This is to whom the shoe fits.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
T

Therapon

Guest
Thank you for answering my questions. Since you regard Jews as having been blinded by God to the point that they bear no moral responsibility to accept Jesus as Lord, you have parted from the Apostolic message.
Possibly so, but due to my particular ministry, I am possibly aware of fulfillment of Scripture that the church at large is not. I’ll leave out most of the gory details, but this will still be a bit lengthy, please be patient.

35 years ago, the Lord led to dedicate the rest of my life to a new study of His prophetic books. One of the first things I learned from Daniel 12:11 was there would be 1290 days from the abolition of sacrifices in Daniel’s time until the “abomination that maketh desolate” would be set up. Ezekiel 4:5-6 reveals that a prophetic day should be understood as a year. Well, it is exactly 1290 Hebrew years, 1271.5 solar years, from when sacrifices were abolished in Daniel’s time until 688 A.D. when Kalifah Abd el Malik ibn Marwan began construction of the Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount of God most
holy.

The next thing I noted was that there were prophetic days and months in Revelation and wondered if they too should be understood as years. I ran what appeared to be that cockamamie theory up a flagpole to see if anyone saluted. Revelation 11:2 states:

“But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”

In the lead article of the March 1983 edition of the well-respected Biblical Archaeology Review, Israeli archaeologist Arthur F. Kaufman, proved through holes he found on the northern edge of the temple platform, drilled in the bedrock, spaced on the sacred cubit, that the original Temple of Solomon stood some 300 North of the Dome and that the Dome of the Rock
stood in what was once known as the court of the Gentiles.

Now look at that verse again: “But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.”

The holy city Jerusalem was freed from Gentile control on June 6, 1967, the Dome of the rock is in the court of the Gentiles, and 42 months is 1278.34 days.

1967-1278 = 688 A.D. and the construction of the Dome of the Rock!
Not creative theology, brother, provable history!

Next, look at the two following verses, Revelation 11:3-4. Could they also be day years again?

“And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth. These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.”

Revelation 1:20 states, “and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches,” so the two witnesses of 11:2-3 are churches unless God changes the definition of candlesticks somewhere between Revelation 1 and Revelation 11, which He didn’t, so Candlesticks are churches! But which churches, fortunately there is another figurative descriptor, “these are the two olive trees.”

Now it’s terrible hermeneutics to go to the Old Testament for the definition of new New Testament figurative language when there is a New Testament definition that fits perfectly, so we look around the New Testament and what do we find? Romans 11:24-25:

“For if thou (Gentile believers) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree (the Jewish people): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that
blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.”

So there are your two olive trees, but what about those 1260 days? The new nation of Israel was established on March 15, 1948, when the Jews were once again back in control of the land that God swore to give to the descendants of Abraham:

1948 -1260 equals 688 A.D and the Dome of the Rock again.

Now I might be able to accept one coincidence, two coincidences over 2573 years would be stretching my credulity, but three? No way, so we now have a provable doctrine! But will many here believe it? Probably not. They will argue about the details, and undoubtedly I’ll be called a heretic a few more times, but the evidence is overwhelming:

The Two Witnesses during the Christian era are the Jewish people and the Gentile church!


The rest should be downhill if we just accept Romans 2:28, Romans 4:15, Romans 11:8, Romans 11:11, Romans 11:24-29 at face value. Would one of God’s Two Witnesses to an unsaved world during the Christian era be lost? Of course not, and I have only shown here and in various other threads, a smattering of the biblical evidence showing that a devout Jew of our own time could be saved without recognizing Yeshua as his Messiah.

You see, brother, the Church today teaches a doctrinal salvation . . . that you need to have your doctrine right to be saved. I believe that to be false doctrine. All over the Bible we read that God is far more concerned with the condition of the heart then He is with doctrinal accuracy. To paraphrase 1 Samuel 16:7, “Man looketh upon the doctrine, but the Lord looketh upon the
heart.”
 
T

Therapon

Guest
I'll probably start a new thread with the above.
 
A

Ariel82

Guest
Thank you for answering my questions. I understand that when there are hundreds of posts you (the OP) assume that the answers have been given and consider it repetition to quote and answer each post anew.

If God overlooked the blindness of Jews in NT times, He would have done the same in the first century as he does in the 21st. The issue of Jews and gentiles in the same local church is a theme dealt with extensively in scripture. Nowhere in the apostolic church do we see the Jewish part of the congregation given permission to be blind to the identity of Jesus as the Christ. First century Jews were exhorted to accept Jesus as the Christ, to the point of martyrdom. That is the clear apostolic testimony. First century missionaries would often (always?) go to the Jews first, preaching..... "you have been blinded by God and can not see Jesus so we won't bother to preach Him to you"?....No- that never was the apostolic message to Jews.

Since you regard Jews as having been blinded by God to the point that they bear no moral responsibility to accept Jesus as Lord, you have parted from the Apostolic message. "Jesus whom you crucified" was preached to both Jew and Gentile in the first century. What has happened since then that you would withhold preaching Jesus to blinded Jews?
the Apostles died and people corrupted their message in order to write themselves into scripture.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Jews during the Christian era could be saved without accepting New Testament doctrine.

true or false readers?
this is pretty basic stuff.

by "New Testament dcotrine" ellis just means THE LORD JESUS CHRIST the Actual literal Messiah who came 2000 years ago.

anybody who gets this wrong is off my friends list, that's for certain.
from today on. for what it's worth.

i know jews who need JESUS The Actual literal Person.
and this junk is toxic.

enabling rejection of Messiah - there's only ONE.
 
Last edited:
T

Therapon

Guest
Acts 5:34, 38 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men . . . Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
Acts 5:34, 38 Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and commanded to put the apostles forth a little space; And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye intend to do as touching these men . . . Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
Acts 5
27And when they had brought them, they set them before the council. And the high priest questioned them, 28saying, “We strictly charged you not to teach in this name, yet here you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching, and you intend to bring this man’s blood upon us.” 29But Peter and the apostles answered, “We must obey God rather than men. 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

Who did God raise?
What is The Name?
and What did He come for?

to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins


an epic fail according to you ellis.
 

WordGaurdian

Senior Member
May 1, 2011
473
8
0
I suppose in the end all one can really do is hope and pray. I believe that God is fair and just. I also believe that if we did a better job of proclaiming the gospel and Christ as the Messiah as He taught it to His disciples to hear and obey God's voice, we would have the fruit of which you talk. I pray for grace for the sons and daughters of my ancestors. For Isreal was scattered abroad, but so to was the Jews. Many do not even know their own heritage. I pray that God may grant us the grace to be humble and stay humble. I wish I've had the previldges of the knowledge you possess and the pearls of wisdom in your care.
May our God grant you peace. And I thank you for your longsuffering with me, and I beg your indulgence for my hastyness as I am still young and often do not heed as much as I should.
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
Wordguardian, you didn't realize it but you spoke words wiser than some of the people in this thread.
 
P

peterT

Guest
One more time . . . I’m not making doctrine, my words are valueless. I’m just quoting scriptures and asking you to believe them, Romans 2:19, Romans 4:15, Romans 11:11, Romans 11:28-29. It’s easy to believe verses that fit orthodox doctrine, but it takes a Berean heart to believe those that don’t. It is faulty exegesis to use one verse to disprove another, both are the Word of God. The key to truth is to find how they reconcile because both are true. So why not accept the verses I quoted at face value and believe them?
None of those verses you quoted speak of salvation

And I’m just quoting scriptures and asking you to believe them too, but with more scripture than you, and the words of Jesus himself, and you believe not.

None of those verses you quoted speak of salvation but these verses do.
Jesus’s is words


John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

John 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

John 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

.

And the words of john which you believe not ether


2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.


1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.


And you shore your just not making doctrine as you put it.
 
T

Therapon

Guest
None of those verses you quoted speak of salvation .
Amazing! What does election mean to you? Romans 11:28-29 says . . .

"As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your (Gentile believers) sakes: but as touching the election (God's sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

If you don't want to believe that verse, your disagreement is with the Bible states, not with me. <smile>

Peace
 
P

peterT

Guest
Amazing! What does election mean to you? Romans 11:28-29 says . . .

"As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your (Gentile believers) sakes: but as touching the election (God's sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

If you don't want to believe that verse, your disagreement is with the Bible states, not with me. <smile>

Peace

Nothing about salvation or eternal life in that verse sorry, just your interpretation of something Paul said which your interpretation cannot be right because it contradicts the rest of the gospels.


2 John 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

1 John 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

And If YOU don't want to believe all these verses, your disagreement is with the Bible states, not with me, as you put it.

You have to believe heart that God hath raised him from the dead and confess with your mouth to be saved.

Romans10:9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
10For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

You’re getting thrashed and chopped to bits here bro.

I would like to believe the Jews are saved without believing in their heart that God hath raised him from the dead and confess with their mouth. if you could just show some scripture and not just your interpretation that contradicts the rest of the gospels that would be nice

Peace
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
Amazing! What does election mean to you? Romans 11:28-29 says . . .

"As concerning the gospel, they (the Jews) are enemies for your (Gentile believers) sakes: but as touching the election (God's sovereign choice), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."

If you don't want to believe that verse, your disagreement is with the Bible states, not with me. <smile>

Peace
Horrible interpretation.

"As concerning the gospel, they (the unsaved of israel) are enemies for your (the church, jew and gentile) sakes: but as touching the election (promise), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."
 

Blain

The Word Weaver
Aug 28, 2012
19,212
2,547
113
It's scary how when ppl talk about doctrine it splits a community of christians apart. Doesn't god look at the heart? So many people have different types of doctrine, and ppl think they are correct and everyone else is wrong and needs to be corrected/ But the way i know my belief and faith is right is i seek god and i seek his heart. I focus my eyes on him not doctrine nor worry about false prophets or false teachers. Because my heart tells me what to believe in.
 
Dec 26, 2012
5,853
137
0
What does one do with this?

Acts 4

Peter and John Before the Sanhedrin

4 The priests and the captain of the temple guard and the Sadducees came up to Peter and John while they were speaking to the people. [SUP]2 [/SUP]They were greatly disturbed because the apostles were teaching the people, proclaiming in Jesus the resurrection of the dead. [SUP]3 [/SUP]They seized Peter and John and, because it was evening, they put them in jail until the next day. [SUP]4 [/SUP]But many who heard the message believed; so the number of men who believed grew to about five thousand.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]The next day the rulers, the elders and the teachers of the law met in Jerusalem. [SUP]6 [/SUP]Annas the high priest was there, and so were Caiaphas, John, Alexander and others of the high priest’s family.[SUP]7 [/SUP]They had Peter and John brought before them and began to question them: “By what power or what name did you do this?”
[SUP]8 [/SUP]Then Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit, said to them: “Rulers and elders of the people! [SUP]9 [/SUP]If we are being called to account today for an act of kindness shown to a man who was lame and are being asked how he was healed, [SUP]10 [/SUP]then know this, you and all the people of Israel: It is by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth,whom you crucified but whom God raised from the dead, that this man stands before you healed. [SUP]11 [/SUP]Jesus is

“‘the stone you builders rejected,
which has become the cornerstone.’
[SUP][a][/SUP]

[SUP]12 [/SUP]Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

[SUP]13 [/SUP]When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. [SUP]14 [/SUP]But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say. [SUP]15 [/SUP]So they ordered them to withdraw from the Sanhedrin and then conferred together.[SUP]16 [/SUP]“What are we going to do with these men?” they asked. “Everyone living in Jerusalem knows they have performed a notable sign, and we cannot deny it. [SUP]17 [/SUP]But to stop this thing from spreading any further among the people, we must warn them to speak no longer to anyone in this name.”
[SUP]18 [/SUP]Then they called them in again and commanded them not to speak or teach at all in the name of Jesus. [SUP]19 [/SUP]But Peter and John replied, “Which is right in God’s eyes: to listen to you, or to him?You be the judges! [SUP]20 [/SUP]As for us, we cannot help speaking about what we have seen and heard.”
 
T

Therapon

Guest
Horrible interpretation.

"As concerning the gospel, they (the unsaved of israel) are enemies for your (the church, jew and gentile) sakes: but as touching the election (promise), they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. For the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable."
To defend your doctrine, that is a perversion of text and context and I will have no more to do with you.
 

zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
To defend your doctrine, that is a perversion of text and context and I will have no more to do with you.
nah...you're in a lot of trouble ellis.
you really should repent.

but maybe this is the threshing floor.

your stuff is chaff.
 
E

eternally-gratefull

Guest
To defend your doctrine, that is a perversion of text and context and I will have no more to do with you.
I would be more worried about God wanting any more to do with you, then what anyone else thinks..

God said they were our enemy,, You deny this and say God will save them anyway, Enough said!
 
P

PeteWaldo

Guest
In the Bible however there is no dichotomy between heart and head. If it's right in heart it's right in head. If it's not right in head it's not right in heart.
Guffaw! Then according to your calculations a near unanimity of the body of Christ is lost forever. With half of the church having given their heads over to 17th century Roman Church Jesuit Luis Alcazar's counter-reformation invention and pop-approach to prophecy of partial preterism and the other half given over to 16th century Roman Church Jesuit Francisco Ribera's pop-approach of futurism via John Nelson Darby. Both approaches displacing the traditional historicist view through which all Jews and Christians recognize Old Testament prophecy was fulfilled, and the church understood New Testament prophecy was being fulfilled, up until the 19th century when partial preterism and futurism began to come into vogue.
http://christianchat.com/bible-disc...onal-approach-historicism-bible-prophecy.html

The stunner is that both heresies necessarily preclude a near unanimity of the body of Christ from even considering, that Muhammad could be THE false prophet. That's some use of the head eigh! Particularly when an adjacent hermeneutic renders it basically undeniable.
THE BEAST

Amazingly, both pop-heresies place nearly 2,000 years of Christian era history off-limits from even being considered as fulfillment of bible prophecy, including 1400 years of Islamic history. This even though 1.5 billion people in the world today are taught that to confess that Jesus is the Son of God or even pray in Jesus name is to commit the single most egregious and ONLY UNFORGIVABLE SIN in Muhammad's cult. As compared to child rape or cold-blooded mass murder, which may be forgiven.
UNFORGIVABLE SIN OF SHIRK

Those great men of God of the Reformation must surely be rolling over in their graves, with the same frustration I experience in Christian forums, from blindness to historicism.

Even as this same 1/4 of mankind is commanded to conquer all kingdoms and subjugate all people to DISbelieving the crucifixion of Christ and thereby REJECTING His shed blood, while DENYING the Son of God, as ARTICLES OF FAITH in the false prophet Muhammad alone. That's 1.5 billion antichrists, as a result of an article of their faith, in the false prophet Muhammad alone.
JIHAD

Commanded to subjugate everyone in the world to prostrating toward the Quraish pagan's black stone idol in Mecca five times a day, while praying in the "vain repetitions of the heathen", in the names of the Arabian pagan deity "Allah" and his "messenger" Muhammad. Even obligated to travel to that black stone idol and march around it seven times as the Arabian pagan moon, sun, star and jinn-devil worshipers did, from whom Muhammad adopted and adapted the pagan rituals only adding a thin veneer. Indeed the pagans and Muslims engaged in those pagan rituals shoulder to shoulder up until the year before Muhammad's last Hajj.
HAJJ & UMRAH

I should have qualified that the western body of Christ is stark raving blind, as our brethren being slaughtered and displaced by the millions at the hand of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast throughout the 3rd world, should be left with little doubt.

AP - December 06, 2006 MOGADISHU, Somalia - "Residents of a southern Somalia town who do not pray five times a day will be beheaded, an Islamic courts official said Wednesday, adding the edict will be implemented in three days."

nigeriacalabash.comIslamic Attacks from September 11th, 2001 through 2003

No surprise then that the truth of our 85 year old elder brother's Dan-Rev study while being vilified by western pop-heretics is popular among folks in the 3rd world, that are being slaughtered at the hands of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast.
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/61666-mark-beast-4.html#post994876

Indeed, through an ethnographic hermeneutic John's "whole world" has already having been marked by the name of the false prophet Muhammad's Islamic kingdom beast, yet the western "church" is too stark raving blind to see, and perhaps right on schedule:

2 Timothy 4:3-4 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; 4 And they shall turn away [their] ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1ead4250.png

Yet folks see fit to parade around in here passing judgment through jaundiced eyes, that spring from rotted pop-approaches to prophecy and even worse, through Roman Church styled punitive supersessionism as increasingly popularized in this 21st century, accommodating the anti-Semitism which is simultaneously on the rise again in Europe, as well as the rest of the world.
Sorely deluded folks believing they are standing up for Jesus by denigrating Jews.
Replacement Theology or Supersessionism
For others that parade around while "wise in their own conceits" insisting they have all the answers to the "mystery" described in Romans 11, and "think" it's a good idea to march around with the Roman Church denigrating Jews, I recommend you consider the testimony of Talmud thumping self-proclaimed Christian Ted Pike and see if you think he is enjoying God's protection:
Ted Pike: My Wife Died a Martyr for God and Freedom

“Hence I observe these things, first that the restauration of the Jewish nation so much spoken of by the old Prophets respects not the few Jews who were converted in the Apostles days, but the dispersed nation of the unbelieving Jews to be converted in the end when the fullness of the Gentiles shall enter, that is when the Gospel (upon the fall of Babylon) shall begin to be preached to all nations. Secondly that the prophecies of Isaiah described above by being here cited by the Apostle is limited to respect the time of the future conversion and restitution of the Jewish Nation, and thirdly that the humour which has long reigned among the Christians of boasting our selves against the Jews, and insulting over them for their not believing, is reprehended by the Apostle for high –mindedness and self-conceipt, and much more is our using them despightfully, Pharisaicall and impious” - Sir Isaac Newton

[video=youtube;ujUOZyrnewE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ujUOZyrnewE[/video]
 
Last edited by a moderator: