The Lord's Day (Rev. 1:10) - Sabbath (7th) or Sunday (1st) or Eschatological day or something else?

[ChristianSubMissionary]

Wiktionary: Judaizer—3. (historical) One of the Jews who accepted Christianity but still adhered to the law of Moses and worshipped in the temple at Jerusalem.​

I don't know if you're a Judaizer or not, I'm just saying there are plenty of them who say the "Lord's Day" is the Saturday Sabbath and if you don't observe it you aren't saved.

So, are you saying that only "Jews" kept Sabbath and no Gentiles did so? Please clarify.

Salvation is in Christ Jesus, by God's grace through faith. Scripture says, "In the LORD shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." (Isaiah 45:25).

Acts 14: 15 And saying, Sirs, why do ye these things? We also are men of like passions with you, and preach unto you that ye should turn from these vanities unto the living God, which made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are therein:

Acts 14:16 Who in times past suffered all nations to walk in their own ways.

Where is Paul quoting from in Acts 14:15 and to whom is he saying it to?

Acts 17:30 - And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

What is Paul asking those to whom he is speaking to repent of?

Scripture takes into account 'sins of ignorance' (Numbers 15:23-29; Luke 12:48) and 'sins of presumption' (Numbers 15:30-31; Luke 12:47).

The wages of "sin" (1 John 3:4; Romans 7:7) is death OT (Ezekiel 18:4,20), and NT (Romans 6:23).

Shall murderers (Exodus 20:13; 1 John 3:4) inherit the kingdom?

Shall liars (Exodus 20:16; 1 John 3:4) inherit the kingdom?

Who does the Bible call a "liar"?

Can a person work themselves to death (murder of self by over-extension of labour)?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

The First Day of every month in Rome was the "Emperors Day" so being faithful followers of Jesus Christ, the Disciples named the First Day of every week, the day Jesus rose on, the Lord's Day.

Quite simple really.

I do not find that in scripture (Isaiah 8:20), and sounds made up. Any historical sources to verify what you stated, in that because Romans took a 'monthly' thing in regards their earthly leader, that Christians would somehow attempt a pattern after it for Heavenly matters, and yet alter it in two ways, saying "Lord" instead of Emperor, and 'weekly' instead of monthly?

Also, how does one go from a 'one time' event in the yearly service of the Lord (Passover unto Firstfruits), and make it a weekly thing?

What did Paul say Christians were to do to remember the resurrection in Romans 6?

What did Jesus say of the Lord's supper in the Gospels, was it to remember the resurrection or His death? Was it weekly, or was it as "oft" as they were to eat together?

 

[ChristianSubMissionary]

I'll answer you directly, since no one wants to answer MY question directly, apparently.

What question was not answered "directly"? Please repeat that question.

 

[GaryA]

Then there's the Sun standing still in the OT... how did THAT affect the flow of time?

I would suggest that it had no effect on the passage of time. In fact, we are told that it stood still for a whole day - which indicates the passage of 1 day of time.

 

[Rondonmon]

I do not find that in scripture (Isaiah 8:20), and sounds made up. Any historical sources to verify what you stated, in that because Romans took a 'monthly' thing in regards their earthly leader, that Christians would somehow attempt a pattern after it for Heavenly matters, and yet alter it in two ways, saying "Lord" instead of Emperor, and 'weekly' instead of monthly?

Also, how does one go from a 'one time' event in the yearly service of the Lord (Passover unto Firstfruits), and make it a weekly thing?

What did Paul say Christians were to do to remember the resurrection in Romans 6?

What did Jesus say of the Lord's supper in the Gospels, was it to remember the resurrection or His death? Was it weekly, or was it as "oft" as they were to eat together?

I don't care what you find in scriptures, I am telling you what they called the Lords Day. There is no Sabbath in Christ, ALL DAYS are Holy when we are in him, if you haven't learned that by now then you are still on milk after all of these years. There is no Trinity spelled out in the bible either, but it is a factual concept.

 

[posthuman]

Revelation 1:4 - John to the seven churches

what is 7 + 1?

Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending

which day is the first & also the last?

The answer is in the context, as it always is

according to the law and the testimony,
on what day is a healed leper made clean & presented to the congregation ((Leviticus 14:10-11))?

the coming of the Ogdoad cycles' return

is it your position that Leviticus is a book of Egyptian mythology?

 

[posthuman]

I would hope that discussion might take place

• in the midst of the seven lampstands One like the Son of Man,
  clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band
  (Revelation 1:13)
  • the lampstands are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword
  (Revelation 1:16)
  • the stars are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• He who holds the seven stars in His right hand, who walks in the midst of the seven golden lampstands
  (Revelation 2:1)
  • the stars are not alone; the lampstands are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
  (Revelation 2:7)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
  (Revelation 2:11)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
  (Revelation 2:17)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
• (Revelation 2:29)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• He who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars
  (Revelation 3:1)
  • the spirits and the stars are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
• (Revelation 3:6)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
• (Revelation 3:13)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• the Spirit says to the churches
• (Revelation 3:22)
  • the churches are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?
• Seven lamps of fire burning before the throne
  (Revelation 4:5)
  • the lamps of fire are not alone
  • 7 + 1 = ?

 

[posthuman]

I'm not offended at all, but I notice you (intentionally?) skirted around something I mentioned in one of my posts.

Can you demonstrate that the week we observe today lines up with the Creation week? What if we're off by a day or two?

The fact is that no one can prove that the week we've got now is synchronized with the original Creation week, which means that any assertion that a CERTAIN day MUST be adhered to as the seventh day of worship is nonsense.

But feel free to correct me if you can somehow prove that the modern week lines up with Creation week.

that's an interesting point -- and i think we could only reconcile such a thing with the lunar calendar. if the lunar cycle begins at the beginning of the counting of days ((as the months and years in the Levitical calendar do)), we may be able to determine when the beginning of things is by the lunar 'clock' -- it has a definite start/stop point at new moon, the beginning of months.

that concept immediately brings up a couple of other questions tho -- is the 7-day cycle meant to be defined by the lunar calendar? the Levitical calendar is lunar. but the Levitical calendar doesn't presently coincide with the observed lunar month - instead of 30 day lunar cycles, we have 28 & change. and neither does the solar year coincide with the Levitical year - instead of 360 days we have 365 & change. that's an issue that has to be confronted: is the Levitical calendar wrong? why doesn't it match the natural 'clocks' of the sun & moon, that God ordained for the observation of time? have the natural 'clocks' changed? were they once 30/360 and the lunar & solar cycles in harmony? because they are not now. and if they changed, when? why? how? if they are meant to be signs to us, then what is the meaning of their present disharmony?

which brings us to an uncomfortable answer to reconciling the creation week with the modern calendar: we can assume that it's 7 day/night cycles according to what we observe by the sun ((setting aside the niggling points about what a 'day' was before the creation of the sun)). and we may be able to link it to the lunar cycle, which we can readily observe. but if the lunar month is not anymore what the lunar month once was, then we are left with a mystery: if our clocks are not keeping correct time, how can we know what the day or the hour are?

 

[posthuman]

I am unsure what you mean by the statement about "Judaizers" in the context of the topic. Can you clarify this for me?

see Colossians 2.

 

[ResidentAlien]

So, are you saying that only "Jews" kept Sabbath and no Gentiles did so? Please clarify.

Nah, I've clarified already. I have a feeling no amount of clarification would satisfy you anyway. You seem to thrive on argument and debate. I'm not into that.

Besides, the Bible doesn't tell us specifically which day is the Lord's Day so this could go on indefinitely.

 

[posthuman]

God rested "the" (definite article, specific) "seventh day"

in Genesis that is also a singular term.
God doesn't rest every 7th day --- on a 7th day, He Who rose on the 8th day said "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work"

the sabbath day was given with the manna in order to prove the unfaithfulness of Israel, Exodus 16:4 - it is a sign, a 'proof' that it is the LORD who sanctifies His people; not they themselves ((Exodus 20:20, Ezekiel 20:12))

these are uncomfortable truths for SDA, but they must be confronted.

 

[posthuman]

In Exodus (several thousand years later), God again, stated the 7th day and the week again.

​

And they journeyed from Elim, and all the congregation of the children of Israel came to the Wilderness of Sin, which is between Elim and Sinai, on the fifteenth day of the second month after they departed from the land of Egypt.​

(Exodus 16:1) ​

​

the first sabbath in scripture is the 7th day after this day -- Iyar 22.

if this aligns with the creation 'week' then it would mean Iyar 15 corresponds to 'day 1' of Genesis 1.

i immediately have questions:

• why isn't Rosh Hashanah on Iyar 15?
• is 1 Tishrei congruent to 15 Iyar modulo 7?

 

[posthuman]

History records that the Christians kept sabbath ever since in the same time, as the Jews since that time, even being spread around the globe.

erm, that is categorically false.

history records that Christians met on the 1st day of the week, since the beginning, not the 7th. there is a rich theological tradition among the early church fathers calling it the 8th day, and many extant texts from the early centuries of the church specifically dealing with why Christians do not keep sabbath and 100% differentiating the habits of the church from the habits of Judaism with regard to days.

for an example par-excellence, please see Justin Martyr's 'Dialogue with Trypho' written ~ AD 155-160

link to an English-language version of it:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/text/justinmartyr-dialoguetrypho.html

 

[Grandpa]

Acts 20:7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Luke 24:1-3
1 Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.

3 And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.


The first day of the week. The day the Lord Resurrected. That's the Day of the Lord.

 

[posthuman]

God even foretold that the same cycle is kept in the New Heavens and Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23).

we have all heard sabbathists argue endlessly for years.
literally no one here has never been confronted with such talk before.

therefore a more needful thing, if you actually believe Isaiah in the way you claim to, is this -
are you going to make a 'you must observe the new moon festival' thread?
or do you just throw this verse out there thoughtlessly?

 

[posthuman]

the same cycle is kept in the New Heavens and Earth (Isaiah 66:22-23)

i can't even count the number of times a sabbathist has come to the forums and shoved Isaiah 66:23 into a post as tho it were a proof of their beliefs.
but i can certainly count the number of times someone who cites this verse in such a context has ever started a conversation about how we all need to be observing the new moon: zero. not once. never.
to me this smacks of obvious disingenuous eisegesis.

 

[Heaven_Bound]

The Sabbath Day is a PAGAN Ritual for those trying to follow it!


2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.

3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

4 How he entered into the house of God, and did eat the shewbread, which was not lawful for him to eat, neither for them which were with him, but only for the priests?

5 Or have ye not read in the law, how that on the sabbath days the priests in the temple profane the sabbath, and are blameless?

6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

7 But if ye had known what this meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice, ye would not have condemned the guiltless.

8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Luke 6:2 And certain of the Pharisees said unto them, Why do ye that which is not lawful to do on the sabbath days?

Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

John 9:14 And it was the sabbath day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes.

 

[posthuman]

If "Muddying the waters" is the goal of some, it is not my goal, but rather my goal is to clarify, make known the truth, present documented evidence (and I have much more for the Christians from the time of the Apostles onward throughout history). I also have documentation on the Romans if you need that.

As for instance:

The Roman Historical record of their dealings with Jews:

http://thesourcehh.org/sabbath.htm#books

http://www.academia.edu/4686453/SABBATH_IN_THE_EAST

Romans:

S. Julii Frontini (c. AD 40 - AD 103), written in C. AD. 84, see - https://archive.org/details/libriquatuorstra00fronuoft

Libri Quator; Strategematicon; cum notis integris; Francisci Modii, Godescalci Stewechii, Petri Scriverii, & Samuelis Tennulii. His accedunt, cum P. Scriverii, tum aliorum Doctorum ineditae observationes. Curante Francisco Oudendorpio, Qui & suas adnotationes, variasque MStorum lectiones adjecit. Editio Altera, multo auctior & emendatior. Lugduni Batavorum, Apud Sam. et Joann. Luchtmans, MDCCLXXIX [1779].

"XVII. Divus Augustus Vespasianus Judaeos 54 Saturni die, quo 55 eis nefas est quidquam seriae rei agere, adortus superavit. ...

...54 Saturni die] Sic & Pompejus Hierosolyma expugnavit, quia Judaei nolebant se defendere Sabbato, Dione teste in pompejo. Sabbatum quia praecipua caeremonia colebant, etiam jejunio sacrasse [ut ait Justinus 1 [Page 178-179] XXXVI. C. 2.). ..." Page 178-179 - https://archive.org/stream/libriquat...e/178/mode/1up
https://archive.org/stream/libriquat...e/179/mode/1up

A Google Translated rendition:

""17. Augustus, Vespasian, the Jews on the day of Saturn, 54, 55 in which it is illegal for them to do anything serious matter, attacked them, and overcame them. ...

... Saturday, 54] Thus Pompey captured Jerusalem, because the Jews refused to defend himself on a Saturday, a witness in the Dio Pompejo. Sabbath worship ceremony for the chief, even fasting sacrasse [as the Justin 1 [Pages 178-179] 36. C. 2). ... ""

Cassius Dio (AD 155 – AD 235)

Dio's Roman History III

Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, III; London: William Heinemann; New York: The Macmillan CO. MCMXIV [1914].

Battle of c. 63 BC

"... [Page 142-144; Internally Page 125-127] Most of the city, to be sure, he took without any trouble, as he was received by the party of Hyrcanus; but the temple itself, which the other party had occupied, he captured only with difficulty. For it was on high ground and was fortified by a wall of its own, and if they had continued defending it on all days alike, he could not have got possession of it. As it was, they made an exception of what are called the days of Saturn, and by doing [Page 142-144; Internally Page 125-127; Greek text is inbetween; Page 126] no work at all on those days afforded the Romans an opportunity in this interval to batter down the wall. The latter, on learning of this superstitious awe of theirs, made no serious attempts the rest of the time, but on those days, when they came round in succession, assaulted most vigorously. Thus the defenders were captured on the day of Saturn, without making any defence, and all the wealth was plundered. The kingdom was given to Hyrcanus, and Aristobulus was carried away.

This was the course of events at that time in Palestine; for this is the name that has been given from of old to the whole country extending from Phoenicia to Egypt along the inner sea. They have also another name that they have acquired: the country has been named Judaea, and the people themselves Jews. I do not know how this title came to be given them, but it applies also to all the rest of mankind, although of alien race, who affect their customs. This class exists even among the Romans, and though often repressed has increased to a very great extent and has won its way to the right of freedom in its observances. They are distinguished from the rest of mankind in practically every detail of life, and especially by the fact that they do not honour any of the usual gods, but show extreme reverence for one particular divinity. They never had any statue of him even in Jerusalem itself, but believing him to be unnamable and invisible, they worship him in the most extravagant fashion on earth. They built to him a temple [Page 143-145; Internally Page 127-129; Greek text on Page 128] that was extremely large and beautiful, except in so far as it was open and roofless, 1 and likewise dedicated to him the day called the day of Saturn, on which, among many other most peculiar observances, they undertake no serious occupation. ..." [Pages 142-145; Internally Pages 125-129; Greek text is inbetween; Page 126,128] - https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi.../n141/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi.../n143/mode/1up

https://archive.org/stream/L053Cassi...y+of+Saturn%22

Dio's Roman History V

Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, V; London: William Heinemann LTD; Cambridge, Massachusetts Harvard University Press. MCMLV [1955].

Battle of c. 36 BC

"... [Page 398; Internally Page 387]The Jews, indeed, had done much injury to the Romans, for the race is very bitter when aroused to anger, but they suffered far more themselves. The first of them to be captured were those who were fighting for the precinct of their god, and then the rest on the day even then called the day of Saturn.1 And so excessive were they in their devotion to religion that the first set of prisoners, those who had been captured along with the temple, obtained leave from Sosius, when the day of Saturn came round again, and went up into the temple and there performed all the customary rites, together with the rest of the people. These people Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern ..." [Page 398; Internally Page 387] - https://archive.org/stream/L082Cassi.../n398/mode/1up

Dio's Roman History VIII

Dio's Roman History with an English Translation by Earnest Cary, Ph.D. on the basis of the version of Herbert Baldwin Foster, Ph.D. In Nine Volumes, VIII; London: William Heinemann; New York: G. P. Putnam's Sons. MCMXXV [1925].

Destruction of Jerusalem; AD 70. [even up to the time of Cassius Dio]

"... [Page 281; Internally 271] Thus was Jerusalem destroyed on the very day of Saturn, the day which even now the Jews reverence most. From that time forth it was ordered that the Jews who continued to observe their ancestral customs should pay and annual tribute of two denarii to Jupiter Capitolinus. ..." [Page 281; Internally Page 271] - https://archive.org/stream/L176Cassi.../n280/mode/1up

all this does is document that Jews who rejected the gospel and continued living under Moses have continued to keep the sabbath.
which is a fact no one questions, at all.

so i don't understand what your intent by this post is?

 

[posthuman]

all this does is document that Jews who rejected the gospel and continued living under Moses have continued to keep the sabbath.
which is a fact no one questions, at all.

so i don't understand what your intent by this post is?

@ChristianSubMissionary


@JStates point was to the question of whether we are on the same 7-day cycle as the children of Jacob were in Exodus 16. the root of any discrepancy there would go back to the diaspora, to the ordinance of the several Roman calendar systems, and to the Jews historical re-organizations of their own calendar, appointing 'extra month' of varying length of days to account for the disagreement between the natural world and the accounting of times per Torah.

his question goes to the present-day disharmony of the solar & lunar cycle and the incongruity of the Levitical/administrative 360-day year vs. the modern observation of a 365+ day solar orbit. it has nothing to do with 1st-century records of, yes, the Jews went on keeping sabbath - we all know that. it's not a point of contention.

if you would contend with him, what you need to address is the apparent entropic effect over time of God's appointed clocks, the sun and the moon. not Roman history of the customs of the people of God who pierced God.

 

[Blik]

God winks at peoples ignorance, and salvation isn't about being perfect at keeping a law. But love for God will motivate a true heart to obey God and honour His laws of love. Faith in Christ without works is dead.. So to say i love Jesus and disobey His commands continually is not true faith or love. Joh 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Jesus will do all to make up for our failings, but that does not mean we should continue in sin that grace may abound.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
God has commanded all to keep the Sabbath holy. It is our choice what we do with that?

Jesus was very clear about how we are to use the law and it is so simple the youngest child can know how. It is all captured in the word repent.