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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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There is ONLY ONE SIN that is UNFORGIVABLE, and that is the Sin of Blaspheming the Work of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit tries to GET EVERYONE TO BELIEVE. REJECT THAT, and YOU HAVE BLASPHEMED THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Every one that ends up in HELL, (LAKE OF FIRE), is guilty of that ONE SIN.

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (KJV)
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

1 John 2:2 (NIV)
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

Mark 3:28-30 (HCSB)
28 I assure you: People will be forgiven for all sins and whatever blasphemies they may blaspheme.
29 But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin”—
30 because they were saying, “He has an unclean spirit.”
That is my understanding of this phenomenon.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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I will read that and comment. All this is written before I read it though.
. . .
I think you're obviously not understanding what I mean when I say that every word is FOR us, but Jesus recorded words were not directed at you when He spoke them. Unless you're 2,000 years old and were there. This is not meant to be offensive, but you're arrogance is showing a tiny bit, speaking to me like "If you keep studying hard you'll eventually understand it my way", when off the bat I see a problem with your interpretation method.
. . .

I think you are OBVIOUS to the RELEVANCY of the Scriptures to the hear and now.

LISTEN to what Christ said:

Matthew 5:17-19 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you,
till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


HE SAID till Heaven (Atmosphere) and Earth Pass Away, NOT ONE Crossing of a T or one Period, will pass from the LAW.

The LAW never was intended a system that you COULD KEEP, it was to Intended to wake you UP to SIN THAT YOU CAN'T KEEP, Driving you to seek a MESSIAH, and that YOU CANNOT KEEP IT PERFECTLY, Making You Guilty of SINNING AGAINST the Entire LAW. THEREFORE THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS A MESSIAH.

NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE HAS PASSED AWAY, PERIOD. It is as RELEVANT to today as the day it was GIVEN. False Teachers always say "That verse don't apply to my, because Paul wrote that to the Galations." What a CHEAP COP OUT OF OWNERSHIP OF YOUR OWN SIN.


Romans 7:7-8 (NASB)
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

THAT IS THE GENUINE PURPOSE FOR THE LAW, and It will not Pass Away till Heaven and earth passes away.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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Israel's purpose was to share the truth of the Almighty with the world. The Messiah's purpose was to redeem Israel - and graft in other preordained sheep - so that Israel could fulfill its purpose.

Currently, there are over 2000 denominations of Christianity, Catholicism, churches of England, about 2 major factions of Islam, several schools of Judaism, and multitudes upon multitudes of secular, pagan or atheistic nations practicing their own faiths today.

There are billions currently operating under their own beliefs about the Almighty (whether He exists, doesn't exist, His ways, etc).

Do you think Israel's purpose has been fulfilled yet? What do you suggest the millennium reign is for if not to teach the nations the truth about the Almighty?
No the Messiah came to redeem the whole world. Not just Israel.
"Do you think Israel's purpose has been fulfilled yet?" Yes I do, the Messiah did come through Israel, through the tribe of Judah just like He said. I believe that the word became flesh, born of a virgin, not born of Adam fallen like all of us, born of the Spirit Jesus the God man was the living example of our purpose, what we were created to be. Jesus lived His life NEVER transgressing the will of the Father, spiritually connected in a way us fallen were cut off. Then He laid down His life to pay the penalty we deserve, but He didn't, the Father poured out the wrath that belongs to each one of us on His Son that day on the cross. Isaiah said that it pleased Him to do so. Jesus never having earned "the wages of death" by sinning, lay down His life and was killed by those He came to save for His glory and because He is good on a level we can barely comprehend, but man is it glorious. We can now be reconciled to our Creator, made whole the way we were created to, living to His glory now. I'm sorry man but saying that Jesus didn't do what He said He was going to do, when He said He was going to do it robs Him of glory. Now I say this of course knowing you are not trying to, nor think, you are doing anything but glorifying Jesus.
I think you are OBVIOUS to the RELEVANCY of the Scriptures to the hear and now.

LISTEN to what Christ said:

Matthew 5:17-19 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you,
till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


HE SAID till Heaven (Atmosphere) and Earth Pass Away, NOT ONE Crossing of a T or one Period, will pass from the LAW.

The LAW never was intended a system that you COULD KEEP, it was to Intended to wake you UP to SIN THAT YOU CAN'T KEEP, Driving you to seek a MESSIAH, and that YOU CANNOT KEEP IT PERFECTLY, Making You Guilty of SINNING AGAINST the Entire LAW. THEREFORE THE WHOLE WORLD NEEDS A MESSIAH.

NOTHING IN SCRIPTURE HAS PASSED AWAY, PERIOD. It is as RELEVANT to today as the day it was GIVEN. False Teachers always say "That verse don't apply to my, because Paul wrote that to the Galations." What a CHEAP COP OUT OF OWNERSHIP OF YOUR OWN SIN.


Romans 7:7-8 (NASB)
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

THAT IS THE GENUINE PURPOSE FOR THE LAW, and It will not Pass Away till Heaven and earth passes away.
You quote "
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you,
till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."



Yet take Matthew 24
"33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away "

and tell me it really means "A LONG, LONG, LONG time from now, generations and generations after this, I'm telling you falsely, but I say "this generation", because I want to trick you and leave you looking stupid trying to explain how my very clear words directed to YOU, my disciples in front of me, that I love and the ones I'm speaking to, don't really mean "your" generation, as I clearly said, I mean a VERY distant generation, that will have nothing at all to do with you, so acting like I'm saying this to you when I really mean it for a FAR FAR generation, not this one, is honestly deceptive, and a lie right to your face. Wait but I'm Jesus. I don't sin. Hmmm..... Guess I meant what I said and my judgement did fall on the covenant breakers in 70 AD, destroying the temple brick by brick, destroying all the priesthood genealogies and killing the priest, forever ending the age of sacrifice and the law, all in recorded history, just like I said."

You say "go to scripture", yet you don't listen to it here. What is your scriptural evidence that when Jesus said "this generation", He meant another generation they'd never see? Please let me know oh wise on with all the answers. I'm here to learn teacher. Teach.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
11,995
4,615
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No the Messiah came to redeem the whole world. Not just Israel.
"Do you think Israel's purpose has been fulfilled yet?" Yes I do, the Messiah did come through Israel, through the tribe of Judah just like He said. I believe that the word became flesh, born of a virgin, not born of Adam fallen like all of us, born of the Spirit Jesus the God man was the living example of our purpose, what we were created to be. Jesus lived His life NEVER transgressing the will of the Father, spiritually connected in a way us fallen were cut off. Then He laid down His life to pay the penalty we deserve, but He didn't, the Father poured out the wrath that belongs to each one of us on His Son that day on the cross. Isaiah said that it pleased Him to do so. Jesus never having earned "the wages of death" by sinning, lay down His life and was killed by those He came to save for His glory and because He is good on a level we can barely comprehend, but man is it glorious. We can now be reconciled to our Creator, made whole the way we were created to, living to His glory now. I'm sorry man but saying that Jesus didn't do what He said He was going to do, when He said He was going to do it robs Him of glory. Now I say this of course knowing you are not trying to, nor think, you are doing anything but glorifying Jesus.


You quote "
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you,
till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."



Yet take Matthew 24
"33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away "

and tell me it really means "A LONG, LONG, LONG time from now, generations and generations after this, I'm telling you falsely, but I say "this generation", because I want to trick you and leave you looking stupid trying to explain how my very clear words directed to YOU, my disciples in front of me, that I love and the ones I'm speaking to, don't really mean "your" generation, as I clearly said, I mean a VERY distant generation, that will have nothing at all to do with you, so acting like I'm saying this to you when I really mean it for a FAR FAR generation, not this one, is honestly deceptive, and a lie right to your face. Wait but I'm Jesus. I don't sin. Hmmm..... Guess I meant what I said and my judgement did fall on the covenant breakers in 70 AD, destroying the temple brick by brick, destroying all the priesthood genealogies and killing the priest, forever ending the age of sacrifice and the law, all in recorded history, just like I said."

You say "go to scripture", yet you don't listen to it here. What is your scriptural evidence that when Jesus said "this generation", He meant another generation they'd never see? Please let me know oh wise on with all the answers. I'm here to learn teacher. Teach.

AND ISRAEL IS HIS CHOSEN NATION, and always has been, and always will be.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,701
8,234
113
No the Messiah came to redeem the whole world. Not just Israel.
"Do you think Israel's purpose has been fulfilled yet?" Yes I do, the Messiah did come through Israel, through the tribe of Judah just like He said. I believe that the word became flesh, born of a virgin, not born of Adam fallen like all of us, born of the Spirit Jesus the God man was the living example of our purpose, what we were created to be. Jesus lived His life NEVER transgressing the will of the Father, spiritually connected in a way us fallen were cut off. Then He laid down His life to pay the penalty we deserve, but He didn't, the Father poured out the wrath that belongs to each one of us on His Son that day on the cross. Isaiah said that it pleased Him to do so. Jesus never having earned "the wages of death" by sinning, lay down His life and was killed by those He came to save for His glory and because He is good on a level we can barely comprehend, but man is it glorious. We can now be reconciled to our Creator, made whole the way we were created to, living to His glory now. I'm sorry man but saying that Jesus didn't do what He said He was going to do, when He said He was going to do it robs Him of glory. Now I say this of course knowing you are not trying to, nor think, you are doing anything but glorifying Jesus.


You quote "
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you,
till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."



Yet take Matthew 24
"33So also, when you see all these things, you will know that He is near, right at the door. 34Truly I tell you, this generation will not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will never pass away "

and tell me it really means "A LONG, LONG, LONG time from now, generations and generations after this, I'm telling you falsely, but I say "this generation", because I want to trick you and leave you looking stupid trying to explain how my very clear words directed to YOU, my disciples in front of me, that I love and the ones I'm speaking to, don't really mean "your" generation, as I clearly said, I mean a VERY distant generation, that will have nothing at all to do with you, so acting like I'm saying this to you when I really mean it for a FAR FAR generation, not this one, is honestly deceptive, and a lie right to your face. Wait but I'm Jesus. I don't sin. Hmmm..... Guess I meant what I said and my judgement did fall on the covenant breakers in 70 AD, destroying the temple brick by brick, destroying all the priesthood genealogies and killing the priest, forever ending the age of sacrifice and the law, all in recorded history, just like I said."

You say "go to scripture", yet you don't listen to it here. What is your scriptural evidence that when Jesus said "this generation", He meant another generation they'd never see? Please let me know oh wise on with all the answers. I'm here to learn teacher. Teach.
The Bible states very clearly and very often that God is not finished with Israel. And then the Bible declares with exquisite detail their future destiny.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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No the Messiah came to redeem the whole world. Not just Israel.
"Do you think Israel's purpose has been fulfilled yet?" Yes I do,
It seems others have replied to you with the same sentiment as me with regard to Israel, so I'll just add, "what about what Paul says to the Romans in chapter 11?" Note that he said it after The Messiah came.

Based on it, the resurrection of the dead coincides with the regathering of natural Israel, as in, one can't happen without the other.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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The Bible states very clearly and very often that God is not finished with Israel. And then the Bible declares with exquisite detail their future destiny.
No the preconceived ideas that you bring to the text, that actually rip the verses out of context and use it to give the appearance it's clear, but it's not. I also don't like this false binary that if I don't believe this then I think "God is done with Israel" or something. I do however believe this purpose for which Israel was "chosen" has been fulfilled in full. I believe all nations everywhere are all now called back to the Father through Jesus Christ. This includes the Jews. I think trying to set the Jews apart as if they are not called to salvation through their Messiah Jesus the Christ, and acting as if God has "another way" for them, is not only wrong, but honestly as hateful as one can be towards another person. I believe "it is finished", just like our King said, I also believe the judgement that ended the AGE Jesus was warning about would happen THAT GENERATION, actually did just like He said. I believe Him man. I mean even if you don't agree with how I read it, you can't say that it's not what He clearly said.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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It seems others have replied to you with the same sentiment as me with regard to Israel, so I'll just add, "what about what Paul says to the Romans in chapter 11?" Note that he said it after The Messiah came.

Based on it, the resurrection of the dead coincides with the regathering of natural Israel, as in, one can't happen without the other.
Yes Romans 11, beautiful, but can you point me to the part that says they will or can be saved any other way but through Jesus? I'll wait. I though there was no longer Jew or Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. Right? I'm more Israel than a Godless ethic Jew.
 

VCO

Senior Member
Oct 14, 2013
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Agreed, but chosen for what?
CHOSEN to be the FOCAL POINT of the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM, in future Prophecy.


Zechariah 14:7-11 (HCSB)
7 It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
10 All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
11 People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Zechariah 14:16-19 (NKJV)
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


I am sure that you too have run into others that insist that all prophecy was completed by 70 A.D. I wonder how they get around that Prophecy about everything south of Jerusalem will be a PLAIN. Geba was about 15 miles northeast of Jerusalem, and Rimmon, was west of the southern end of the DEAD SEA. THAT IS ALL MOUNTAINS NOW. I assume it will be a LARGE CAMP GROUND for the WHOLE WORLD that will be TRAVELING THERE to KEEP the Feast of Tabernacles. That would include possibly 3 Trips to the Fourth Temple.

-
-


It is their equivalent to our THANKSGIVING, only it lasts for 6 days, 2-7 October 2020.
 

Diakonos

Well-known member
Jan 19, 2019
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Anacortes, WA
Agreed, but chosen for what?
Israel was chosen:
-to be in instrument of God's universal work of redemption, "for salvation is from the Jews"
-to be the beneficiaries of election at the denouement of history "What is the advantage of being a Jew?"
-to represent God to the rest of the world "as a light before the nations"
-to to be God's delight
-to have covenant partnership (conditional & non-conditional covenants)
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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Yes Romans 11, beautiful, but can you point me to the part that says they will or can be saved any other way but through Jesus? I'll wait.
With respect, it was never suggested or implied that they will be saved in any other way or by any other Being.

Scripture says The Messiah will regather Israel and The Messiah will resurrect the dead. Truly, nothing happens without The Messiah. But these two events - the regathering of Israel and the resurrection - are inextricably bound. That's why Paul says...


Romans 11:11-15
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.


Paul, speaking to Gentiles, specifically says:

1. Natural Israel's loss/fall/rejection = Salvation (The Messiah) & riches & reconciliation to the world

2. Natural Israel's inclusion = Greater Riches

3. Natural Israel's acceptance/receiving = The awaited Resurrection of the Dead


Romans 11:28-29
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
2,951
960
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44
CHOSEN to be the FOCAL POINT of the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM, in future Prophecy.


Zechariah 14:7-11 (HCSB)
7 It will be a day known ⌊only⌋ to Yahweh, without day or night, but there will be light at evening.
8 On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea, in summer and winter alike.
9 On that day Yahweh will become King over all the earth—Yahweh alone, and His name alone.
10 All the land from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem will be changed into a plain. But ⌊Jerusalem⌋ will be raised up and will remain on its site from the Benjamin Gate to the place of the First Gate, to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the royal winepresses.
11 People will live there, and never again will there be a curse of complete destruction. So Jerusalem will dwell in security.

Zechariah 14:16-19 (NKJV)
16 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain.
18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.


I am sure that you too have run into others that insist that all prophecy was completed by 70 A.D. I wonder how they get around that Prophecy about everything south of Jerusalem will be a PLAIN. Geba was about 15 miles northeast of Jerusalem, and Rimmon, was west of the southern end of the DEAD SEA. THAT IS ALL MOUNTAINS NOW. I assume it will be a LARGE CAMP GROUND for the WHOLE WORLD that will be TRAVELING THERE to KEEP the Feast of Tabernacles. That would include possibly 3 Trips to the Fourth Temple.

-
-


It is their equivalent to our THANKSGIVING, only it lasts for 6 days, 2-7 October 2020.
Nope, you're wrong. They were chosen to bring the Messiah into the world to redeem it. The WHOLE WORLD, and I say "mission accomplished", King Jesus reigns right now today over everything, seated at the right hand of the Father, granted ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH, reigning in majesty until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. This is the King I serve, not one that did half what He said then takes a 2,000+ year break before He comes back to take the "good one" up with Him to sit and watch the rest rip themselves apart. Sorry to sound so blunt, but if you can take it the same way you give it I think we're all right, but the more I see the effect this pre trib deception has on folks the more I understand why false teachings are taken so seriously by God.

Also as far as me "explaining" anything about 70 AD and how I think any of that fits, you're going to have to give me more to justify your 3rd temple than the "maybe it's just too spiritual for us to understand" cop out. Now we can jump deeper into these matters and I will lay out what I believe makes the most sense the best I can for anything you come with, but everything that anyone believes that have the AoD happening in the future has to tell me how God gets another temple on earth without having commanded it built, or if you believe He will command it built then explain to me why He is re-instituting a system that pointed to something that already happen, and please tell me how this can happen without adding to scripture now? Once you clear up this complete illogical jumble of incoherence and bumbling redundancy with more than "God can just do anything", then I will sit down and take each issue one at a time and answer until your satisfied, not agree, but are satisfied with my answers in front of everyone.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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With respect, it was never suggested or implied that they will be saved in any other way or by any other Being.

Scripture says The Messiah will regather Israel and The Messiah will resurrect the dead. Truly, nothing happens without The Messiah. But these two events - the regathering of Israel and the resurrection - are inextricably bound. That's why Paul says...


Romans 11:11-15
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious.

12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.


Paul, speaking to Gentiles, specifically says:

1. Natural Israel's loss/fall/rejection = Salvation (The Messiah) & riches & reconciliation to the world

2. Natural Israel's inclusion = Greater Riches

3. Natural Israel's acceptance/receiving = The awaited Resurrection of the Dead


Romans 11:28-29
As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.

29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Wow, so you are saying right here that Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him. Except the Jews? That is what you're saying here. You're saying they have a clause that excludes them from needing Jesus "right now". You ARE saying that, and YOU ARE WRONG. You are trying to make it say what it doesn't say and suggesting that there is a human being on this planet that get's a "pass" outside Jesus is scary to me and the kind of hateful deception that false teachings bring. Yes God has a plan for the Jews. The same plan He always had, Jesus Christ. Period. Are you really arguing this?
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
2,915
817
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Wow, so you are saying right here that Jesus is THE way, THE truth, and THE life, NO ONE comes to the Father but by Him. Except the Jews? That is what you're saying here. You're saying they have a clause that excludes them from needing Jesus "right now". You ARE saying that, and YOU ARE WRONG. You are trying to make it say what it doesn't say and suggesting that there is a human being on this planet that get's a "pass" outside Jesus is scary to me and the kind of hateful deception that false teachings bring. Yes God has a plan for the Jews. The same plan He always had, Jesus Christ. Period. Are you really arguing this?
????

Well Jim it appears you seem to be saying all of this above ^ ...and then arguing against it. Meanwhile, I simply quoted and then repeated what Paul says to the Romans in Chapter 11, in outline form.

Israel isn't getting a pass. Their judgment is right now, and started when the temple was destroyed. Their judgment has been the last 2000 years including everything they went through. They lost The Blessed One and their position and their homeland and all of what they lost went to the nations while they suffered persecution after persecution.

...But the Almighty's judgment on them was never permanent. They weren't replaced. The Almighty doesn't operate that way. He's a just God who keeps His word when He gives it (unlike we humans who can quickly justify breaking our word to others based on their actions towards us). The Almighty's wisdom and lovingkindness are far beyond ours.

What issue do you have with what Paul is saying in chapter 11, specifically?
 

cv5

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Nope, you're wrong. They were chosen to bring the Messiah into the world to redeem it. The WHOLE WORLD, and I say "mission accomplished", King Jesus reigns right now today over everything, seated at the right hand of the Father, granted ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH, reigning in majesty until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. This is the King I serve, not one that did half what He said then takes a 2,000+ year break before He comes back to take the "good one" up with Him to sit and watch the rest rip themselves apart. Sorry to sound so blunt, but if you can take it the same way you give it I think we're all right, but the more I see the effect this pre trib deception has on folks the more I understand why false teachings are taken so seriously by God.

Also as far as me "explaining" anything about 70 AD and how I think any of that fits, you're going to have to give me more to justify your 3rd temple than the "maybe it's just too spiritual for us to understand" cop out. Now we can jump deeper into these matters and I will lay out what I believe makes the most sense the best I can for anything you come with, but everything that anyone believes that have the AoD happening in the future has to tell me how God gets another temple on earth without having commanded it built, or if you believe He will command it built then explain to me why He is re-instituting a system that pointed to something that already happen, and please tell me how this can happen without adding to scripture now? Once you clear up this complete illogical jumble of incoherence and bumbling redundancy with more than "God can just do anything", then I will sit down and take each issue one at a time and answer until your satisfied, not agree, but are satisfied with my answers in front of everyone.
To make things simple for you:

-The Church is the Bride, constituted of regenerate Jew and gentile. The assembly is still presently being gathered until a near future finalization. They love and serve the Lord Messiah now, though imperfectly. Their abode is in the heavenlies.

-Israel is the Nation, presently unregenerate, consisting of ethnic Israelites only. This assembly will be "regathered" in the near future. After the regathering God will take out their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, whereby they will love and serve the Lord Messiah forever.
Their aboade is upon the planet earth.
 

cv5

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To make things simple for you:

-The Church is the Bride, constituted of regenerate Jew and gentile. The assembly is still presently being gathered until a near future finalization. They love and serve the Lord Messiah now, though imperfectly. Their abode is in the heavenlies.

-Israel is the Nation, presently unregenerate, consisting of ethnic Israelites only. This assembly will be "regathered" in the near future. After the regathering God will take out their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh, whereby they will love and serve the Lord Messiah forever.
Their aboade is upon the planet earth.
One other point I think I need to make:

-The Church is of the "first resurrection". Born twice died once. Upon them the second death has no power.

-Millennial Israel will also not see the second death, as they have been miraculously redeemed with heart of true obedience.

-Millennial gentiles who received the Lord Messiah will not see the second death, but those who reject the Lord Messiah will be condemned. They will be judged at the great white throne judgment, along with everyone else who ever rejected the Lords Council, Word and Promises during the entire history of the world, from Adam to the end of the millennium.
 

VCO

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Yes Romans 11, beautiful, but can you point me to the part that says they will or can be saved any other way but through Jesus? I'll wait. I though there was no longer Jew or Gentile, male nor female, slave nor free. Right? I'm more Israel than a Godless ethic Jew.


I will give you that verse, but it comes from the mouth of JESUS. The NAME JESUS was a VERY COMMON NAME, so it is not the Name, Nor even the Son of the Most High GOD, that SAVES. It is recognizing WHO HE IS, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT KNOW HIS NAME, AND believing GOD, in your HEART, that HE IS THE MESSIAH, the Creator of the UNIVERSE. OTHERWISE THOSE 2000 DEMONS IN REGION of the Gerasenes had enough faith to be SAVED.


Luke 8:26-28 (NIV)
26 They sailed to the region of the Gerasenes, which is across the lake from Galilee.
27 When Jesus stepped ashore, he was met by a demon-possessed man from the town. For a long time this man had not worn clothes or lived in a house, but had lived in the tombs.
28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out and fell at his feet, shouting at the top of his voice, "What do you want with me, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I beg you, don't torture me!"

IT WAS ALL HEAD KNOWLEDGE, and NOT HEART KNOWLEDGE. They called HIM by HIS NAME, they called HIM Son of the Most High GOD, they knew the Spirit in HIM was GOD, AND THEY EVEN KNEW HE WOULD BE THEIR ULTIMATE JUDGE. Do you even realize how many people that think they are SAVED just because they have the same kind of faith as DEMONS ? ? ?

AND LOOK AT THIS:

Luke 12:8-10 (HCSB)
8 “And I say to you, anyone who acknowledges Me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God,
9 but whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
10
Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but the one who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven


SO, He who BLASPHEMES THE HOLY SPIRIT, is the same one whoever denies Me before men will be denied before the angels of God.
Because it is the HOLY SPIRIT'S JOB to try to get us to believe in our HEART (human spirit), instead of only HEAD KNOWLEDGE. Like the saying goes, the distance between NOT SAVED and SAVED, is the same distance between your HEAD and Your HEART (Human Spirit).

I will show another example of this:

Romans 1:19-22 (HCSB)
19 since what can be known about God is evident among them, because God has shown it to them.
20 For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.
21 For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.
22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools


NOTICE, they are not using the NAME OF JESUS, but that IS NOT THE REASON FOR GOD'S REJECTION OF THEM.
THE DID NOT GLORIFY (HAPPENS IN THE HEART) HIM AS CREATOR. That CAN ONLY come from the HEART, enabled by the HOLY SPIRIT.

For that REASON, I absolutely Believe GOD recognized, before the white man got to this Country, Monotheistic Tribes that worshiped THEE GREAT SPIRIT, as Saving FAITH, because they believe the Great Spirit created every thing that IS. They really did live up to the LIGHT they had been given.
 

VCO

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Oct 14, 2013
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Nope, you're wrong. They were chosen to bring the Messiah into the world to redeem it. The WHOLE WORLD, and I say "mission accomplished", King Jesus reigns right now today over everything, seated at the right hand of the Father, granted ALL authority in heaven and ON EARTH, reigning in majesty until ALL enemies have been made a footstool for His feet. This is the King I serve, not one that did half what He said then takes a 2,000+ year break before He comes back to take the "good one" up with Him to sit and watch the rest rip themselves apart. Sorry to sound so blunt, but if you can take it the same way you give it I think we're all right, but the more I see the effect this pre trib deception has on folks the more I understand why false teachings are taken so seriously by God.

Also as far as me "explaining" anything about 70 AD and how I think any of that fits, you're going to have to give me more to justify your 3rd temple than the "maybe it's just too spiritual for us to understand" cop out. Now we can jump deeper into these matters and I will lay out what I believe makes the most sense the best I can for anything you come with, but everything that anyone believes that have the AoD happening in the future has to tell me how God gets another temple on earth without having commanded it built, or if you believe He will command it built then explain to me why He is re-instituting a system that pointed to something that already happen, and please tell me how this can happen without adding to scripture now? Once you clear up this complete illogical jumble of incoherence and bumbling redundancy with more than "God can just do anything", then I will sit down and take each issue one at a time and answer until your satisfied, not agree, but are satisfied with my answers in front of everyone.


Isaiah 46:10-13 (NCV)
10 From the beginning I told you what would happen in the end. A long time ago I told you things that have not yet happened. When I plan something, it happens. What I want to do, I will do.
11 I am calling a man from the east to carry out my plan; he will come like a hawk from a country far away. I will make what I have said come true; I will do what I have planned.
12 Listen to me, you stubborn people, who are far from what is right.
13 I will soon do the things that are right. I will bring salvation soon. I will save Jerusalem and bring glory to Israel.“

Ezekiel 34:24-31 (HCSB)
24 I, Yahweh, will be their God, and My servant David will be a prince among them. I, Yahweh, have spoken.
25 “I will make a covenant of peace with them and eliminate dangerous animals in the land, so that they may live securely in the wilderness and sleep in the forest.
26 I will make them and the area around My hill a blessing: I will send down showers in their season—showers of blessing.
27 The trees of the field will give their fruit, and the land will yield its produce; My flock will be secure in their land. They will know that I am Yahweh when I break the bars of their yoke and rescue them from the hands of those who enslave them.
28 They will no longer be prey for the nations, and the wild animals of the land will not consume them. They will live securely, and no one will frighten ⌊them⌋.
29 I will establish for them a place renowned for ⌊its⌋ agriculture, and they will no longer be victims of famine in the land. They will no longer endure the insults of the nations.
30 Then they will know that I, Yahweh their God, am with them, and that they, the house of Israel, are My people.” ⌊This is⌋ the declaration of the Lord GOD.
31 “You are My flock, the {mortal} human flock of My pasture, and I am your God.” ⌊This is⌋ the declaration of the Lord GOD.

Ezekiel 37:25-28 (HCSB)
25 “They will live in the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They will live in it forever with their children and grandchildren, and My servant David will be their prince forever.
26 I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. I will establish and multiply them and will set My sanctuary among them forever. {Fourth Temple}
27 My dwelling place will be with them; I will be their God, and they will be My people.
28 When My sanctuary is among them forever, the nations will know that I, Yahweh, sanctify Israel.”

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This CHART is fairly Accurate in my Opinion. Israel's Trials, is also 70th Week of Daniel, also Called Jacob's Trouble. There Should be a line at the mid-point of 7 years of Tribulations, marking when Antichrist will march into the TEMPLE demanding everyone Worship him.