The Tribulation and the Church, WHEN?

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bluto

Senior Member
Aug 4, 2016
1,457
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#1
The following is a youtube video by the late Dr.Walter Martin. It's about 50 minutes long and extremely instructive regarding the events as to when the Great Tribulation will take place. Btw, for those of you who do not know who Dr. Walter Martin is just google his name. You might also know that he is the author of the book "Kingdom of the Cults.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
2,815
588
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#2
My understanding is that [the phrase] "the GREAT tribulation" refers to ONLY the SECOND HALF of the [future] 7-yr trib (consisting of 1260 days). Does he acknowledge same, or is he calling the ENTIRE 7-yr period "the GREAT tribulation," as many [mistakenly] do? Just wondering. Thanks. :)
 

azamzimtoti

Well-known member
Apr 3, 2019
572
274
63
#3
Great Trib was in 1st century AD, Luke's account when tied to Matthew's tells you the time (when Jerusalem was surrounded by armies) they were to flee:

(Luke 21:20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. )

(Luke 21:21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city )

----------------------------------------

(Mat 24:16 then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains. )

(Mat 24:21 “For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will. )

Matt and Luke are speaking of the same time and events in the 1st century.
 

GaryA

Active member
Aug 10, 2019
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#4
The truth about the 'Great Tribulation' is between these two extremes.

It started in 70 A.D. -- we are in it now -- it will end at some point in time in the future.
 

TheDivineWatermark

Well-known member
Aug 3, 2018
2,815
588
113
#5
Revelation 1:1 says, "[The] Revelation of Jesus Christ, which GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus], TO SHEW UNTO His servants [comp. 7:3] things which must come to pass [comp. 1:19c/4:1--the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; not adverbs like "quickly" or "immediately" or "soon"!]…"

(This is referring to the specific, future, limited time period which leads UP TO His Second Coming to the earth; and "the GREAT tribulation" is exactly half of that and lasts 1260 days [i.e. the LAST HALF])
 

Noose

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2016
4,072
705
113
#6
The truth about the 'Great Tribulation' is between these two extremes.

It started in 70 A.D. -- we are in it now -- it will end at some point in time in the future.
Indeed, we are deep into the great tribulation, we are almost done.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,166
556
113
#7
The truth about the 'Great Tribulation' is between these two extremes.

It started in 70 A.D. -- we are in it now -- it will end at some point in time in the future.
Tribulation is only 7 years

If It is start in 70 AD, than It has been 1949 years and we still able to buy and sale. In the tribulation only the one that take the mark of the beast able to buy and sale
 

GaryA

Active member
Aug 10, 2019
329
99
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mywebsite.us
#8
Tribulation is only 7 years

If It is start in 70 AD, than It has been 1949 years and we still able to buy and sale. In the tribulation only the one that take the mark of the beast able to buy and sale
It's not over yet...
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,021
171
63
#9
Great Trib was in 1st century AD...
I can see you got your ability to divide eschatology truth (especially the 2nd Coming of Christ and events concerning it) out of a lucky bag!
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,997
309
83
#11
The great tribulation is the last half of the 7 years period.

It did not happen in the 1st century.

The Bible says that Israel as a nation has 70 weeks to make an end of sins, bring in everlasting righteousness, and anoint the most holy who is Jesus.

They have not done that yet so the 70 weeks cannot be over.

69 weeks have passed with one more week to go which is the time that God causes all people that do not love Him to follow the beast kingdom, and brings Israel to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The Bible says that Israel is blinded in part, for they acknowledge the Old Testament but not the New for the majority, until the fulness of the Gentiles come in, when salvation is no longer available to them, and so all Israel shall be saved.

The disciples asked Jesus if He would restore the kingdom to them at that time, and He said the Father will do it in His time, but do not worry about it and go preach the Gospel.

God shall make a full end of all Gentile nations, but not make a full end of Israel although Israel will not be altogether wholly unpunished.

God will bring the whole house of Jacob, all 12 tribes, back to the nation of Israel, and leave none of them in the nations anymore, and they shall know the LORD their God from that time forward, and He will not hide His face from them anymore.

God said He is going to gather all nations together against Israel to battle, and then fight against those nations as He did in the day of battle, and defeat the world and save Israel.

And at that time the LORD shall be King over all the earth, and there shall be one LORD and His name one, and the heathen that God spared at the battle of Armageddon have to go up year after year to Jerusalem and worship the LORD, and keep the feast of tabernacles to be right with God.

God warns the saints of the new age movement, and their false interpretation of the Bible based on the occult, and evolution, and people can still evolve to be greater and spiritual, and Jesus is not Lord and Savior, but a good teacher, and love, and the Christ conscience came upon the man Jesus, and He evolved to be an ascended master, and avatar, and do not acknowledge a personal God, but honor the God of forces, or the power of nature as their higher power, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher in the evolutionary process.

When they say Peace and safety when the nations come together they will try to establish peace on earth, and sudden destruction comes upon them and they shall not escape.

Which they will forbid to marry for a man and a woman for population reduction, and command to abstain from meats, be a vegan for they are in to nature.

Which the time will come the world will not endure the truth of the Bible but want to hear it according to the new age movement, power through nature to evolve, and evolution is religion, and their spirituality, which they interpret all religions by evolution, and the occult, and they will stop the preaching of anything contrary to that which will be a hate crime, and punishable in the international criminal court system.

The New Age Christ will establish peace in the Middle East, and it will pave the way for all Jews to go to Israel, for the Gentile nations will cause them to go to Israel, and the man of sin wants them all back on their land, but God means it for good towards the Jews.

The Jews will rebuild their temple, and go back to animal sacrifices, with no hassle from the Palestinians, and the Jews will split Jerusalem with the Palestinians.

The Gentile nations will come together and say Peace and safety as they try to establish peace on earth.

The 7 years period will begin, which they believe the New Age Christ will not help them until the nations come together as one to try to establish peace on earth, but it is a deception of the devil to try to deceive the world to follow the beast, and the new age movement gives heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Paul said the saints cannot be gathered unto Christ until there is a falling away first, which is the condition of the world in response to the Gospel, and the man of sin steps in to their temple and claims to be God.

For the first three and one half years repentance and salvation are still available to the world, so the resurrection will not happen yet, and the saints will remain on earth.

The world will be split in to ten sections, the ten horn kingdom, with a leader in each section, which America, Canada, and Mexico will be one nation, which concerning the wall at the border of America and Mexico the solution is to take away the border, problem solved for the are all one now, and the same at Canada and America.

The Arab nations governments will come together with all the nations, but the people of those nations will rebel saying it is an insult to Allah for they are trying to hinder them from extending their religion, and Islam and the world will clash.

Which they will pluck up 3 horns by the roots, which covers the Arab nations, which the Bible describes nuclear weapons, the 6th trumpet, and that war is so terrible as to cause one third of the world to perish, which is mostly in the Arab nations.

The ten horn kingdom failed at obtaining peace, and the world will turn to the New Age Christ as the solution to have peace on earth, and the ten horns hand their power over to him, and he gets control of the world.

Which the 6 trumpets are warnings to the world to repent of their sins, and turn to God, but after the 6th trumpet they do not, so God gives them the man of sin to rule over them.

An example is WW1, did not turn to God, but set up League of Nations, WW2, did not turn to God, but set up United Nations, and that pattern will continue of the world trying to achieve peace by their own effort, and slowly cutting God out of the picture until the 6th trumpet WW3, Islam against the world.

Continued,
 

MattforJesus

Senior Member
Apr 15, 2017
1,997
309
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#12
Continued,

The New Age Christ will step in to the Jews temple and tell them to stop animal sacrifices, and he is their God and Messiah.

He will address the world that he evolved through the power of nature for the Christ conscience came upon him, and the false prophet will do miracles in the sight of people to convince the world that the beast did receive power through nature, and shared this power with the false prophet, and will share this power with all who follow the beast.

Which Jesus said the lying wonders will appear so real that it would deceive the elect if it were possible, but of course it is not possible for they know it is not true.

When the world takes the mark of the beast then repentance and salvation are no longer available to the world, and the fulness of the Gentiles have come in, which the mark is the microchip linked to satellite, which the beast's agenda is there is no personal God to help mankind, but they can achieve peace on earth by their own efforts, and technology.

Which they will know of everyone's location on earth, and if a crime happens they will know how who was in the area, and how close they were to the crime scene, and can find lost children.

Which Bill Clinton said people that get guns should have a chip, and the guns compatible, so only the person that owns the gun can fire the gun, and Donald Trump said that if they had a device for people on temporary visas 911 could of been avoided.

During the last three and one half years God will send Israel 2 witnesses to turn them to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah, and at the end of that time Israel as a nation will be in the truth, and the 70 weeks fulfilled.

When the man of sin claims to be God then the saints can be gathered unto Christ, but the Bible says that he shall make war against the saints and prevail against them, and they shall be given in to his hands for three and one half years, and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, the Father, and have put down all rule, authority, and power.

That is why it is the greatest persecution ever against the truth for it is on a world wide scale, both Jew and Gentile saints being persecuted.

But the Bible says in Revelation 12 that Israel is protected from from physical attack for the 7 years period, for God has the plan to turn them to the truth, and restore the kingdom to them in the millennial reign of Christ.

So this persecution has to be world wide, and at the beginning of the last three and one half years the 2 witnesses only started witnessing to Israel so they are still blinded in part, so the persecution cannot be against Israel but against the world both Jew and Gentile.

There is no pre- 7 years resurrection of the saints for repentance and salvation is still available to the world for the first three and one half years, and the beast has power to rule for the last three and one half years, which this power can only come from God, and if He is allowing the beast to rule then He will not go against the world until the 7 years period is over.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period, and the 7 trumpets are warnings to the world to get right with God.

At the end of the 7 years period the saints that remain will be caught up to Jesus, and then the wrath of God will be poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon, and the LORD my God shall come and all the saints will thee, and Jesus will come back with the saints, and defeat the world, and save Israel, and so all Israel shall be saved.

And then Jesus and the saints will rule over one sixth of the world that God spared.

Which Jesus said until heaven and earth pass away not one tittle or jot shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled, which Jesus was a sinless man, and had to fulfill all the roles of Israel, king, prophet, high priest, saint, temple, sacrifice, and whatever else He had to fulfill.

But He has not fulfilled the role of perfect king on earth, and it has to be done on earth for it to be effective, and He will do that in the millennial reign.

And then when it is over heaven and earth shall pass, and there will be a new heaven and earth wherein dwells righteousness where sin has never been and sin will never be, and rebellion will never come up again, and the former earth shall not be remembered, nor come to mind, for it is associated with sin and rebellion, and the angels and saints will remember nothing prior to the New Jerusalem, but will feel as if they were always there and nowhere else.

The tribulation is the last three and one half years, and is the greatest persecution against the truth in the history of the Church for it is on a world wide scale.

The tribulation did not happen in the first century, and how can that tiny incident be the greatest persecution ever.

The first attack on Jerusalem by the Roman Empire because they rejected Jesus so God caused them to be scattered in the nations.

The second attack on Jerusalem by the world because they accepted Jesus and He saves them from the world.
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,888
928
113
#13
Tribulation is only 7 years

If It is start in 70 AD, than It has been 1949 years and we still able to buy and sale. In the tribulation only the one that take the mark of the beast able to buy and sale
The great tribulation began when Christ said.... "it is finished" (the end of the matter) .The time of reformation had come. The temple that was used temporally as a parable until the time of reformation lost its temporal use. The Holy Spirit was taking back what he gave over to the faithless Jews as that which they should not sought after. They became jealous of the surrounding pagan nations that did walk by sight ...out of sight out of mind. They refused to walk by faith and serve a King not seen. God told Samuel the prophet. . its not Samuel seen they reject as King but Himself the King of kings .

It had now become the place of the abomination of desecration . The believer had become the temple .having the power of God in these earthen vessels of death .The temple as to its designed use was destroyed by Christ's finished work. Not 70 ad when some of the walls fell down . The warning was not a sign and wonder that needed to be fulfilled by walking by sight it There is a portion of the wall still there that some cry out to. I sure some have some brick dust hid away .

Not one brick left upon another is simply a metaphor . Again not a sign as a wonder. We walk by faith the unseen eternal .The Holy place of God

We walk by faith not by sight as during the times there were Kings in Israel Our King has come when he said it is finished then it was completed.Again no 70 years later waiting for bricks to fall.

The Amil position used by most reformers works the best when trying to understand the signified language that God uses in parable .
We can see that in the opening statement .Not only inspired but signified the language of parables. hiding the unseen understanding form those who do walk by sight

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:

The 20/20 prescription for rightly dividing parables

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
 

Jackson123

Senior Member
Feb 6, 2014
7,166
556
113
#14
The great tribulation began when Christ said.... "it is finished" (the end of the matter) .The time of reformation had come. The temple that was used temporally as a parable until the time of reformation lost its temporal use. The Holy Spirit was taking back what he gave over to the faithless Jews as that which they should not sought after. They became jealous of the surrounding pagan nations that did walk by sight ...out of sight out of mind. They refused to walk by faith and serve a King not seen. God told Samuel the prophet. . its not Samuel seen they reject as King but Himself the King of kings .

It had now become the place of the abomination of desecration . The believer had become the temple .having the power of God in these earthen vessels of death .The temple as to its designed use was destroyed by Christ's finished work. Not 70 ad when some of the walls fell down . The warning was not a sign and wonder that needed to be fulfilled by walking by sight it There is a portion of the wall still there that some cry out to. I sure some have some brick dust hid away .

Not one brick left upon another is simply a metaphor . Again not a sign as a wonder. We walk by faith the unseen eternal .The Holy place of God

We walk by faith not by sight as during the times there were Kings in Israel Our King has come when he said it is finished then it was completed.Again no 70 years later waiting for bricks to fall.

The Amil position used by most reformers works the best when trying to understand the signified language that God uses in parable .
We can see that in the opening statement .Not only inspired but signified the language of parables. hiding the unseen understanding form those who do walk by sight

Revelation 1 King James Version (KJV) The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and "signified it" by his angel unto his servant John:


The 20/20 prescription for rightly dividing parables

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The bible say the first beast rule for 1260 days and second beast for 1260 days
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,888
928
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#15
The bible say the first beast rule for 1260 days and second beast for 1260 days

The "last day" used six times in the book of John. The end of time.. . . last season, end of the world . The bringing in of the new heavens and earth. Not a reconditioned updated model.

The hour and day no man knows .He will come on the last day... the end of the tribulation as the wrath of God being revealed from his unseen kingdom of heaven. No tribulation in our new incorruptible bodies of eternal life. God will wipe away all the tears .

Like a thief in the night (unknown) representing by the words thousand years .The Sun and the moon have lost there purpose as temporal time keepers of corruption.

Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

No temple as a abomination of desecration. No need for the count down. . . clock of corruption.. "Sun and Moon"

No more night used to represent evil

Revelation21: 22-25 And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it. And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
 

GaryA

Active member
Aug 10, 2019
329
99
28
mywebsite.us
#16
I can see you got your ability to divide eschatology truth (especially the 2nd Coming of Christ and events concerning it) out of a lucky bag!
Hey --- by any chance is a 'lucky bag' the UK the equivalent of a 'cracker jack box' in the USA?

:unsure:
;)
 
H

Hevosmies358

Guest
#17
The truth about the 'Great Tribulation' is between these two extremes.

It started in 70 A.D. -- we are in it now -- it will end at some point in time in the future.
Aiight so, its gonna be a time such as has not been since the beginning of the world nor shall ever be..... thats what Jesus said, and its lasted for ..... quite a long time?

We've had some GOOD TIMES and some BAD TIMES during this 2000y history. This aint the great tribulation yet, dont fool yourselves!
 

garee

Senior Member
Mar 28, 2016
10,888
928
113
#18
Aiight so, its gonna be a time such as has not been since the beginning of the world nor shall ever be..... thats what Jesus said, and its lasted for ..... quite a long time?

We've had some GOOD TIMES and some BAD TIMES during this 2000y history. This aint the great tribulation yet, dont fool yourselves!
The time of tribulation was directed at the Jews that were used to represent mankind not to represent their flesh as if that which is corrupted was a source of faith (unseen) The work of the Spirit of Christ. It is the time of Jacob's trouble . Jacob (deceiver) as under the influence of the god of this world was used as type as a metaphors in parables . . . .to represent un belief not faith alone as it is written . Outward Jew according to the flesh. . . inward Jew according the Spirit of Christ that dwelt in them. described as the new temple of God. We are his temple. His power in these earthen vessel of death (no power). Him working in us to both will and perform his good pleasure.

The Jews that were trusting in their flesh as a sign to themselves. . . comparing themselves.( flesh) to themselves And not exclusively as it is written lost that hiding place .The moment Jesus said it is finished . The time of reformation had come .The veil that was used to cover a Holy unseen place was a shadow of the true glory as a representative glory it covering 70 foot high had been torn from the top to the bottom . No where for the unbelieving Jew to hide. Christ is our hiding place..

The temporal use of the Temple lost it hiding ability it became the abomination of desecration.

When Jesus walked out in Mathew 24 it was a sign that he would never again give over a faithless people to set up a pagan form of government in respect to a temple. . . the abomination of desecration. They wanted him in that section Mathew 24 to return and look. . . like he did not see or again like. Are you blind, take another look. Not realizing he had part in the original design the design he created when he first gave them over to sin against Him . One glance is all that was needed .He knew its purpose had come to a end time had run out. . The last days began

Matthew 24 King James Version (KJV) And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

That holy Place of God's unseen glory will be on display the last day.

Revelation 21:22-24 King James Version (KJV) And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof. And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

Many today suffer the same faithless tribulation looking for God to become a man. It was and remain a tribulation for the Jew the greatest possibly like never before or ever again (one demonstration). . . .a false hope . Many tring to invent a way to become a Jew.
 

Absolutely

Well-known member
Jul 23, 2018
2,658
667
113
#19
Tribulation is only 7 years

If It is start in 70 AD, than It has been 1949 years and we still able to buy and sale. In the tribulation only the one that take the mark of the beast able to buy and sale
And we missed the 2 witnesses and the ac himself.
This could get real good if the lake of fire is history also
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
8,408
948
113
#20
Tribulation is only 7 years

If It is start in 70 AD, than It has been 1949 years and we still able to buy and sale. In the tribulation only the one that take the mark of the beast able to buy and sale
Very good point Jackson,

In fact, in addition to missing the 2 witnesses and the ac and his mark, we would have also missed the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, which is the coming wrath of God, the worst time in the history of the world. To my knowledge, there is no record of the oceans and fresh water already having been turned into literal blood. And when was a third of the earth burned up and a third of the creatures in the sea killed? What happened to the greatest earthquake to hit the earth where the cities of the nations collapse?