The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[TheDivineWatermark]

Christ comes to the clouds of the Earth, not mars or anywhere else.

We still are "SNATCHED" (TOGETHER, as ONE ENTITY)... "TO the meeting [noun] of the Lord IN THE AIR" (where NO ONE ELSE will be participating but US, to the meeting OF THE LORD! [THERE!])





[whereas, Israel will be "gathered ONE BY ONE"... "to worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM" Isa27:12-13[9] / Matt24:29-31 at the "GREAT" trumpet... and gathered by ANGELS "HE SHALL SEND" to do so...]

 

[ewq1938]

You are ignoring what the false claimants were purporting... it had NOTHING TO DO WITH "gather" or "rapture".

Yes it does.

The false claim was that the day of Christ and the gathering (rapture) already happened. Paul corrected that error by saying two events have to happen before those two events can take place. Before the second coming and rapture happens, a falling away from the one true religion and the revealing of the man of sin have to happen. So Paul was assuring them that they did not miss either event. Turns out they wouldn't live to see any of those events. We are still waiting.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yes it does.

The false claim was that the day of Christ and the gathering (rapture) already happened.

No.

The false claim (v.2) was "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"

"The day of the Lord" is a very lengthy TIME PERIOD that ONLY EVER plays out upon the EARTH (and STARTS with [/"ARRIVES" as] the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:1-3 / Matt24:4&Mk13:5]" which Jesus had spoken of... and thus which corresponds with the FIRST SEAL as well as the "whose COMING / ARRIVAL / ADVENT / PRESENCE / parousia" of the man of sin, 2Th2:9a[8a] [paralleling OTHER passages speaking of this STARTING point at the BEGINNING of the "7 years"]).

There is NO evidence whatsoever in the text showing that the "false claimants" (v.2) EVER spoke of "rapture [IN THE AIR]" or a "gathering" to there. NONE.







[It is PAUL that is BRINGING the Subject of "our rapture [IN THE AIR]" (in v.1) TO BEAR on the problem of the "false claim" of v.2 which is an EARTHLY-LOCATED TIME PERIOD, by contrast... supplying the SEQUENCE of how these two distinct items "FIT" in relation to each other]

 

[ewq1938]

The false claim (v.2) was "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"

That's the same thing I said but I said it without all the nonsense you add. You are also wrong not to include that they thought they missed the gathering/rapture.

 

[Evmur]

Jesus used lot and noah.
Therefore in order to insert a trib vs wrath dynamic we would need to see devastation as in the 4 horsemen etc PRIOR to the flood.

No such dynamic exists.
Neither is there any component of a mark or buying/selling restricted.
We would also need mass martyrdom with a ac type figurev demanding worship.

But no....the ONLY position that fits is pretrib rapture.
Normal life
Noah and lot taken
Judgement.

Exactly like the pretrib rapture.

Act 1 is in perfect harmony also, and same harmony in the virgin parable.

Lot underwent EXTREME tribulation at the hands of the Sodomites ... God's wrath began after Lot was gone out of the city.
Tribulation is not God's wrath.

 

[cv5]

Lot underwent EXTREME tribulation at the hands of the Sodomites ... God's wrath began after Lot was gone out of the city.
Tribulation is not God's wrath.

Agree.....

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
The false claim (v.2) was "that the day of the Lord IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"

That's the same thing I said but I said it without all the nonsense you add. You are also wrong not to include that they thought they missed the gathering/rapture.

...except you are definining "the day of the Lord [is present]" MINUS [/LEAVING OFF] what PAUL had already said that "the day of the Lord [earthly time period]" includes...

...which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" / SEAL #1 (at its "ARRIVAL"... and FURTHER "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" / SEALS also, since they were saying, of it, that it had arrived at some "point of TIME in PAST..." [PERFECT indicative]" [v.2], i.e. still unfolding in their present experience--which is what made that falsehood SO BELIEVEABLE, and a perfectly REASONABLE thing to be persuaded was TRUE--to the Thessalonians [due to their ONGOING present NEGATIVE real-life experiences according to 1:4]).



Today, it would be equivalent to someone coming along and telling us (any of the following):

--"the SEALS have already been opened and are unfolding in our present experience" (Paul would tell us to say to that, "NOT!!");

--"the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" have already begun to be experienced in this world (Paul would tell us to grasp, "NOT!!");

--"the TRIBULATION PERIOD [7 yr period] is already present and unfolding upon the earth" (Paul would have us know this, "NOT!!");

--"the time of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth is already here and they have been transpiring for some time now" (Paul would say to that, and have us saying regarding that, "NOT!")

--etc...




However, by CONTRAST, what *you* are saying [that the text says] is, "Christ's SECOND COMING has already happened [and thus the RAPTURE has already happened]"... which is NOT what Paul is conveying that the "false claim" consisted of (per v.2)... because of your having adopted the "Amill-teaching's INCORRECT DEFINITON of "the day of the Lord [is present / is already here]"...

...which Paul makes abundantly clear in 1Th5:1-3 that it "ARRIVES" "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of the MANY "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that JESUS HIMSELF SAID kicks off that time-period LEADING UP TO His Second Coming to the earth / RETURN to the earth<--which aspect you are entirely LEAVING OFF (of the "definition" of "the DOTL" earthly time-period unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME), thus SKEWING entirely what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this context.





Believe what you wish, ewq.

 

[cv5]

...except you are definining "the day of the Lord [is present]" MINUS [/LEAVING OFF] what PAUL had already said that "the day of the Lord [earthly time period]" includes...

...which is the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" / SEAL #1 (at its "ARRIVAL"... and FURTHER "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" / SEALS also, since they were saying, of it, that it had arrived at some "point of TIME in PAST..." [PERFECT indicative]" [v.2], i.e. still unfolding in their present experience--which is what made that falsehood SO BELIEVEABLE, and a perfectly REASONABLE thing to be persuaded was TRUE--to the Thessalonians [due to their ONGOING present NEGATIVE real-life experiences according to 1:4]).



Today, it would be equivalent to someone coming along and telling us (any of the following):

--"the SEALS have already been opened and are unfolding in our present experience" (Paul would tell us to say to that, "NOT!!");

--"the BEGINNING of birth PANGS" have already begun to be experienced in this world (Paul would tell us to grasp, "NOT!!");

--"the TRIBULATION PERIOD [7 yr period] is already present and unfolding upon the earth" (Paul would have us know this, "NOT!!");

--"the time of JUDGMENTs unfolding upon the earth is already here and they have been transpiring for some time now" (Paul would say to that, and have us saying regarding that, "NOT!")

--etc...




However, by CONTRAST, what *you* are saying [that the text says] is, .. which is NOT what Paul is conveying that the "false claim" consisted of (per v.2)... because of your having adopted the "Amill-teaching's INCORRECT DEFINITON of "the day of the Lord [is present / is already here]"...

...which Paul makes abundantly clear in 1Th5:1-3 that it "ARRIVES" "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" of the MANY "birth PANGS [PLURAL]" that JESUS HIMSELF SAID kicks off that time-period LEADING UP TO His Second Coming to the earth / RETURN to the earth<--which aspect you are entirely LEAVING OFF (of the "definition" of "the DOTL" earthly time-period unfolding upon the earth OVER SOME TIME), thus SKEWING entirely what it is that Paul is actually conveying in this context.





Believe what you wish, ewq.

"Christ's SECOND COMING has already happened [and thus the RAPTURE has already happened]".

Exactly. For some unfathomable reason EWQ has failed to picked up on this paradoxically absurd failure in his train of thought......

 

[cv5]

A religious revolt is the same as religious departure which is the same thing as Apostasy. "and NT always of religious apostasy: Ac21:21, II Th 2:3."

You do realize that seven versions of the Bible that predate the 1611 KJV simply state "THE Departure"? Correct?

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"Christ's SECOND COMING has already happened [and thus the RAPTURE has already happened]".

Exactly. For some unfathomable reason EWQ has failed to picked up on this paradoxically absurd failure in his train of thought......

Well, a great many people DO think that is what the false claimants were purporting (v.2), but that's based on their INCORRECTLY adopting a woefully WRONG "definition" of the phase "the day of the Lord" (ignoring completely what Scripture itself says of that time period, what PAUL had already stated regarding that time period in 1Th5:1-3, and completely disconnecting that from what JESUS HIMSELF had already said about that very thing in His Olivet Discourse...) and choosing rather to go with the "Amill-teaching's" (and others') FAULTY definition of that phrase (in verse 2, "the day of the Lord"--which Paul is pointing out was wrongly being purported that IT IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [i.e. playing out upon the earth in their present experience])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

of the phase

EDIT to correct spelling (for clarity): [should read] "of the phrase..."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

...except you are definining

"defining"

... oooo boy, I can tell this is going to be a doozy of a day. lol



= D

 

[peldom10]

You do realize that seven versions of the Bible that predate the 1611 KJV simply state "THE Departure"? Correct?

Which seven versions?

 

[cv5]

Well, a great many people DO think that is what the false claimants were purporting (v.2), but that's based on their INCORRECTLY adopting a woefully WRONG "definition" of the phase "the day of the Lord" (ignoring completely what Scripture itself says of that time period, what PAUL had already stated regarding that time period in 1Th5:1-3, and completely disconnecting that from what JESUS HIMSELF had already said about that very thing in His Olivet Discourse...) and choosing rather to go with the "Amill-teaching's" (and others') FAULTY definition of that phrase (in verse 2, "the day of the Lord"--which Paul is pointing out was wrongly being purported that IT IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [i.e. playing out upon the earth in their present experience])

It seems far more plausible that the Thessalonians MAY have thought that Paul's earlier teaching (2 Thes 5:2) about matters pertaining to the rapture were erroneous, insofar is the sequence of events is concerned (seeing as they had doubts and thought that perhaps they were in the DOTL). If anything they probably thought that they had misinterpreted Paul's earlier teachings.

But it seems absolutely absurd to think that they had "missed the rapture"....as so many assume.

But nobody knows for sure, it's all speculation. All that we really know is that false teachers were propagating disinformation, telling the Thessalonians that they were actually experiencing the DOTL phenomenal expressions, therefore that the DOTL had begun.

 

[cv5]

It seems far more plausible that the Thessalonians MAY have thought that Paul's earlier teaching (2 Thes 5:2) about matters pertaining to the rapture were erroneous, insofar is the sequence of events is concerned (seeing as they had doubts and thought that perhaps they were in the DOTL). If anything they probably thought that they had misinterpreted Paul's earlier teachings.



But nobody knows for sure, it's all speculation. All that we really know is that false teachers were propagating disinformation, telling the Thessalonians that they were actually experiencing the DOTL phenomenal expressions, therefore that the DOTL had begun.

EDIT
"But it seems absolutely absurd to think that they thought that they had "missed the rapture"....as so many assume."

 

[Absolutely]

There's nothing complicated about it. Before apostasia was created, there was no specific word for Apostasy. The closest they had was apostasis which could mean a vast range of things that had to do with a change of position/mind etc. Eventually a new word was created with a specific meaning of falling away/departure from the truth. From that word a later word was also created, Apostasy.

That's why Winer and every Greek dictionary all agree that apostasia does mean departure from the truth and various other similar things that all equal to Apostasy.

Pre-tribs answer to this is to ignore all of those sources or claim they are "fibbing" What a joke.

Lets play out your position.
We will see a departure from the faith, people will lean toward secularism with heathens Galore. Then in that mix we will see the Antichrist himself revealed, but not yet in power, not seated, only revealed as if the covers are pulled off. And so in your own position, your own template we see the rapture could happen a week or even a day after it is pinpointed that this person is definitely the Antichrist.
Well ,the thing is, that means your position is pre-tribulation, because every bit of that is before the Great Tribulation.

 

[Absolutely]

so that means the first part of the rapture( apostacy) is already here according to postribbers.
So with that component in place now, all that is needed is the ac exposed as the ac and then the rapture.

Postribbers are actually supporting a pretrib rapture.

Too funny

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You do realize that seven versions of the Bible that predate the 1611 KJV simply state "THE Departure"? Correct?

Right.

 

[Absolutely]

Lot underwent EXTREME tribulation at the hands of the Sodomites ... God's wrath began after Lot was gone out of the city.
Tribulation is not God's wrath.

Nope
He chose to live there.
He even had inlaws.
No such thing in the mix as the 4 horsemen or the mark.
No antichrist
No buy/seeling restrictions.
Read what the 4 horsemen do.

Lot is living normal
Lot removed BEFORE JUDGEMENT.

Pretrib rapture vividly pictured by the words of Jesus.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

EDIT
"But it seems absolutely absurd to think that they thought that they had "missed the rapture"....as so many assume."

Right.

...because:

--nothing in the text (i.e. Paul informing about, in verse 2) alludes to any such thing, in the false claimants' "purporting"
(THEIR claim was [instead] "THAT THE DOTL IS PRESENT / IS ALREADY HERE [PERFECT indicative]"--That's it! PPL like to "READ INTO" that, a completely foreign thought not found in this text, here [v.2 regarding their false claim])

--absolutely nobody had disappeared (there is ZERO EVIDENCE of such)