The Rapture
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Originally Posted by valiant
The Greek HAD no capital letters in those days. They are the translators.
And where is the great tribulation mentioned?
And where is the great tribulation mentioned?
LOL I meant in Daniel 9.
But Matthew 24 refers to 'a great tribulation' on the Jews.
And the reference in Rev 7 looks back to Rev 2.22, a different scenario altogether
actually all jews agree that it did happen in 70ad you can google judaism daniel 9:27 .......................
also you said "Once the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way and the church with Him, then that lawless one will be revealed, the antichrist." wow............. so literally Holy Spirit is taken out of the way how is it psosible?????????? God is taken out of the way because the church is taken in a secret rapture mentioned nowhere in the bible................ the only rapture passage is 1 thessalonians 4:16 and it says it happens when the Lord descends......... you can play word games say He doesnt touchdown but really it says descends............. with this system you would have atleast 3 resurrections its impossible to come to this conclusion by just reading the bible........... matthew 24:31 and 1 thessalonains 4:16 is even a cross reference in all bibles so any reader would match that up and probably end up being a post-trib premillennial without further investigation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i actually checked even the resurrection descriptions in 1 corinthians 15 match that when Jesus comes down thats when it happens and death is swalloed up in victory its so plain.........
also you said "Once the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way and the church with Him, then that lawless one will be revealed, the antichrist." wow............. so literally Holy Spirit is taken out of the way how is it psosible?????????? God is taken out of the way because the church is taken in a secret rapture mentioned nowhere in the bible................ the only rapture passage is 1 thessalonians 4:16 and it says it happens when the Lord descends......... you can play word games say He doesnt touchdown but really it says descends............. with this system you would have atleast 3 resurrections its impossible to come to this conclusion by just reading the bible........... matthew 24:31 and 1 thessalonains 4:16 is even a cross reference in all bibles so any reader would match that up and probably end up being a post-trib premillennial without further investigation!!!!!!!!!!!!!! i actually checked even the resurrection descriptions in 1 corinthians 15 match that when Jesus comes down thats when it happens and death is swalloed up in victory its so plain.........
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There is another compelling possibility which is more germane to 70 AD events, the subject of 2 Thes 1-2. The Man of Sin I believe is Flavius Titus. It was Titus who made Jerusalem desolate. It was Titus who completely and utter destroyed Jerusalem and murdered innocent Jews by the tens of thousands. It was Titus who was sacrificed to and worshiped by his troops upon entering the Temple.
Under Roman edict at the time, Caesars were to be acknowledge and worshiped as God. Anyone who disputed this "fact" would be killed (beheaded if Roman, crucified if a foreigner). Remember the trick the Pharisees tried to trap Jesus with and Jesus' response?
17 Tell us, therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” 18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, “Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?19 Show Me the tax money.” So they brought Him a denarius. 20 And He said to them, “Whose image and inscription is this?” 21 They said to Him, “Caesar’s.” And He said to them, “Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s.”
IMAGE??? Was Caesar's image to be worshiped and/or honored? Can anyone buy or sell without Roman coins in those days? I digress...
If Titus was the Man of Sin, the one restraining him or preventing him was his father, Vespasian. It wasn't until Vespasian was "taken out of the way" (returned to Rome to replace Nero who killed himself) that Titus was sent to conquer Jerusalem. So we have the "god" Vespasian who was the "father" to the son, the Man of Sin - Titus. Thus we have polar opposites to God the real father and His Son Jesus. Jesus came to save, Titus, the destroyer came to destroy.
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Can you name another nation where 93% of its population was killed by famine, disease, by sword and by wild animals (in the Colosseum where the remaining 7% were taken)? Can you name another nation where every single stone was removed from the other until you couldn't tell if their capitol city was ever there? You do realize that Jerusalem was destroyed first by fire, right? How does Daniel say the destruction will happen? Even until the consummation (fire), which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate (those in Jerusalem).”
What country is in focus in Mat 24:1-2? What area were the people told to flee? 16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.
@PlainWord
It is just pure biblical illiteracy with them
Deuteronomy 28
49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God;
59 Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
It is just pure biblical illiteracy with them
Deuteronomy 28
49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50 A nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51 And he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, The Lord Thy God;
59 Then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 And thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
Man! You guys just don't quit with the false teachings do ya, prospective or otherwise?! You acknowledge everything but the truth. And the truth is that, this man of sin, the antichrist, is a future king. He is one who belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction. He will be empowered by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet. Regarding the coming ruler:
"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." (Rev.13:7-8)
If Titus was the man of lawlessness, that anitchirst, when did he have authority over every tribe and people and language and nation? When did all who dwell on the earth worship him?
"When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth."
If Titus was thee antichrist, that man of lawlessness, the beast, that angel of the Abyss, he would have had to have come up from the Abyss and killed those two witnesses and left there bodies in the streets of Jerusalem with them resurrecting 3 1/2 days latter. When did that happen?!
The people of the world will not allow them to be buried because of all the plagues that they will have brought upon the earth. When did the world see those plagues take place?!
"And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing."
There is One who is holding back the full force of sin and the man of sin so that he can be revealed at the proper time. By making the one who is restraining sin and the man of sin as being Vaspasian and his son Titus as the man of lawlessness, you have evil restraining evil. Yet the gist of the scripture is good restraining sin and that man of sin.
When did Jesus every destroy Titus by the brightness of his coming?
Regarding end-time events, you guys might want to consider the truth for once. Because what you have been teaching is false.
When you see believers all over the world missing from the earth and then see some political figure establish a seven year agreement with Israel, allowing her to build her temple, then at that time you will know that what we have been proclaiming to you was/is the truth. From the time that he makes that seven year agreement, you can then know that 3 1/2 years later that he is going to break it and set up that abomination. From the time that he establishes that seven years, you will begin to see the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place in the exact order that they are listed in Revelation. And you will also see the two witnesses begin their time of prophecy, as well as the plagues that they begin to bring upon the earth.
These are all future events and will take place just as it is written.
"It was also given to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them, and authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation was given to him. All who dwell on the earth will worship him, everyone whose name has not been written from the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who has been slain." (Rev.13:7-8)
If Titus was the man of lawlessness, that anitchirst, when did he have authority over every tribe and people and language and nation? When did all who dwell on the earth worship him?
"When they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. Those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and celebrate; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth."
If Titus was thee antichrist, that man of lawlessness, the beast, that angel of the Abyss, he would have had to have come up from the Abyss and killed those two witnesses and left there bodies in the streets of Jerusalem with them resurrecting 3 1/2 days latter. When did that happen?!
The people of the world will not allow them to be buried because of all the plagues that they will have brought upon the earth. When did the world see those plagues take place?!
"And now you know what is holding him back, so that he may be revealed at the proper time. For the secret power of lawlessness is already at work; but the one who now holds it back will continue to do so till he is taken out of the way. And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing."
There is One who is holding back the full force of sin and the man of sin so that he can be revealed at the proper time. By making the one who is restraining sin and the man of sin as being Vaspasian and his son Titus as the man of lawlessness, you have evil restraining evil. Yet the gist of the scripture is good restraining sin and that man of sin.
When did Jesus every destroy Titus by the brightness of his coming?
Regarding end-time events, you guys might want to consider the truth for once. Because what you have been teaching is false.
When you see believers all over the world missing from the earth and then see some political figure establish a seven year agreement with Israel, allowing her to build her temple, then at that time you will know that what we have been proclaiming to you was/is the truth. From the time that he makes that seven year agreement, you can then know that 3 1/2 years later that he is going to break it and set up that abomination. From the time that he establishes that seven years, you will begin to see the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments taking place in the exact order that they are listed in Revelation. And you will also see the two witnesses begin their time of prophecy, as well as the plagues that they begin to bring upon the earth.
These are all future events and will take place just as it is written.
could someone please answer my simple question: why do jews agree that daniel 9:27 was fulfilled at 70ad but christians dont agree with it?????? jesus said this generation and that generation saw the temple destroyed so im sure many people thought it was that which was spoken of by daniel the prophet, just like the jews say today and have said for centuries!!!!!!!!! even the gentile church fathers like justin martyr say dan 9:27 was fulfilled at 70ad...............
so: why the 70ad was not the abomination of desolation?????????? did jesus prophecy of destruction of the temple or not????????
so: why the 70ad was not the abomination of desolation?????????? did jesus prophecy of destruction of the temple or not????????
Yes, he did prophecy of the destruction of the temple Mz
Yes, AD70 was the 2nd AoD - the first was Antiochus Epiphanes
Why do Jews agree with it but Christians not? I am guessing because the Jews had first hand experience which has been communicated orally for centuries. These things were not fun to live through. Epiphanes had several Jews fried to death in a giant pan for observing Mosaic Law.
Modern day Christians eat so much corn syrup garbage they can barely remember two days ago, let alone centuries back.
The difficulty is this however: If 70A.D. was THE abomination of desolation then we should be past the millennial kingdom and in New Jerusalem already.
As for what Jews say, I wouldn't put too much value on the judaism of TODAY knowing that they reject Christ, so obviously they wouldn't allow for any interpretations that make Jesus the Messiah, that is why they go on and on about Isaiah 7:14 etc...
Remember the talmud was written after the death of Jesus.
Also PS: I do NOT hate Jews, quite the opposite as Paul said I would love for my brethren according to the flesh to receive the truth of Christ, but as Paul declares they are blinded until the fullness of the gentiles.
If 70A.D. was the desolation why are we still here? We should be in eternity, so obviously the third temple is happening, no?
As for what Jews say, I wouldn't put too much value on the judaism of TODAY knowing that they reject Christ, so obviously they wouldn't allow for any interpretations that make Jesus the Messiah, that is why they go on and on about Isaiah 7:14 etc...
Remember the talmud was written after the death of Jesus.
Also PS: I do NOT hate Jews, quite the opposite as Paul said I would love for my brethren according to the flesh to receive the truth of Christ, but as Paul declares they are blinded until the fullness of the gentiles.
If 70A.D. was the desolation why are we still here? We should be in eternity, so obviously the third temple is happening, no?
You mean the same Jews who didn't and still don't recognize Jesus as their Messiah? By not believing in Jesus as the Christ, they do not consider the NT as being the word of God. When Jesus said that they, that generation of Israel, did not recognize the time of their visitation, He was referring to the fact that, if they had know the scriptures written in Daniel regarding the seventy sevens that were decreed upon Israel and Jerusalem, they could have known the time of their Messiah's arrival. All they had to do is count from when the decree was issued to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, which took place with Nehemiah and King Artaxerxes in approx. 446 BC and just added on 62 seven year periods onto the 7 seven year periods, equaling 69 seven year periods, which is when the Messiah would be cut off/crucified and they would have known that Jesus was their Messiah.
The religious Jews of that time would have also known that Jesus was their Messiah when He rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey, fulfilling the following prophecy:
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
Not to mention all of the miraculous signs that Jesus performed. And yet they still did not believe He was the Messiah.
Yes, Jesus did foretell the destruction of the temple. The disciples question was, "When will this happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Jesus had already told them about the destruction of the temple and therefore his answer was focused on the signs leading up to his return which leads to the end of the age.
In order to be able to claim fulfillment of a prophecy, it would have had to have taken place. That said, no seven year agreement was made with Israel at that time, no abomination has been set up which is what causes Israel to flee from Jerusalem (desolation) where at which time they will be cared for by God out in the wilderness for that 1260, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, with the Lord returning to the earth to end the age at the end of that 3 1/2 years. Since there has been no fulfillment of these things from the time that Jesus quoted Daniel in Matt.24:15 regarding the abomination being set up, then because it is the word of God, it must still take place and therefore is still future.
God put a hold on that last seven to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
The religious Jews of that time would have also known that Jesus was their Messiah when He rode into Jerusalem on the foal of a donkey, fulfilling the following prophecy:
"Rejoice greatly, Daughter Zion! Shout, Daughter Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and victorious, lowly and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey."
Not to mention all of the miraculous signs that Jesus performed. And yet they still did not believe He was the Messiah.
Yes, Jesus did foretell the destruction of the temple. The disciples question was, "When will this happen and what will be the sign of your coming and the end of the age. Jesus had already told them about the destruction of the temple and therefore his answer was focused on the signs leading up to his return which leads to the end of the age.
In order to be able to claim fulfillment of a prophecy, it would have had to have taken place. That said, no seven year agreement was made with Israel at that time, no abomination has been set up which is what causes Israel to flee from Jerusalem (desolation) where at which time they will be cared for by God out in the wilderness for that 1260, which is that last 3 1/2 years of that seven year period, with the Lord returning to the earth to end the age at the end of that 3 1/2 years. Since there has been no fulfillment of these things from the time that Jesus quoted Daniel in Matt.24:15 regarding the abomination being set up, then because it is the word of God, it must still take place and therefore is still future.
God put a hold on that last seven to be fulfilled in conjunction with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age.
No, it isn't abcdef! If that were true, then Israel would be allowed up on the temple mount to worship, but they are not. You have no idea what you are talking about. Currently, no jew is allowed to worship on the temple mount. If Israel was in control of the temple mount do you actually believe that the Dome of the Rock would still be there, which is Islam's worship center?
As I said, when the six day war took place, Moshe Dayan relinquished control of the temple mount to Islam/Palistine, which is why the Jewish temple has not yet been built.
As I said, when the six day war took place, Moshe Dayan relinquished control of the temple mount to Islam/Palistine, which is why the Jewish temple has not yet been built.
Getting away from all the wafflers Muzungu, all you need is a proper understanding of Hebrew.
Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate
Jesus told the Jews that their House was left desolate.
Even if they do not believe it, it is do not make it any less true. The fact is though, that once your country has been razed to the ground, the majority of your countrymen unceremoniously slaughtered, and the few remaining hostages are sent abroad as slaves, even if you are a total cretin, even if you vigorously deny Christ, you still understand that a desolating event has occurred. Now when you add in that the focal point of your temple system has been torched and gutted, and there's nary a priest in sight, you understand that An Abomination has also taken place.
Practicing Orthodox Jews believe the Bible, they just don't have spiritual eyes to see Jesus. But they are in fact much more likely to have a better handle on Daniel, because they will understand Hebrew much better than Amerkins and the rest of us..
Matthew 23:38
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate
Jesus told the Jews that their House was left desolate.
Even if they do not believe it, it is do not make it any less true. The fact is though, that once your country has been razed to the ground, the majority of your countrymen unceremoniously slaughtered, and the few remaining hostages are sent abroad as slaves, even if you are a total cretin, even if you vigorously deny Christ, you still understand that a desolating event has occurred. Now when you add in that the focal point of your temple system has been torched and gutted, and there's nary a priest in sight, you understand that An Abomination has also taken place.
Practicing Orthodox Jews believe the Bible, they just don't have spiritual eyes to see Jesus. But they are in fact much more likely to have a better handle on Daniel, because they will understand Hebrew much better than Amerkins and the rest of us..
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There may be a future fulfillment of the abomination of desolation, however Luke 21 proves that the AofB described in Matt 24 and Mark 13 was in fact the Roman destruction of the Jewish Temple and Judea. When Luke described the AofB described in Matt and Mark, Luke clearly described the Roman destruction of Judea.