The Gospel continues to be misunderstood

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Jan 12, 2019
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#61
My view of the Church age is place at the beginning of Christ earthly ministry,
That can't be, because you will face more issues with Jesus ministry. First from Paul

Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

Next from Jesus's words himself

Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
#62
Is it similar as saying if you don't give money to the church or to God, you will also retard your "own spiritual growth and service to God"?
Thats true though.

If you have a job and a steady income and you are not tithing to anyone, what exactly is wrong with you?

Now if you're homeless I AINT HATING ON YOU

But most people who refuse to tithe are well paid professionals. If I can tithe from mopping floors you should too! And NO its not obligatory to give tithe in the NEW COVENANT, but I think its a good and fair amount the LORD loves a cheerful giver. Give to whatever cause the Lord puts in your heart.

Me personally I only care about ONE thing and that is evangelism, so that is where my main focus is.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#63
Thats true though.

If you have a job and a steady income and you are not tithing to anyone, what exactly is wrong with you?

Now if you're homeless I AINT HATING ON YOU

But most people who refuse to tithe are well paid professionals. If I can tithe from mopping floors you should too! And NO its not obligatory to give tithe in the NEW COVENANT, but I think its a good and fair amount the LORD loves a cheerful giver. Give to whatever cause the Lord puts in your heart.

Me personally I only care about ONE thing and that is evangelism, so that is where my main focus is.
Would you say to him, “I doubt your conversion since you are unwilling to give money to the church?”
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#64
Is it similar as saying if you don't give money to the church or to God, you will also retard your "own spiritual growth and service to God"?
Well the Bible clearly teaches God's people to bring offerings to God.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#65
True, but we have others in this thread who have this view that, if a Christian don't get water baptized, there are reasons to doubt whether he is really saved.
Let's take the analogy of one who voluntarily joins the army but then refuses to obey orders given by his officers. Would you say he was serious about his commitment?

When a sinner turns to Christ, he is no longer his own person but he is Christ's purchased possession. Therefore if Christ commands obedience in baptism and he refuses, it means he was not serious about his repentance and faith in Christ.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#66
Let's take the analogy of one who voluntarily joins the army but then refuses to obey orders given by his officers. Would you say he was serious about his commitment?

When a sinner turns to Christ, he is no longer his own person but he is Christ's purchased possession. Therefore if Christ commands obedience in baptism and he refuses, it means he was not serious about his repentance and faith in Christ.
So what you are saying is “salvation is a free gift by grace but if you want to keep the gift, you have to obey this list of commandments”?
 

Limey410v2

Senior Member
Jul 2, 2017
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#67
So we don't need to remember all our individual sins in order to be saved.

We do need to repent (change our mind) from the belief that we can work our way to salvation, cease from our work, and accept Jesus's finished work at the cross.
Amen, the sin issue between man and God was resolved on the cross, once and for all over 2000 years ago by the perfect sacrifice of the perfect lamb. Forgiveness for ALL. That does not mean all are saved. Forgiveness of sin is NOT salvation, rather it allows for our salvation.

Salvation comes by us choosing to accept the free gift of the Holy Spirit upon our repentance. Once we have received that free gift, God can live within us because He has fully forgiven us.

If we weren't fully and completely forgiven, then the first time we commit a sin He would leave us. Scripture is clear that He doesn't do that. Ergo, he must see us as Holy, sinless and righteous by the imputed righteousness of Christ.

It is the law of sin and death that condemns us, Jesus came and solved both of those problems. He forgave sin, and gave us eternal life the moment we believed Him.

When I sin (which I still do) I thank Him for his perfect sacrifice and for His Grace and Mercy, understanding that the completed work of Christ was surely enough.

Scripture tells us He came to give us rest. That His yolk is easy and burden light.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
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#70
Then there are some who claim that God arbitrarily elects some for salvation, and others for damnation (which would be a violation of the character of God as well as a travesty of the Gospel). Therefore we need to be clear from Scripture are to what exactly is the Gospel, and how God saves sinners purely by His grace.


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Hi Nehmiah,

I'm one of those who believes that it is God is the One who is doing the saving and that by His Sovereign choice. Since everyone is a sinner and deserves death, God is not being unfair by His decision of predetermining to save some and not others. God could have decided to not save anyone and He would be perfectly righteous in His judgment, because all have sinned. Below are some examples of God's Sovereign choice:

Not only that, but Rebecca’s children were conceived by one man, our father Isaac. 11Yet before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand, 12not by works but by Him who calls, she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” 13So it is written: “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Certainly not! 15For He says to Moses:

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

16So then, it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18Therefore God has mercy on whom He wants to have mercy, and He hardens whom He wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me, “Then why does God still find fault? For who can resist His will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? Shall what is formed say to Him who formed it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21Does not the potter have the right to make from the same lump of clay one vessel for special occasions and another for common use?

22What if God, intending to show His wrath and make His power known, bore with great patience the vessels of His wrath, prepared for destruction? 23What if He did this to make the riches of His glory known to the vessels of His mercy, whom He prepared in advance for glory— 24including us, whom He has called not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles?

In the context above, Paul is providing examples of God’s Sovereign choice regarding those who are saved and those who are not, referring to loving Jacob and hating Esau before either one of them had been born or done anything good or bad. In the same way, he refers to Pharaoh of whom he said, “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display My power in you, and that My name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”

Likewise, in the scripture above, Pharaoh did not have a choice in the matter, but God raised him up for the purpose of displaying His power and that His name might be proclaimed in all the earthe. As an example of this, we read that every time Moses performed a miracle, it states that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The scripture above infers that the Father does not draw everyone, but only those whom He has chosen according to His will.

To you who believe, then, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, “The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone,” and, “A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word—and to this they were appointed.

The scripture above is self explanitory in that, it states that those who stumble in disbelief do so because they were appointed to stumble, i.e. to not believe.

And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. 29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.

“For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love 5He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6to the praise of His glorious grace, which He has freely given us in the Beloved One.

In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in Christ, would be for the praise of His glory.

Strong's Concordance

proorizó: to predetermine, foreordain

Original Word: προορίζω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proorizó
Phonetic Spelling: (pro-or-id'-zo)
Definition: to predetermine, foreordain
Usage: I foreordain, predetermine, mark out beforehand.

Strong's Concordance

proginóskó: to know beforehand

Original Word: προγινώσκω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: proginóskó
Phonetic Spelling: (prog-in-oce'-ko)
Definition: to know beforehand
Usage: I know beforehand, foreknow.

HELPS Word-studies

4267 proginṓskō (from 4253 /pró, "before" and 1097 /ginṓskō, "to know") – properly, foreknow; used in the NT of "God pre-knowing all choices – and doing so without pre-determining (requiring) them"

The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

And all who dwell on the earth will worship the beast—all whose names have not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain. – Rev.17:8

The two scriptures above demonstrated that those who will worship the beast, will be those who names were not written in the book of life, where said writing took place before the beginning of the world. It also infers that those whose names were written in the book of life was done so before the world began. This shows that those who are saved throughout history was forknown and predetermined before the world even began.

Regarding God's Sovereign election, "GotQuestions" gives the following explaination:

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God choose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23) and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen, because they are receiving what they deserve. God’s choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God; therefore, no one can object if he does not receive anything from God. An illustration would be a man randomly handing out money to five people in a crowd of twenty. Would the fifteen people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No, they do not. Why? Because the man did not owe anyone money. He simply decided to be gracious to some.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#71
The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair.
Well if that were the only objection it would be relatively mild. But the doctrine of Unconditional Election perverts the Gospel and that is extremely serious. Indeed, it produces "another gospel" which Paul condemned in the strongest terms.

However, we will have to leave that for another thread, and there will never be any meeting of minds between Calvinists and non-Calvinists (not necessary Arminians).

Election and predestination are clearly Bible doctrines, But they definitely do not apply to salvation and damnation, since GOD COMMANDS ALL MEN EVERYWHERE TO REPENT (Acts 17:30). Had He purposed to save only some, that would be totally inconsistent with His righteousness. In fact it would be downright dishonest.
 
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Hevosmies358

Guest
#72
So why will you put water baptism in a special category on its own?
Because tithing is not commmanded in the NT, water baptism is.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#73
Because tithing is not commmanded in the NT, water baptism is.
Interesting separation you make there, if you separate OT and NT commandments like that, then what about the following passages commanded by Jesus regarding giving all your money to the poor?

Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 12:33 Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
#74
One who has not repented. Has not come to God in pure faith.

They may come to God with claimed faith and works

They may deny God

They may play religion

They will be very judgmental of others, as a means to hide their own guilt

But they have never become the tax collector. Who got on his knees, UNABLE to look up. And ask God for mercy

As jesus said, HE went home justified (by the way, He did not get baptized, so this water baptism regeneration nonsense is just that, Nonsense and adding to the gospel of CHrist)

Jesus said blessed are the poor in spirit. The word poor literally means to be bankrupt to be at the end of the rope. To be hopeless and beyond despair. This is what true repentance does. it brings us to the end, were we can do nothing but look to christ, and place ourselves at his mercy, and trust *have faith) he will do what he promised.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#75
That can't be, because you will face more issues with Jesus ministry. First from Paul


Matt 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Matthew 15:24

While MAD sees a problem with the passage, I see no problem at all. Though Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of the Israel but the context shows that he granted the request of the Canaanite woman. It was the primary purpose that he came to the Jews yet this time Christ touched the lives of a certain Gentile woman.

Matthew 10:5

The same through with while MAD system have the difficulty to deal with scripture, we are taught in the passage that Jesus commanded his disciples in particular the 12 not to go with the Gentiles-Samaritan since full blooded Jews have no dealings with them (John 4:9). Yet, their Master had encountered a Samaritan woman at the Jacobs well (John 4:6). Yet... in another instance he had compassion on a certain Samaritan

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Yet when he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee, one of the ten lepers healed returned and give thanks and glory to the Lord and he was a Samaritan. Glory to Jesus because he not only reached the Jews but also to the Gentiles.

Luk 17:16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

But then after the cross nd before Acts 9 we wonder why Philipp had to preached to the Gentile Samaritans

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

If MAD is indeed correct, why did Philipp preached to the Samaritans who according to Jesus rule they wouldn’t go? Hoho, so aside from inferring a baptismal regeneration is taught in the bible, GC is not to all nations, the gospel of salvation begun at Paul etc MAD so far is showing problems with the scripture of truth to all of the gospel books.

Ahh…something had some stinky feet on that system of dispensation.

I myself had also a view of dispensation but not MAD.
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#76
Matthew 15:24

While MAD sees a problem with the passage, I see no problem at all. Though Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of the Israel but the context shows that he granted the request of the Canaanite woman. It was the primary purpose that he came to the Jews yet this time Christ touched the lives of a certain Gentile woman.

Matthew 10:5

The same through with while MAD system have the difficulty to deal with scripture, we are taught in the passage that Jesus commanded his disciples in particular the 12 not to go with the Gentiles-Samaritan since full blooded Jews have no dealings with them (John 4:9). Yet, their Master had encountered a Samaritan woman at the Jacobs well (John 4:6). Yet... in another instance he had compassion on a certain Samaritan

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,
Yet when he passed through the midst of Samaria and Galilee, one of the ten lepers healed returned and give thanks and glory to the Lord and he was a Samaritan. Glory to Jesus because he not only reached the Jews but also to the Gentiles.

Luk 17:16 And fell down on his face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where are the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.

But then after the cross nd before Acts 9 we wonder why Philipp had to preached to the Gentile Samaritans

Act 8:5 Then Philip went down to the city of Samaria, and preached Christ unto them.
Act 8:25 And they, when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, returned to Jerusalem, and preached the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

If MAD is indeed correct, why did Philipp preached to the Samaritans who according to Jesus rule they wouldn’t go? Hoho, so aside from inferring a baptismal regeneration is taught in the bible, GC is not to all nations, the gospel of salvation begun at Paul etc MAD so far is showing problems with the scripture of truth to all of the gospel books.

Ahh…something had some stinky feet on that system of dispensation.

I myself had also a view of dispensation but not MAD.
Samaritans are considered "half jews half gentiles" so your examples are not really suitable but I guess you will stick to them so that is your prerogative.

As for the Canaanite Lady, she knew how to make use of the promise to Abraham Gen 22

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That lady made the correct analogy that even the dogs, a term used by the Jews to describe Gentiles, could be blessed with the crumbs falling from the Jewish children's bread. Thus Jesus healed her because her faith allowed her to be blessed, thru the Jews, as promised to Abraham.

I understand why many of us like to think that the church began in the 4 Gospels. Many Protestant Churches preach almost exclusively from the 4 Gospels so it would certainly be silly if they don't adopt that viewpoint.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#77
Samaritans are considered "half jews half gentiles" so your examples are not really suitable but I guess you will stick to them so that is your prerogative.

As for the Canaanite Lady, she knew how to make use of the promise to Abraham Gen 22

And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed. Because thou hast obeyed my voice.

That lady made the correct analogy that even the dogs, a term used by the Jews to describe Gentiles, could be blessed with the crumbs falling from the Jewish children's bread. Thus Jesus healed her because her faith allowed her to be blessed, thru the Jews, as promised to Abraham.

I understand why many of us like to think that the church began in the 4 Gospels. Many Protestant Churches preach almost exclusively from the 4 Gospels so it would certainly be silly if they don't adopt that viewpoint.
And of course I know so that I said full blooded Jews, yet the ruling was that they need not go as MAD is saying yet I've given passages that tells plainly they did go. Careless to say that because of many protestant churches preach almost exclusively from the 4 gospels so that I derived mine. No, I derived it from the scriptures. The point is to jew first then Gentiles...even the first (old) Testament so called oracles is to the Jew first...
 
Jan 12, 2019
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#78
No, I derived it from the scriptures. The point is to jew first then Gentiles...even the first (old) Testament so called oracles is to the Jew first...
So if you do agree that Jesus's ministry in the 4 Gospels was exclusively to the Jews, why would you think the church, which comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles, started during then? Doesn't it seem contradictory?

The very first occasion when the Gentiles were blessed, independent of the Jews, happened after Mid acts, after Stephen was stoned.
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#79
So if you do agree that Jesus's ministry in the 4 Gospels was exclusively to the Jews, why would you think the church, which comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles, started during then? Doesn't it seem contradictory?

The very first occasion when the Gentiles were blessed, independent of the Jews, happened after Mid acts, after Stephen was stoned.
There again you have the problem for the new testament church is comprised first with the believing Jews then the believing Gentiles...
 

fredoheaven

Senior Member
Nov 17, 2015
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#80
So if you do agree that Jesus's ministry in the 4 Gospels was exclusively to the Jews, why would you think the church, which comprised of believing Jews and Gentiles, started during then? Doesn't it seem contradictory?

The very first occasion when the Gentiles were blessed, independent of the Jews, happened after Mid acts, after Stephen was stoned.
Umm, everything so far seems MAD presents with a problem with the plain scriptures so the alternative is to place it in Acts 9 the beginning of it all for the NT church...