation; I believe that the tribulation involves real literal conflicts; and I am reluctant to symbolize everything into allegory.

Right. Interesting you pick Enoch and Elijah. I assume you do this because they had not died a physical death. I assume you take Hebrews 9:27-28 at its word that all should die once? However, the pre-trib rapture suggests that none of those raptured die. Then what about any living Christians who survive the Tribulation? Would they not need to be raptured too? So we would be making another exception to the rule.

To your main point, that the Beast symbolic of a Satanic government and it is this government who wages war with two literal fire breathing men and who kills them; you would accept half of the description as symbolic and the other half as literal. Isn't that a bit unusual? Seems to me that either the whole passage is symbolic or literal but not half one way, half the other way.

In the case of Elijah, he did not consume people by fire from his own mouth, rather fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

2 Kings 1:12

So Elijah answered and said to them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

In evoking Elijah, James and John didn't state that they could consume people with fire from their mouths, but again, that the fire would come down from God.

Luke 9:54

And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

The two witnesses are said by John to be able to consume their enemies from fire from their mouths. See?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

We are told the two "witnesses" have power.

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days...

We have no example of any man spewing literal fire from their mouths burning up their enemies. However, we have a companion passage that says this:

Acts 1:8

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 4:33

And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Clearly, the disciples have been given POWER as WITNESSES. Sounds similar huh? How about this?

Jeremiah 5:14

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Thus the Word of God is like FIRE in your MOUTH "consuming" your enemies with Truth. I believe this is the message John was trying to deliver in his coded Apocalyptic literally style. We know for a fact that John used symbols in Revelation that he took from the OT prophets. The Jer 5 one is a perfect match.

At least acknowledge that my explanation for the two witnesses is at plausible, even if you disagree. I do have a valid intrepetation that doesn't include two literal men breathing out fire and burning up people then being attacked and killed by a BEAST from the Pit.

 

[MarcR]

Right. Interesting you pick Enoch and Elijah. I assume you do this because they had not died a physical death. I assume you take Hebrews 9:27-28 at its word that all should die once? However, the pre-trib rapture suggests that none of those raptured die. Then what about any living Christians who survive the Tribulation? Would they not need to be raptured too? So we would be making another exception to the rule.

To your main point, that the Beast symbolic of a Satanic government and it is this government who wages war with two literal fire breathing men and who kills them; you would accept half of the description as symbolic and the other half as literal. Isn't that a bit unusual? Seems to me that either the whole passage is symbolic or literal but not half one way, half the other way.

In the case of Elijah, he did not consume people by fire from his own mouth, rather fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

2 Kings 1:12

So Elijah answered and said to them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

In evoking Elijah, James and John didn't state that they could consume people with fire from their mouths, but again, that the fire would come down from God.

Luke 9:54

And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

The two witnesses are said by John to be able to consume their enemies from fire from their mouths. See?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

We are told the two "witnesses" have power.

Revelation 11:3
And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days...

We have no example of any man spewing literal fire from their mouths burning up their enemies. However, we have a companion passage that says this:

Acts 1:8

But you shall receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the end of the earth.”

Acts 4:33

And with great power the apostles gave witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus. And great grace was upon them all.

Clearly, the disciples have been given POWER as WITNESSES. Sounds similar huh? How about this?

Jeremiah 5:14

Therefore thus says the Lord God of hosts: “Because you speak this word, Behold, I will make My words in your mouth fire, And this people wood, And it shall devour them.

Thus the Word of God is like FIRE in your MOUTH "consuming" your enemies with Truth. I believe this is the message John was trying to deliver in his coded Apocalyptic literally style. We know for a fact that John used symbols in Revelation that he took from the OT prophets. The Jer 5 one is a perfect match.

At least acknowledge that my explanation for the two witnesses is at plausible, even if you disagree. I do have a valid intrepetation that doesn't include two literal men breathing out fire and burning up people then being attacked and killed by a BEAST from the Pit.

PlainWord,

Given the symbolic nature of the entire book of Revelation; discerning what is literal is difficult at best.

I don't read it the same way you do; but I am certainly not persuaded of my own infallibility.

We don't need to agree on such things; since they will not change our destination. We seem to agree on the important stuff; and we will learn whether one or both of us are wrong on this in His good time.

 

[PlainWord]

PlainWord,

Given the symbolic nature of the entire book of Revelation; discerning what is literal is difficult at best.

I don't read it the same way you do; but I am certainly not persuaded of my own infallibility.

We don't need to agree on such things; since they will not change our destination. We seem to agree on the important stuff; and we will learn whether one or both of us are wrong on this in His good time.

Agreed, tough to know. However, when I see part of a passage as being spiritual, such as the "Beast who kills" and the witnesses being killed in a spiritual place "Sodom and Egypt," I tend to want to spiritualize the rest of the passage. Therefore, the witnesses who have power and spew fire from their mouths are symbolic of the Church and Israel. The official symbol of Israel is two olive trees and a lampstand. Christ tells us the the Churches are lampstands in Rev 1. All descriptive words for the 2 witnesses, what they do, etc, are consistent with other passages for the church and/or Israel.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Agreed, tough to know. However, when I see part of a passage as being spiritual, such as the "Beast who kills" and the witnesses being killed in a spiritual place "Sodom and Egypt," I tend to want to spiritualize the rest of the passage. Therefore, the witnesses who have power and spew fire from their mouths are symbolic of the Church and Israel. The official symbol of Israel is two olive trees and a lampstand. Christ tells us the the Churches are lampstands in Rev 1. All descriptive words for the 2 witnesses, what they do, etc, are consistent with other passages for the church and/or Israel.

Where our LORD Was CRUCIFIED.. the 2 witnesses are MURDERED there, where was Christ Crucified? Jerusalem, indeed.. the 2 LITERAL witness will be killed in the streets of Jersualem and their bodies will lay in open public view for 3 days... then God will Raise them from the Dead , and those who rejoiced in their death, sent presents to each other at their 'death', will Behold them as they ASCEND back into Heaven, Jerusalem at the time of the 2 witnesses will become the 'center for global' business and control, as the Whore of Revelation moves in, makes her a Sodom/Egypt , with their false gospel(Sodom-Apostate), earthly kingdom they will attempt to create( Egypt like in its 'works'), this fueled by the false signs and wonders, present, even the calling down of fire from Heaven, these false miracles , done to deceive the gentile nations of the earth. The 'Gentile' Whore of Revelation 17, its foundation grounded in the pharmaceutical industry, as it becomes its 'left arm', will medicate the masses in its attempt to create a carnal image of christ, replacing the Blood of Christ, with behavior medication. molding and conformiing its IMAGE , CARNAL image grounded in witchcraft-sorcery ... just as the Book of Revelation Describes when it describes her destruction! the ultimate in Idolatry, replacing the Blood of Christ , which Transforms the individual, with a pill, meant to control behavior within a carnal image. man made christ like image.....-------> the mark and image of man... the 2 witnessess are REAL as is their Death, and Jersualem will be their murder and Resurrection Site... as they finish their Witness and Testimony.. preaching out AGAINST THE MAN OF SINS FALSE GLOBAL UTOPIA apostate mimic kingdom and the SOON RETURN OF RIGHTEOUSNESS FROM THE SKY.. the Son of Man who Returns in Glory, His elect angels and Saints with Him... indeed!

 

[Vernon]

Those who teach the pre-tribulation rapture argue that God has not appointed Christians to experience his wrath, so we must be removed before the 7 year tribulation because this is the time of God pouring out his wrath upon the whole earth. But in my understanding God is fully capable of protecting his people on this earth while he pours out his wrath on the wicked. Jesus told us that whoever follows after him will experience persecution, and many scriptures say that the Church will severly persecuted during the great tribulation, so how the Church be raptured and also suffer the worst persecution in the history of the Church?

just a thought.

 

[popeye]

Those who teach the pre-tribulation rapture argue that God has not appointed Christians to experience his wrath, so we must be removed before the 7 year tribulation because this is the time of God pouring out his wrath upon the whole earth. But in my understanding God is fully capable of protecting his people on this earth while he pours out his wrath on the wicked. Jesus told us that whoever follows after him will experience persecution, and many scriptures say that the Church will severly persecuted during the great tribulation, so how the Church be raptured and also suffer the worst persecution in the history of the Church?

just a thought.

Well,sort of.
The church is raptured pretrib,not so that we don't go through it but because the rapture is the gathering of the bride by th groom. Those left behind get their heads chopped off. So,yes the church(those left behind) is present at the beginning. See mat 25.
The rapture marks the times of the gentiles completed and the beginning of jacob's/israel's trouble.

There is no point whatsoever for the church to endure the GT. Besides the word declares that the AC is given power to overcome the saints........and he does.

 

[MarcR]

Right. Interesting you pick Enoch and Elijah. I assume you do this because they had not died a physical death. I assume you take Hebrews 9:27-28 at its word that all should die once? However, the pre-trib rapture suggests that none of those raptured die. Then what about any living Christians who survive the Tribulation? Would they not need to be raptured too? So we would be making another exception to the rule.

To your main point, that the Beast symbolic of a Satanic government and it is this government who wages war with two literal fire breathing men and who kills them; you would accept half of the description as symbolic and the other half as literal. Isn't that a bit unusual? Seems to me that either the whole passage is symbolic or literal but not half one way, half the other way.

In the case of Elijah, he did not consume people by fire from his own mouth, rather fire came down from heaven and consumed them.

2 Kings 1:12

So Elijah answered and said to them, “If I am a man of God, let fire come down from heaven and consume you and your fifty men.” And the fire of God came down from heaven and consumed him and his fifty.

In evoking Elijah, James and John didn't state that they could consume people with fire from their mouths, but again, that the fire would come down from God.

Luke 9:54

And when His disciples James and John saw this, they said, “Lord, do You want us to command fire to come down from heaven and consume them, just as Elijah did?”

The two witnesses are said by John to be able to consume their enemies from fire from their mouths. See?

[SUP]5 [/SUP]And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies.

We are told the two "witnesses" have power.

.

PlainWord,

Then what about any living Christians who survive the Tribulation? I believe that the rapture occurs before the wrath of God is unleashed; probably after the 6th seal is opened but before the seventh seal is opened.

(I believe that the first five seals have already been opened.)

Any believers who come through the tribulation will be present on earth at Jesus' return; and will remain through the millennial reign.


you would accept half of the description as symbolic and the other half as literal. Isn't that a bit unusual? Much of the prophesy of Ezekiel and Daniel IMO expects literal fulfillment; but contains many symbolic elements; so no, I don't think it is particularly unusual.

In the case of Elijah, he did not consume people by fire from his own mouth, rather fire came down from heaven and consumed them.


The two witnesses are said by John to be able to consume their enemies from fire from their mouths. See?

In the case of the two witnesses, whether the fire literally proceeds from their mouths or is called down by their mouths seems of little importance.

 

[popeye]

Are Beasts Beasts? Do you see a Sea Creature rising up forcing people to worship it?

Are lampstands, lampstands?

Is the Sea of Glass, a literal Sea of Glass?

Is an Olive Tree an Olive Tree?

Are Horns, Horns?

Is Satan a real dragon?

Is Christ really a lamb?

What does Satan have against the Creatures in the Sea to want to harm them?

Are 7 stars, really 7 stars/suns?

Are 4 horses literally going to be riding around doing horrible things?

Are the 144K going to really have a seal on their head that says, "God?"

Are locusts really going to be going around biting those with the "mark" like scorpions? Smart locusts, knowing who to bite and who not.

Was a Harlot really riding a scarlet beast?

Did a great eagle really fly a woman into the desert to escape a dragon?

Do angles really sit on clouds with large sickles and reap all the people with it?

Is there really a great winepress that the wicked are going to be squeeze into?

Will a giant millstone really be tied around a city and thrown into the sea?

Will the Lord have a real sword shooting out of His mouth and kill all the wicked?

____________________________________________________________________

If your answer to any of this is NO then what makes you think 2 literal people are going to have fire come out of their mouths whereby they burn up their enemies?

Please take this with the love that is intended. Learn what Biblical symbols are and what they mean and understand that John was writing in a code to protect himself and those in possession of his book.

Yes there is much sybolism.
There is also what John saw that is not sybolic.

2 witness are literal men (died ,resurrected,ascended)

 

[Deliver]

Elijah and Moses, IMO. Enoch types the raptured Bride.

 

[popeye]

1st seal is the AC on a white horse. He brings the conquering ingrediant missing in Jesus's first coming. He fools the Jews,thus he is to many "the christ",the messiah.

1st seal is a government with a satanic head(man).

Has not happened yet. Stay tuned though the leven is doing a quick work.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

1st seal is the AC on a white horse. He brings the conquering ingrediant missing in Jesus's first coming. He fools the Jews,thus he is to many "the christ",the messiah.

1st seal is a government with a satanic head(man).

Has not happened yet. Stay tuned though the leven is doing a quick work.

the son of Perdition.. coming as a man of peace, Judas was the Original son of perdition.. was Judas in Govt'> at that time? was He amongst the political elite? NO, Judas was the guy with the money bag, he slept along side Jesus, ate/drank with Him, saw His Grace and Mercy and Truth and Anger manifested... Judas was a disciple... so the coming man of sin.. 'what 'organization' does he arise out of ? as a Disciple of christ, a person with the money bag...

 

[popeye]

the son of Perdition.. coming as a man of peace, Judas was the Original son of perdition.. was Judas in Govt'> at that time? was He amongst the political elite? NO, Judas was the guy with the money bag, he slept along side Jesus, ate/drank with Him, saw His Grace and Mercy and Truth and Anger manifested... Judas was a disciple... so the coming man of sin.. 'what 'organization' does he arise out of ? as a Disciple of christ, a person with the money bag...

I do not think that because "perdition" is ascribed to both that it necessitates a connection.

But....could be .....I will look into it.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Paul is referring to the man of sin. the Anti Christ...

 

[popeye]

Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the sonofperdition; Paul is referring to the man of sin. the Anti Christ...

I realize they are both called that.
I struggle with that "connection" ascribing any necessity that the AC's role/person now patterns something of Judas' testimony/person