The truth behind the Law

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graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
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Why do we still squabble today after thousands of years regarding the law ?
Because people do not understand or accept that GOD divided the Commandments, separating spiritual observance from carnal works.
Personally I think it would help our understanding if we referred to them separately as the
Commandments of God and
the law of Moses.
and not speak of LAW as if it was all one and the same. Lets 'put difference between what is holy/spiritual and what is carnal/physical' Lev 10v10. Lets do what scripture says !
Except the Bible disagrees with you!
Wanna be a law-keeper - go and read Galatians.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
You do know that when people wish away the Law, they hold on it anyway? Let me explain.
1 When asked if Tithe is to done, the answer is almost always yes.
2 When asked if perverted sex acts are wrong, again the answer is YES
If asked if it is ok to lie, the answer is NO
This list can get rather long, and I am sure they will find some way around this, if pined down on it. Though most will change it back on you in some way, with Laws that have no hold on you. Funny how they will fight so long and hard to show you wrong, when they follow the same Laws.
I agree with you ! that is why I suggest we stay with the Commandments of God rather than the Com given through Moses. ALL 10 given by GOD (Ex 20; Deut 5) are appliccable to ALL men at ALL times and need no sifting through as being only for one or another as is the case with Moses, too many to be kept. That is the reason they were separated from the 10. What do you think ?
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
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Except the Bible disagrees with you!
Wanna be a law-keeper - go and read Galatians.
Depends what you call law.
I only want to keep the Commandments of God Jesus also kept. I'm not talking of the law of Moses which were temporary - but the Commandments of GOD spiritual and eternal loving God and neighbour. Do you have a problem with those ?
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
Depends what you call law.
I only want to keep the Commandments of God Jesus also kept. I'm not talking of the law of Moses which were temporary - but the Commandments of GOD spiritual and eternal loving God and neighbour. Do you have a problem with those ?
Yes, if you believe that keeping them is required for salvation.
The New Covenant, through the blood of Jesus Christ, has fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law.
Your desire to pick and choose what you want does not change this.
 

gotime

Senior Member
Mar 3, 2011
3,537
88
48
I will be one to say that the Law is of the spirit. As it is meant to show how to live a life that is shall we say, spiritual clean. It has some to do with the acts yes, yet in the end, it is more about our relationship with HaShem. As that is not a physical thing, the law really can't help in this if it is only physical.
The Sabbath , was, is, and will remain, a part of the law. If one wishes to follow it may HaShem bless them, and keep them grounded.
Your reasoning is clear, and based on solid logic. The Sabbath was given to man, from the days of creation. What we must understand is that the Sabbath was made for Man, not man for the Sabbath.



I think you will find that folks that don't keep Shabbot, (Sabbath) will do their best to push o you what they think you need to follow. Rather than just answering question, and letting You work out your salvation between HaShem and your self. As you can tell if you have rad this thread, many seem to act out of what seems to be hatred, or fair. I can only it seems that way, as I can't see their hearts. Though like you, I have wanted to have a nice respectful diolog with someone that follows the Sabbath is not a day. I find it odd, that something that has been changed by man and not HaShem can become so loved, and what HaShem told us, so hatted.



When the Law was given, one finds that it reads as though it was meant to be clear. With all the divisions, and in some cases, sub-divisions,. HaShem went to great length to make it clear as a bell. You will find many in this world only wish to push their ideas and beliefs on others. All the time saying they are not. Yet when push comes to shove, they turn the same old tactics that were aimed at Yeshua. Ask something that is meant for only one thing, to discredit the one you are asking. They place i a way that if you answer one why they jump up and say got you. If you answer it another, same thing.
I am not going to say that everyone does this. Their really are some good people on here, that are simply looking to make clear what you are asking or saying. As you wil find in my post answering this same thing in the tread on the Sabbath, I am not here to change anyone. Your salvation is between you and HaShem. I can do nothing about what you think or do, I can only try to understand it.
Sorry seen that rabbit had to chase it. Back on track now.
What you rd in Paul is right, the law is to point us to salvation. It is the mark we are to shoot for. No one can live it out in their life to the letter, that is what Salvation through Yeshua is for. All the Law can do is point out our wrongs, and show us where we to work to improve. Will I call the Spiritual? YES with out any second thought. If it was not, then it would have way to help us in our spiritual walk with HaShem. Is it also literal? Yes, in that one should do their best to live it out in their lives. Keep in mind, that not all aspects of the law are for every peoples of the earth. Their are parts that are for Israel and only Israel. Though some, (if you take a path of doing you best to uphold the Law) will try to place parts of the law on you that are not yours to bare. If at any time you are not sure, you are always free to ask me anything. You will not be pushed to do anything, you will not find condemnation, nor anything but a kind and loving answer. One that will stand teh test fo both time and Scripture. Well ok, assaults by any that simply know enough about the Law to be a danger to them self and others.
I do hope this helps.
I agree not all the law applies. I was more talking about the 10 commandments which I do believe apply to all who would accept God. There are many parts of the law that the law itself shows would change or cease with the coming of the Messiah. There are many aspects of the law that are yet to be fulfilled or brought into being by Yeshua.

many do not realise that the sacrifice of Jesus the true lamb of God was the first step in the sanctuary service. anyway I could say much more but thanx for your reply
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Why do we still squabble today after thousands of years regarding the law ?
Because people do not understand or accept that GOD divided the Commandments, separating spiritual observance from carnal works.
Personally I think it would help our understanding if we referred to them separately as the
Commandments of God and
the law of Moses.
and not speak of LAW as if it was all one and the same. Lets 'put difference between what is holy/spiritual and what is carnal/physical' Lev 10v10. Lets do what scripture says !
Hello Beta,

Below is what Peter had to say regarding those pharisees who were claiming that the Gentiles must be circumcised and made to obey the Law given to Moses:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Do you understand what the scripture means that says "the law gives sin its power?" I'd have to say the same to you that Paul said to the Galatians regarding their beginning with the Spirit and then attempting to be justified by the flesh:

"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

We should be trusting in Christ who met the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf and who is the author and finisher of our faith.


 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
Hello Beta,

Below is what Peter had to say regarding those pharisees who were claiming that the Gentiles must be circumcised and made to obey the Law given to Moses:

"Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”

The apostles and elders met to consider this question. After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us. He did not discriminate between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith. Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

Do you understand what the scripture means that says "the law gives sin its power?" I'd have to say the same to you that Paul said to the Galatians regarding their beginning with the Spirit and then attempting to be justified by the flesh:

"Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard? Are you so foolish? After beginning by means of the Spirit, are you now trying to finish by means of the flesh?

We should be trusting in Christ who met the righteous requirements of the Law on our behalf and who is the author and finisher of our faith.


forgive me for not reading all of your post I have a problem with the faint print and also I did not need to read past the word 'circumcision and Pharisees...I have nothing to do with them. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus from the time of His Ministry. If you would like to ask a single question or two I will do my best to answer.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
Depends what you call law.
I only want to keep the Commandments of God Jesus also kept. I'm not talking of the law of Moses which were temporary - but the Commandments of GOD spiritual and eternal loving God and neighbor. Do you have a problem with those ?
Excuse me, but the ten commandments were given to Moses on Mount Sinai and are apart of the Law. And you are correct, Jesus did keep the ten commandments, as well as the rest of the law and that on mankind's behalf and that because we were unable to keep the Law.

You people who trust in the law will be thinking that you are going to get a pat on the back from God for attempting to keep the law. But you will be kept out of the kingdom of God because you trusted in your own works instead of trusting in Christ as the One who fulfilled the Law and thereby satisfying God's requirement for fulfillment.

Think of it this way, scripture states that "unless there is a shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sins." Jesus fulfilled that shedding of blood by shedding His righteous blood on our behalf. As a believer, do you feel that you need to go out and shed your blood to help Jesus fulfill what He already accomplished?

Jesus also took upon himself the wrath of God that we deserve as a result of our sins. Do you feel the need to experience God's wrath to finish the provision of salvation that Jesus already provided? That is exactly what you are doing by attempting to keep the Law. You're saying the Christ's fulfillment of the law was insufficient.
 

Ahwatukee

Senior Member
Mar 12, 2015
11,159
2,375
113
forgive me for not reading all of your post I have a problem with the faint print and also I did not need to read past the word 'circumcision and Pharisees...I have nothing to do with them. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus from the time of His Ministry. If you would like to ask a single question or two I will do my best to answer.
The point being with the Pharisees is that they were claiming that the Gentiles must be circumcised and made to obey the Law of Moses. Now you may not be concerned about circumcision, but in regards to Keeping the Law, you are doing the same thing that the Pharisees were. I'm not asking questions, I'm contending for the truth of God's word, which you are distorting by your teaching of the keeping of the Law, any of the Law.

Jesus kept the Law because we couldn't and thereby freed us from the curse of the Law. Understand this, when you teach such things, you will be held accountable for them.

It is by grace that we have been saved and not by works so that no one can boast or take credit for it.

The Law is good for study, but our salvation is by faith in Christ alone. We should be zealous for good works, but not to obtain or maintain salvation, but to glorify God and also to build up our treasures in heaven.
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
Yes, if you believe that keeping them is required for salvation.
The New Covenant, through the blood of Jesus Christ, has fulfilled all the righteous requirements of the law.
Your desire to pick and choose what you want does not change this.
But obedience to Christ is required who is 'author of our salvation Heb 5v9...don't you think they (all things) work together for our perfecting ? If GOD makes changes who am I to reject them ? You can if you want to...as it says , work out your own salvation...I go through Christ.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
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But obedience to Christ is required who is 'author of our salvation Heb 5v9...don't you think they (all things) work together for our perfecting ? If GOD makes changes who am I to reject them ? You can if you want to...as it says , work out your own salvation...I go through Christ.
With respect if that were true you would not be trying to add to what Jesus did on the cross for us - and this is what you are doing.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Yet I am to be condemed for saying that Salvation comes by Faith, always has always will? Got it, then I will just salvation comes from what, saying I believe?
It does not work that way.
I don't know how to it clear for folks that simply see the word LAW and then go blind to anything that follows.
No, you would not be condemned for saying salvation is by faith, unless you add works.

As for law. As I posted a few pages back (which no one responded to) the law has a purpose. And it has nothing to do with making anyone righteous, or being a part of their salvation.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
So Paul was wrong I take it.
[TABLE]
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[TD] Jas 2:18
But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
Jas 2:20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Or does this not mean what it says?


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1. Thats was James not paul (typo?)
2. James did not contradict paul, He said the same thing, to a different audience, He spoke to licentious people who thought BELIEF was enough. That we could say a prayer and magically we are saved forever, so I can be a hearer and not a doer, live like the world. no sweat.

Paul said we are saved by grace through faith period. Whoever is saved will do work.
Hebrews showed us the wall of faith (faith works, it acts, it does not stand still)
James said if we CLAIM to have faith, But have no work, can that faith save us? Well of course not, it is no faith at all (dead)
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
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So why are people not hearing JESUS who only speaks what His Father tells Him ? Did Father tell Him to nail HIS spiritual/eternal commandments to the cross ? We see that scripture says otherwise Mat 5v17,18. We are to 'return to the same God from whom we have strayed...not follow an imposter from Rome. Wake up you who sleep...for now is your salvation nearer...even knocking at the door to be let in ...and not have to break up your house !
Well then it appears that you forgot other scriptures that clearly say this

ref Colossians 2
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Lol, I get what you're saying here because folks around me truly seem to think their getting into heaven based on just their faith alone, even though the habitually sin day after day. And of course I'm not the judge or anything, but I could've swore he said following his law had something to do with it as well as Faith!

Can you explain atonement for me? The law taught us how sin was atoned for. Since people in here are talking about law. Can someone explain atonement. What was it that was done to cause God to forgive sin?

Licentiousness is a false gospel. Yes But replacing it with legalism (works) is just as dangerous as licentiousness.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
I answer for only me. It may well be that I am not seeing that as I am not looking for it. Though it does seem to me like I am not the only with this in their heart, Then I don't you or me are qualified to judge that. So it would be wise to not pass judgment on things we may not know? Thats my story and I am sticking to it. LOL
True, we can not judge peoples salvation.

But we can listen to what they say, and I think have a prety good understanding, Especially if we walked in their shoes (believed the same thing and taught it) before..lol
 

beta

Senior Member
Aug 8, 2016
2,782
333
83
The point being with the Pharisees is that they were claiming that the Gentiles must be circumcised and made to obey the Law of Moses. Now you may not be concerned about circumcision, but in regards to Keeping the Law, you are doing the same thing that the Pharisees were. I'm not asking questions, I'm contending for the truth of God's word, which you are distorting by your teaching of the keeping of the Law, any of the Law.

Jesus kept the Law because we couldn't and thereby freed us from the curse of the Law. Understand this, when you teach such things, you will be held accountable for them.

It is by grace that we have been saved and not by works so that no one can boast or take credit for it.

The Law is good for study, but our salvation is by faith in Christ alone. We should be zealous for good works, but not to obtain or maintain salvation, but to glorify God and also to build up our treasures in heaven.
I don't think there is a curse for keeping the Commandments (the 10) of God. Rev 14v12,13. And I don't keep Moses law. Our treasures in heaven are 'to do the Will of God. Have not seen anywhere Him cancelling His own spiritual eternal Commandments which are holy, just and good Rom 7....when I do I'll change my mind.

Sorry if I have missed anything else in your post.
 
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eternally-gratefull

Guest
Afraid it is you who have things 'back to front while still thinking OT.
NOW faith is first...obedience and good works follow Rev 14v12, 13. hope that helps !
lol.. Which I have been saying since I first God here (faith first, Obedience and good works follow)

Again, There was grace in the OT.. Maybe try to read what people say first?

In fact, this response shows you did not even read the post you responded to. If you did, You would not have much such comments.
 

graceNpeace

Senior Member
Aug 12, 2016
2,180
107
63
No, you would not be condemned for saying salvation is by faith, unless you add works.

As for law. As I posted a few pages back (which no one responded to) the law has a purpose. And it has nothing to do with making anyone righteous, or being a part of their salvation.
Yes, all the law can do is condemn us - and convince us of the need for a saviour.
Paul called the law a tutor:

24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. Gal 3:24

And once we believed in Christ Jesus the law no longer had a purpose for us:

25
But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. Gal 3:25

Why are we no longer under the law - because we are under faith:

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe.For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. Rom 3:21-26
 

miknik5

Senior Member
Jun 2, 2016
7,833
591
113
So why are people not hearing JESUS who only speaks what His Father tells Him ? Did Father tell Him to nail HIS spiritual/eternal commandments to the cross ? We see that scripture says otherwise Mat 5v17,18. We are to 'return to the same God from whom we have strayed...not follow an imposter from Rome. Wake up you who sleep...for now is your salvation nearer...even knocking at the door to be let in ...and not have to break up your house !
Why are people not hearing?
dont you remember HE said for judgement I have come that those who are blind will see and those who see will be made blind...in them is the prophecy of Isaiah fulfilled:

be ever seeing but never seeing, ever hearing but never hearing lest they should understand with their heart....TURN...and HE should heal them


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