The Falling Away - Is this the rapture?

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DavidTree

Well-known member
Aug 2, 2021
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@TheDivineWatermark , @cv5
Well, hopefully they'll see their names here and contribute their thoughts to your charge. That they equate Rapture with Apostasy.
Just ask them yourself and then see if they lie to you by reviewing their posts.

Member CV5 started a Thread claiming the 'falling away' of 2 Thess ch2 was the departure(rapture) of the Church.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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lol, incidental and necessary are words that have opposite meanings. You can't use them both for same event.




It's not my premise. The people Paul was writing to thought that. If you understood the passage properly you would already know that. Sheesh, you can't even use incidental and necessary in correct sense. You really have no idea what you are saying. You just ramble nonsense and pretend it is meaningful. Do you take any medicines that might be affecting you? If so, please talk to your doctor about your cognitive reasoning issues.
<<<It's not my premise>>>

It's all yours buddy. And it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever lol.
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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<<<It's not my premise>>>

It's all yours buddy. And it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever lol.
Nope. This is just nonsensical silliness. I worry about status of your health because a healthy person would never say things like you do.
 

Lucy-Pevensie

Senior Member
Dec 20, 2017
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@TheDivineWatermark , @cv5
Well, hopefully they'll see their names here and contribute their thoughts to your charge. That they equate Rapture with Apostasy.
Why don't you read the other rapture threads. They argue for the re-definition of the greek apostasia often.
Not all pretribulation believers agree with that interpretation though because the premise is so ridiculous.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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I wentt o the link provided and it's a fact that apostasia is not associated with wording, "Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded:"

Anyone can click on link and see that what I said is true and your claim is false. You took that sentence and simply added on apostasia and apostasis. It's a HIGHLY misleading thing to do. If apostasia and apostasis are even in there at all, they are FAR AWAY from the quoted sentence. I read 3 pages passed the sentence and apostasia and apostasis were not there.
I suspect you do not know what it is you are looking for...


... The words are located on the CONTINUING PAGE (page 25... where the LISTING OF WORDS continues)...

... 7th LINE of the text (not counting the Heading and Page Number at TOP of page)...

... on the RIGHT HALF of the page...

... and they look like this--> "ἀποστασία ( ἀπόστασις " (that is, "apostasia ( apostasis ...")




I am unable to do a simple "Copy and Paste" from that source I linked... it doesn't have that feature option (that I'm aware of).


This is a contentual fallacy where you took something not addressed and made it seem that "Many words which had long been in use received a new form or pronunciation by which the older was in most cases superceded:" was talking about them when it wasn't.
Yes it IS.




Try again.



Those words DO correspond with WHAT HE WAS MAKING A POINT TO SAY.

They are IN THE LISTING!!
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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@Icedaisey , regarding your Post #96... so you agree with my statement in my post you quoted, that the "Strong's Concordance" is not the "end all be all" (as many in this thread insist it be)?
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Nope. This is just nonsensical silliness. I worry about status of your health because a healthy person would never say things like you do.
Crazy talk right there buddy. The babbling of a madman.

ewq1938 said:
"It's also about them (???Christians???) not missing second coming and found in verses 1 and 2."
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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"In the first seven English translations of the Bible (Wycliffe Bible 1384, Tyndale Bible 1526, Coverdale Bible 1535, Cranmer Bible 1539, Breeches Bible 1576, Beza Bible 1583, Geneva Bible 1608) the Greek word "apostasia" was correctly translated in context as "departure"."
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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@Icedaisey , regarding your Post #96... so you agree with my statement in my post you quoted, that the "Strong's Concordance" is not the "end all be all" (as many in this thread insist it be)?
Correct sir. Trying to get that message across is most difficult.
 
Apr 15, 2017
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2Th 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2Th 2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2Th 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
2Th 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Paul said let no person deceive you by any means for the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin is exposed claiming to be God which happens halfway through the 7 years period.

So no matter how you look at it before the 7 tears period, or before the last three and one half years there is no pre-trib resurrection.

The resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God.

And why is that?

Because as long as the world has salvation available to them the saints will remain on earth for they represent the truth.

And there is only 2 resurrections which is one of the saints before the millennial reign, and one of the dead after the millennial reign.

The world has salvation until they take the mark of the beast and then salvation is no longer available to them which is the fulness of the Gentiles come in and then the saints can be resurrected.

The falling away happens at the end of the first three and one half years because the world stopped the preaching of the Gospel on a world wide scale in favor of the new age movement interpretation of the Bible and religions.

This allows the man of sin to be able to rule over them according to what the world wants and the New Age Christ will deceive all people who do not love God and when the saints are resurrected the Bible says then comes the end, and all things are finished for it is over for the rulership of man on earth, and over for sin on earth.

Zec 14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
Zec 14:3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Zec 14:5 and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

Zec 14:9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.

The battle of Armageddon which the saints had to be resurrected to come back with God.

The resurrection will not happen until the man of sin claims to be God halfway through the 7 years period.

But how long afterwards?

The Bible says the beast shall make war against the saints and prevail against them.

And they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years.

And when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished, which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver the kingdom up to the Father.

And for people that think the wrath of God is during the 7 years period it is wrong.

And why is that?

Because God is allowing the world to have their way for 7 years so He will not put them down until the time is over.

Salvation is available for the first three and one half years so God's wrath would not be there for it is the same as now salvation available to the world.

The beast has power to continue for the last three and one half years which he can only have that power if God allows him to have it so the wrath of God is not there.

The seals are not the wrath of God.

And the trumpets are not the wrath of God but are warnings to the world to turn to God and repent of their sins which after the 6th trumpet the world does not turn to God but keep trying to have the world the way they want it, and trying to have peace on earth, and not acknowledging a personal God.

An example WW1, set up League of Nations, did not turn to God.

WW2, set up United Nations, and then set up United Religions, did not turn to God.

And that pattern will continue until the 6th trumpet which is Islam against the world because the world stopped the preaching of anything contrary to the new age movement and the religion of Islam rebelled.

They did not turn to God so He allowed the New Age Christ to rule over them.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Why don't you read the other rapture threads. They argue for the re-definition of the greek apostasia often.
Not all pretribulation believers agree with that interpretation though because the premise is so ridiculous.
Lucy.....the TERM "apostasia" does not carry with it the connotation of a "rapture" ON ITS OWN. But neither does it carry with it ANY connotation of apostasy, faithfulness or faithlessness ON ITS OWN.

However IMO there is a STATED ACTION in 2 thes 2:3 that is the matter at hand. Something is stated to happen ("shall have come THE DEPARTURE") before something else happens.

This stated action is further defined with aplomb when comparing Scripture with Scripture. And it ain't apostasy. It's the rapture. The rapture which is an absolutely crucial and necessary prerequisite before the DOTL can commence.

There is not one single solitary verse in the ALL the epistles that even HINT that Christians are going to be WIPED OUT....VAST VAST NUMBERS OF THEM. Murdered like pigs in an automated slaughterhouse. The vast majority of them in fact. Nope. Not at all. There is only comfort, rest, consolation, at the appearing of our Lord and our gathering to Him.

Where the post-tribbers blow it is the TOTAL FAILURE to comprehend Matt 24, Luke 21 and Mark 13. For this I really do pity them. If they only knew.
 

Icedaisey

Well-known member
Jul 19, 2021
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@Icedaisey , regarding your Post #96... so you agree with my statement in my post you quoted, that the "Strong's Concordance" is not the "end all be all" (as many in this thread insist it be)?
No.
My post answered your question, [what sources did people use as study aids BEFORE 1890, for example ;) ]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
(Titus 2:13 KJV)
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory. (Col 3:4 KJV)
The Blessed Hope of the Church is the Resurrection/Rapture. Not fiery judgments from Heaven at the Second Coming! Those two are Rapture verses misunderstood, misapplied, and mistaken for something far removed from the Rapture.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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Nope. This is just nonsensical silliness. I worry about status of your health because a healthy person would never say things like you do.
Wait a minute.

It seems you yourself are having some difficulty being consistent, in the very things you're attacking others for doing:

Post #91 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660906

[re: 2Th2:1] ewq: The rapture is mentioned once in verse 1.
That there's a NOUN in verse 1. Check it out.



Not the verb "caught up" (G726 - SNATCH / Rapture).



At least be consistent with your accusations, please.

Meaning, apply them just as stringently to your own presentations, on here, not just toward others'... (attacking them for the very things which you yourself do also)... as in the example below:

Post #24 - https://christianchat.com/threads/2...ly-describing-the-rapture.201570/post-4660981

ewq: Rapture is a verb not a noun.
ewq: [...] but go ahead and reject the truth for the nonsense you are promoting.
:rolleyes:



____________


P.S. I would like to see a reasonable response to my Post #105, as well (which stemmed from my Post #32).




Anyone? Anyone? ;)
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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^ Oh yeah... and I forgot to mention this one:

ewq: Which further proves Apostasia is not being raptured because that would require a verb.
ewq: All the evidence is against your claims.
- Post #1265 - https://christianchat.com/threads/h...ular-in-the-modern-church.201091/post-4660742


[yet... you did not require VERSE 1 to have a VERB when you called it a "rapture [G726 - verb]" there! (where's there's no "verb" in reference to it in verse 1)... Why is that? Double standard, much? ;) ]
 

JTB

Active member
Aug 31, 2021
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It has been strongly suggested that the "falling away" as spoken by the Apostle Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4 is the pre-trib rapture.
We who are His Body, as Belonging to Christ, must know the His answer from His Word so as not to be decieved.

When the Disciples asked our Lord Jesus Christ about His Return(the Second Coming) He gave this immediate Commandment & Warning.

And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. - Matthew 24: 3-4

Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come.
Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. 2 Thess 2:1-4

The Apostle Paul combines the clear warning of the Lord Jesus Christ in Matthew 24 with His Second Coming and the "Falling Away".

So is the "falling away" = the departure in the form of a pre-trib rapture or is it a "falling away" a departure from truth = the Gospel?
1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy...

Matthew 24:24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

Mark 13:5 Jesus said to them: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 6 Many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am he,’
and will deceive many.

Mathew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,



Being "caught up" and "falling away" are two quite different things.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
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Being "caught up" and "falling away" are two quite different things.
How similar to each other would you consider the following two phrases:

-- "a standing away from [away from a previous standing]" (i.e. "the departure")

[and]

--"until out of the midst he be come [/come to be]"




... any remote similarity, at all, there?



[as I've mentioned in past posts... Paul REPEATS the "sequence" 3x in this passage... not merely in v.3 (involving the word "FIRST" there)]
 

ewq1938

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2018
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Wait a minute.

It seems you yourself are having some difficulty being consistent, in the very things you're attacking others for doing:

Post #91 - https://christianchat.com/threads/the-falling-away-is-this-the-rapture.201579/post-4660906



That there's a NOUN in verse 1. Check it out.
I already know that. The gathering is a noun that refers to the "caught up" which is a verb. It's still a reference to the rapture. Apostasia is a noun but is not a reference to the "caught up" verb. It is not a word that has any meaning of a physical re-location as you have tried to suggest.