The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

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ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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Please provide a list of those truly saved Christians who you think at one time believed and then unbelieved. From the New Testament. Thank you.
1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

This refers to the Apostasy Paul wrote about. The definition of the word is in my signature.
 
Dec 15, 2021
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THE TRIAL OF OUR FAITH IS MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD.


WHAT DOES IT SOUND LIKE?
2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.


DEFINITELY WHAT I AM LOOKING TO FIND

11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, my father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.

THE TRIAL OF OUR FAITH IS MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to His abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:
7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:
8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:
9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.


THE TRIAL OF OUR FAITH IS MUCH MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD.

SO THAT THE PROVEN GENUINENESS OF YOUR FAITH MORE PRECIOUS THAN GOLD PERISHING BY FIRE THOUGH BEING REFINED MAY BE DISCOVERED TO RESULT IN PRAISE AND GLORY AND HONOR IN REVELATION OF JESUS CHRIST.


1383. dokimion ►
Strong's Concordance
dokimion: a testing
Original Word: δοκίμιον, ου, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: dokimion
Phonetic Spelling: (dok-im'-ee-on)
Definition: a testing
Usage: a test, trial, what is genuine.
HELPS Word-studies
Cognate: 1383 dokímion (a neuter noun) what is found approved (genuine) after testing, focusing on the inevitable results of this. See 1384 (dokimos) and 1381 (dokimázō).

1381b. dokimasia ►
Strong's Concordance
dokimasia: a testing, a proving
Transliteration: dokimasia
Definition: a testing, a proving



1384. dokimos ►
Strong's Concordance
dokimos: tested, approved
Original Word: δόκιμος, ον
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: dokimos
Phonetic Spelling: (dok'-ee-mos)
Definition: tested, approved
Usage: approved, acceptable, tried.

1 Corinthians 11:17 Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse.
18 For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it.
19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

James 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.
9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted:
10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.
11 For the sun is no sooner risen with a burning heat, but it withereth the grass, and the flower thereof falleth, and the grace of the fashion of it perisheth: so also shall the rich man fade away in his ways.
12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him.
13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
18 Of His own will begat He us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
 

TheDivineWatermark

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Aug 3, 2018
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"will also raise up" is one Greek word:
G1825
ἐξεγείρω
exegeirō
ex-eg-i'-ro
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
Total KJV occurrences: 2
It's a resurrection!
You sure about that??


[I think not. MAY THE READERS view its only other occurrence... and consider what I'd said about (the) "PURPOSE"... (see also the context related verse I'd put: 1Cor6:3)]
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

This refers to the Apostasy Paul wrote about. The definition of the word is in my signature.
Christ knows who are His and prays for them effectively. Jesus never ever loses any of His sheep......not a single one.

There are HUGE so-called Churches who probably do not possess not one single solitary real true believer. Only the damned and deceived attend those places. You know them......Joel Osteen, Kenneth Copeland, Herbert W. Armstrong. So many others. Those who escape those pits of deception and come to believe are the elect. But if you DO stay at those fake Churches no way José.....you're not gonna make it.

The bottom line is those who depart from the faith never believed in the first place. They were faking it and they didn't make it. The Judases, the Korah's, the Baalam's, the Simon the Sorcerer's and the Cain's. Unsaved.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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You sure about that??


[I think not. MAY THE READERS view its only other occurrence... and consider what I'd said about (the) "PURPOSE"... (see also the context related verse I'd put: 1Cor6:3)]
Romans 9:17. Very good thanks.....
 
Dec 15, 2021
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605. apokatastasis
Strong's Concordance
apokatastasis: restoration
Original Word: ἀποκατάστασις, εως, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apokatastasis
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-ok-at-as'-tas-is)
Definition: restoration
Usage: restitution, reestablishment, restoration.

1209. dechomai
Usage: I take, receive, accept, welcome.

891. achri or achris ►
Strong's Concordance
achri or achris: until, as far as
Original Word: ἄχρι
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: achri or achris
Phonetic Spelling: (akh'-ree)
Definition: until, as far as
Usage: as far as, up to, until, during.


5550. chronos ►
Strong's Concordance
chronos: time
Original Word: χρόνος, ου, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: chronos
Phonetic Spelling: (khron'-os)
Definition: time
Usage: time, a particular time, season.


Acts 3:21
whom it behooves heaven indeed to receive until times of restoration of all things of which spoke God by mouth of holy from age His prophets


CHRIST IS GOING TO REMAIN IN HEAVEN ALL THE WAY UP UNTIL IT IS TIME FOR THE RESTORATION OF ALL THINGS.

AKA NO TRIP TO EARTH BEFORE THAT TIME BECAUSE THAT WOULD NOT BE THE TIME FOR THE RESTORATION/REESTABLISHMENT/RESTITUTION



WHY NOT? BECAUSE IF CHRIST LEFT TO COME AND PRE TRIB THE CHURCH THIS VERSE WOULD BE RENDERED VOID.

IF JUST ONE VERSE IS RENDERED VOID THEN THE DOCTRINE THAT WOULD REQUIRE CHRIST TO LEAVE HEAVEN AND COME TO THE AIR OF EARTH WOULD IN ITSELF BE WITHOUT TRUTH.


THE CONTEXT

Acts 3:18 But those things, which God before had shewed by the mouth of all his prophets, that Christ should suffer, he hath so fulfilled.

19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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What is of no value whatsoever (and is in fact an extremely damaging heresy) is the preaching and teaching and promoting of replacement theology.

A completely unacceptable false doctrine and needs to be flagged as such.
OK, if that's what the other posts is pushing, you are correct about replacement theology being a false doctrine.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
No, Rev 19 refutes that idea soundly. We find the bride GETTING READY for the wedding banquet, and then immediately accompanying King Jesus to earth to end the Tribulation and setting up His kingdom.

It is totally appropriate for the King to have His wedding banquet IN His earthly kingdom. Why should He purposely leave out the martyrs from the Trib? Why would He do that? It sure doesn't make sense.
Hi FG,

I agree that the symbolic `wedding feast,` the joining again of Israel and God is on the earth. (Matt. 22: 12)
I don't see it as symbolic at all. But a REAL celebration of the King of kings, and Lord of lords.

However it is NOT the Body of Christ that comes with the Lord as His mighty army to defeat the world`s nations and deliver Israel, it is His angelic army.
I don't see how. Rev 19 doesn't specify Israel getting ready for the wedding supper. It's ALL the saints that are in heaven. I'd like some evidence for your claim from Scripture if you have some. Thanks.

JESUS AND HIS HOLY ANGELS.
So who comes with Jesus when He returns in great power and great glory?
Rev 19 tells us plainly. The Bride of Christ.

When Jesus was on earth the disciples asked Him to tell them about what would happen to Israel & the nations at the end of this age. Jesus told them quite clearly about the tribulation & persecution Israel would endure but that He would come again with His mighty angels to deliver Israel & judge the nations of the world.
But this doesn't support your claim above.

`they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power & great glory. And He will send His angels..` (Matt.24: 30 & 31)

`When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him...` (Matt. 25: 31)

`the Son of Man comes in His glory, & in the glory of the holy angels.` (Luke 9: 26)

`when Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,..` (2 Thess. 1: 7)


These Holy angels are the army who come with Jesus when he brings vengeance upon the ungodly.
Yes, angels will come with Jesus. But you won't find that in Rev 19. What you will find in that chapter is the Bride of Christ. Which I firmly believe will be EVERY saved person from Adam on.

`Then I saw heaven opened and behold a white horse. And He who sat on him was called faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war....And the armies in heaven clothed in fine white linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.` (Rev. 19: 11 & 14)
Interesting that the description of this army's clothing is exactly the same as that of the Bride of Christ, in that chapter.

This is also the description on the angels coming out of the temple in heaven. They symbolically had garments of linen, white and clean. This is to distinguish them as holy angels and not demonic angels.
This clothing is exactly the same as being worn by the Bride of Christ, preparing for the supper.

White horses - represent glory and power.

The Bible refers to angels and saints as Holy Ones. We need to check scriptures as to which is spoken of.

Translation Errors of `Holy Ones.`

Jude 14, Deut. 33: 2, Zech. 14: 4.
You just explained that those who accompany the King of kings are both angels and the saints.
 
Jan 31, 2021
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cv5 said:
Apostates don't believe and then un-believe.
Wrong. Apostates believe, then they stop. In the case of the Apostasy, they fall away to a false Christ so they still will thin they are Christians but a false Christ means they are false Christians.
ewq, you are quite correct.

Apostacy means "to no longer believe what one once believed". iow, it's a full change of mind. According to a dictionary I consulted a long time ago, it said the word can be used either for politics or religion!!

How about that! So if a raving liberal changed their mind and became a staunch conservative, they would have apostatized. Or vice versa.

And that's the point about apostates; they used to believe one thing, but then changed their minds and believed the opposite.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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cv5 said:
Apostates don't believe and then un-believe.

ewq, you are quite correct.

Apostacy means "to no longer believe what one once believed". iow, it's a full change of mind. According to a dictionary I consulted a long time ago, it said the word can be used either for politics or religion!!

How about that! So if a raving liberal changed their mind and became a staunch conservative, they would have apostatized. Or vice versa.

And that's the point about apostates; they used to believe one thing, but then changed their minds and believed the opposite.
LOL. No. Apostates depart because they never believed. They never believed with true saving faith I can tell you that. Because if they did TRULY believe they would never depart. Simple as that.

John 10:28,29. Boiler plate doctrine and unfailing guarantee. Spoken by Christ Himself.

The apostates do NOT have eternal life and they WILL perish. Because they did not believe Jesus words and abide in them.....because contained in true belief is abiding. They did NOT TRULY receive Jesus Christ as Lord and keep His command to be saved per Acts 17:30....and keep the commands of the Apostles. Because if they did......they would.

They went their own way.......the way of Cain. The truly saved.....they stay saved and are brought to inevitably to full glorification.
 

Marilyn

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Jul 27, 2021
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FreeGrace2 said:
No, Rev 19 refutes that idea soundly. We find the bride GETTING READY for the wedding banquet, and then immediately accompanying King Jesus to earth to end the Tribulation and setting up His kingdom.

It is totally appropriate for the King to have His wedding banquet IN His earthly kingdom. Why should He purposely leave out the martyrs from the Trib? Why would He do that? It sure doesn't make sense.

I don't see it as symbolic at all. But a REAL celebration of the King of kings, and Lord of lords.


I don't see how. Rev 19 doesn't specify Israel getting ready for the wedding supper. It's ALL the saints that are in heaven. I'd like some evidence for your claim from Scripture if you have some. Thanks.


Rev 19 tells us plainly. The Bride of Christ.


But this doesn't support your claim above.


Yes, angels will come with Jesus. But you won't find that in Rev 19. What you will find in that chapter is the Bride of Christ. Which I firmly believe will be EVERY saved person from Adam on.


Interesting that the description of this army's clothing is exactly the same as that of the Bride of Christ, in that chapter.


This clothing is exactly the same as being worn by the Bride of Christ, preparing for the supper.


You just explained that those who accompany the King of kings are both angels and the saints.
Jesus ONLY said it was the angels with Him as I quoted.

The clothing `fine linen, white and clean,` (Rev. 19: 14) is the same as the angels described in Rev. 15: 6. It refers to HOLY angels and not the demonic ones.

When God`s word says `holy ones,` then we need more clarification. It does NOT mean both.
 

Marilyn

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As to Israel, they are the `wife,` who has `made herself ready,` (Rev. 19: 7)

Israel was known as the wife, and God the husband, (Isa. 54: 5 & 6).

Israel rebelled and thus God `divorced` her. (Jer. 3: 8).

Thus God will marry His `wife,` as shown in the book of Hosea 3: 1.

God has `betrothed Israel to Himself forever. (Hos. 2: 19 & 20)
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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Apostacy means "to no longer believe what one once believed". iow, it's a full change of mind. According to a dictionary I consulted a long time ago, it said the word can be used either for politics or religion!!

And that's the point about apostates; they used to believe one thing, but then changed their minds and believed the opposite.
These will NEVER become apostates....ever. Because they have kept His Word. Because they "truly knew", they abide. Really the whole chapter is required to get the full impact.
John 17:6-8
I revealed Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, and to Me You gave them, and they have kept Your word. Now they have known that all things You have given Me are of You. For the words that You have given Me I have given them, and they received them, and knew truly that I came forth from You; and they believed that You sent Me.

Apostates have not set their love upon Him, nor"known" His Name. Therefore they are NOT delivered.
Psa 91:14
Because he hath set his love upon me, therefore will I deliver him: I will set him on high, because he hath known my name.

Apostates have not made the Most High their "habitation".
In fact they have fled FROM it.....because they have NO LOVE for Him.
Psa 91:9
Because thou hast made the LORD, which is my refuge, even the most High, thy habitation;

Apostates never loved Jesus....because God was NEVER their Father.
Jhn 8:42
Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Apostates never were of God, because they DID NOT hear God's word.
Jhn 8:47
He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

Apostates DID NOT KEEP His saying. Because they have NOT known Him.
Jhn 8:55
Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.

I could go on and on and on for endless pages. But you get the picture.
I often wonder if those who have an incorrect diagnosis of apostasy....aren't apostates themselves.....:unsure:
 

ewq1938

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Oct 18, 2018
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I often wonder if those who have an incorrect diagnosis of apostasy....aren't apostates themselves.....:unsure:
So says the person who rejects all official sources of the definition of Apostasia which is Apostasy.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Just to clarify--I am not a post- tribber. In fact I believe all of you are all wrong, but that is my opinion.

Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their testimony to Jesus and for the word of God, and who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands.

It is clear that during the time to take the mark some do not and the righteous are still be killed during the time of the antichrist so they are still part of church per say. I personally see the rapture occuring before the bowl judgements at final reaping.

Rev. 14:14 Then I looked, and lo, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat upon the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” 16 So he who sat upon the cloud swung his sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
That's the main harvest of jews AFTER the firstfruit jews are gathered in rev 14:1-3.
That main harvest of jews in vs 14 are gathered second.
It is impossible that it is the main harvest of the gentile bride ( the rapture).
 
O

Omegatime

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That's the main harvest of jews AFTER the firstfruit jews are gathered in rev 14:1-3.
That main harvest of jews in vs 14 are gathered second.
It is impossible that it is the main harvest of the gentile bride ( the rapture).
All first believers were all jewish and as gentiles we were grafted in, and now you want to separate the jews from the gentiles?
 

cv5

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So says the person who rejects all official sources of the definition of Apostasia which is Apostasy.
Official errors. Fortunately corrections have been made.
 
Jul 23, 2018
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Here TDW has changed the wording of this verse to say something it does not say:

1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Raising the Lord up and raising the dead in Christ up is about resurrections not "raising out". This verse is not speaking of the rapture. This is yet another example of dishonesty by those of pre-trib.


"will also raise up" is one Greek word:


G1825
ἐξεγείρω
exegeirō
ex-eg-i'-ro
From G1537 and G1453; to rouse fully, that is, (figuratively) to resuscitate (from death), release (from infliction): - raise up.
Total KJV occurrences: 2

It's a resurrection!

It's deception to change the English from "will also raise up" to "will raise us out".

Pre-trib is a false doctrine that changes scripture to insert a pre-trib rapture through eisegesis.
You guys have only one PowerPoint.
Rapture to white horses in the air and armageddon battle.

That, to you guys is the entire rapture doctrine.

Ahem...which ain't ANYWHERE in the bible.

So what you guys Position is, as far as "discussion" is anti pretrib.

(Conjecture and omission CENTERED.)

Pretrib rapture has a soul.
It is the gathering of the bride as we see in Ruth.
It is the marriage im heaven.
It is the feast in heaven as Jesus foretold in the last supper dialogue.
At that feast is the innumerable number, and the 2 harvests of jews in rev 14.
It is deliverance from judgement as the 2 "escape verses" declare ,as well as Noah, lot, and the baby Jesus were also delivered....Prejudgment

It is imminency.
We watch and wait for our groom to take us to the marriage
( vividly portrayed in mat 25)
It is the fact we mount white horses in the churches FINEST HOUR IN HEAVEN .
Postribbers look for the devil on his white horse.

It is bride becoming the wife in heaven right before we mount those horses
We are the faithful.
We watch
We wait
We look to our groom
We see " Jacobs trouble/Israels trouble as what it REALLY IS ( the pressure on the Jews)....for their harvest in rev 14.

So all those verses DECLARING EXACTLY THAT....
MUST BE CHANGED.

It is tragic.
 
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