Total Depravity

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Jun 25, 2024
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They choose self over God. They choose the carnal flesh over God.

Two commandments of Love ....
Love God with all your heart and Love your neighbour as yourself.

If we love self more then God or self more then our neighbour, = sin.

The world is full of temptation and sin but that is not an excuse for sin.

Sin is a choice. If we had hearts like Angels and were not corrupted we would find it much easier to choose God over self. The flesh is connected with this world. The flesh vs the spirit, heaven vs this world...

Rom 13:14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

1Jn 2:15-16
15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Our flesh longs for the lusts of this world but we can choose.
Neigh again! To basically everything you have said here.

Why did you not answer whether you were here under a different name?


Well exactly. The flesh is made of dust, literally earth. Thus giving into the flesh is giving into the world as indeed that scripture which I have also posted priorly does prove. We are also born of spirit though and this is our true self and is from God. So we do not inherit sin nor a sinful predisposition, but all sin and fall short by giving into the things of the earth whether that be the flesh, whether that be the emotions, whether that be some thing or some being that is of the earth. We learn sin from the earth be it from our parents or from our fleshly desires or from some entity of the earth or from the earthly societies and so on and so forth, but we are not born sinful nor do we inherit sin from these things, but we learn them and then have a choice to either follow God or else follow the earth. Yes, all will fall short and that is true, but in terms of the topic, no, God did not make us to sin and God did not tempt us by giving us a sinful predisposition as the false doctrine of Total Depravity would have us assume, but rather we were born good and without sin but fall short on our own accord when we learn sin and decide to give into the world, and therefore our sins are our own faults, not the fault of God nor the fault of another person or thing. So then taking all scriptures in harmony together we can conclude the doctrine of Total Depravity does not hold up to the Bible and the correct option in the OP is the first option. Really now as stated before, we'll just be repeating ourselves too much then to neigh-sayers who are essentially just arguing against the Bible since the topic then is thoroughly settled and proven with the scriptures and so there is no real need to continue on with it as it is now already descending into digressions into other topics or personal accusations and interrogations which we deign to not descend into with them. A good topic though for the run it did have and the chance to open up the scriptures and so I have decided to award your OP a thumbs up.
 
Oct 29, 2023
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You saying Moses and the prophets did not offer burnt sacrifice for sin?

Where will you bring this repentance? you'll never reach God by trying to sneak around the cross.
No. I haven't said that and I am not saying that. Repentance happens in the heart. King David did not offer a burnt offering to atone for his adultery and murder, because he realised God would rather have the reality rather than the type.

Ps. 40:6 sacrifice and offering You did not desire. My ears you have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Ps. 16-17 For You do not desire sacrifice, else would I give it. You delight not in burnt offerings.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Repentance in the heart with faith in God as merciful, is enough to receive forgiveness.
 
Jul 18, 2017
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The flesh is made of dust, literally earth. Thus giving into the flesh is giving into the world as indeed that scripture which I have also posted priorly does prove.
Why are you confusing the sin nature (called "the flesh" in the NT) with the human body (dust)?

The sin nature is within "the heart" , which is a metaphor for the soul. The unregenerate person allows "the flesh" to dominate. But the Christian is told that "Sin shall NOT have dominion over you" (even though "the flesh" has not been eradicated) That is because the indwelling Holy Spirit is far greater than "the flesh".
 
Oct 29, 2023
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All good comes from God.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Jas 3:17 But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
Good fruits come from above.

None are good,
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Rom 3:9-12
9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Only God is perfectly good. Every human being other than Christ bears some corruption, which prevents us from being classified as "good". This does mean that we are only bad.

Re Rom. 3:9-12

Are we {Christians} better than the Jews? No even Christians have sinned. Does that mean there is nothing good in Christians?
 
Oct 29, 2023
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Do you think none of the verses apply to you... are you too good, too righteous?

When we see our sinful state we seek help.

Mat 9:12-13
12 But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick. 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 18:14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

Even Isaiah come to realize that his righteousness was as filthy rages

The needy receive help
But those that are well and good don't ask for help because they have no need.

Jas 1:14-15
14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Because I realize how weak and poor I am. I go to God for strength.

2Co 12:9-10
9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ's sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
None of those texts say that all men are completely corrupt and every person's deeds are filthy rags. I recognise your resort to a moralistic argument: i.e. Paul Thomson is proud because he does not admit to complete and thorough depravity. Be careful not to listen to that ungodly fellow, or I will label you proud as well. You don't want to be considered proud, do you, for acknowledging some good in yourself?
 
Jun 29, 2024
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And exactly how does this intervention occur?

You can either believe the lie that God elects some for salvation and the majority for damnation, or you can believe the Gospel truth that because God desires the salvation of all humanity, Christ has commanded the Church to preach the Gospel TO EVERY CREATURE. Those who obey the Gospel are saved. Those who reject the Gospel are not.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY makes the false claim that the unsaved are totally incapable of understanding and believing the Gospel. Therefore God gives the Holy Spirit to the unsaved "elect", and then they believe. You will not find this nonsense in Scripture. What you will find in Scripture is this:

1, First comes the preaching of the true Gospel.
2. Then comes the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.
3, Then comes either repentance and faith, or no repentance and faith.
4. Then comes justification by grace through faith.
5. Then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel..
6. Then comes the supernatural New Birth, and all that follows in the saving plan of God.
7. Then comes sanctification by the power of the indwelling Spirit.
8. Then comes glorification at the Resurrection/Rapture.
Hello,

I want to assure you that I do not believe that God chose only some to be saved and others to be lost. I firmly believe that Jesus died on the cross for all mankind, not just a select few. I hold that all people can be saved if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I also believe that mankind has free will and can choose to accept or reject Christ.
 
Jun 29, 2024
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And exactly how does this intervention occur?

You can either believe the lie that God elects some for salvation and the majority for damnation, or you can believe the Gospel truth that because God desires the salvation of all humanity, Christ has commanded the Church to preach the Gospel TO EVERY CREATURE. Those who obey the Gospel are saved. Those who reject the Gospel are not.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY makes the false claim that the unsaved are totally incapable of understanding and believing the Gospel. Therefore God gives the Holy Spirit to the unsaved "elect", and then they believe. You will not find this nonsense in Scripture. What you will find in Scripture is this:

1, First comes the preaching of the true Gospel.
2. Then comes the convicting and convincing of the Holy Spirit.
3, Then comes either repentance and faith, or no repentance and faith.
4. Then comes justification by grace through faith.
5. Then comes the gift of the Holy Spirit to those who obey the Gospel..
6. Then comes the supernatural New Birth, and all that follows in the saving plan of God.
7. Then comes sanctification by the power of the indwelling Spirit.
8. Then comes glorification at the Resurrection/Rapture.
Hello,

I want to assure you that I do not believe that God chose only some to be saved and others to be lost. I firmly believe that Jesus died on the cross for all mankind, not just a select few. I hold that all people can be saved if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I also believe that mankind has free will and can choose to accept or reject Christ.

I also pray that people would be more respectful and kind when opposing another’s point of view or whatever that view may be. While I may not be a Calvinist, I still consider them my brothers and sisters in Christ. And I apologize for any disrespect I may have shown.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
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... for generations to follow ... but you do not follow for you seem not regard Abel's blood sacrifice.
People were asking about what Total depravity ment. And if we can believe in it differently calvanists.

My research shows that there is a difference between the sinful nature and the sinful act.

We are born with a sinful nature, but the action is a choice.
Where are we told in scripture that we are born with a sinful nature? Isn't nature simply a word we use to identify a habitual way someone or something behaves?

If babies are born tabula rasa, a blank slate (in the womb Esau and Jacob had not yet done any good or evil), sinful habits are formed over time, as are their good habits. Their habits therefore become their nature, and their nature is always a mix of good and bad habits. What is nature other than habits? And how does one describe someone's nature apart from their habits? And how can one arbitrarily denote bad habits as innate, but good habits as foreign?
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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Where are we told in scripture that we are born with a sinful nature? Isn't nature simply a word we use to identify a habitual way someone or something behaves?

If babies are born tabula rasa, a blank slate (in the womb Esau and Jacob had not yet done any good or evil), sinful habits are formed over time, as are their good habits. Their habits therefore become their nature, and their nature is always a mix of good and bad habits. What is nature other than habits? And how does one describe someone's nature apart from their habits? And how can one arbitrarily denote bad habits as innate, but good habits as foreign?
we are says scripture born in sin and shapen in iniquity. We are born in the image of our father Adam who was a rebel.

... we are born dead
 

Evmur

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No. I haven't said that and I am not saying that. Repentance happens in the heart. King David did not offer a burnt offering to atone for his adultery and murder, because he realised God would rather have the reality rather than the type.

Ps. 40:6 sacrifice and offering You did not desire. My ears you have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You have not required.

Ps. 16-17 For You do not desire sacrifice, else would I give it. You delight not in burnt offerings.

The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit a broken and contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.

Repentance in the heart with faith in God as merciful, is enough to receive forgiveness.
faith in what? the only gospel we have heard is that Jesus died for sins, the Just for the unjust.

... if you reject that you are following after Cain.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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PaulThomson said:
Where are we told in scripture that we are born with a sinful nature? Isn't nature simply a word we use to identify a habitual way someone or something behaves?

we are says scripture born in sin and shapen in iniquity. We are born in the image of our father Adam who was a rebel.

... we are born dead
What does dead mean? and where are we told in scripture that we are born with a sinful nature? I was born in New Zealand, but was not born with a New Zealand nature. My New Zealandness developed through external influences as I lived immersed in the culture. Being born in sin is not the same thing as being born with sin in.
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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faith in what? the only gospel we have heard is that Jesus died for sins, the Just for the unjust.

... if you reject that you are following after Cain.
Faith in God. faith in God links us back into God. Jesus is the mediator of that linking, whether we know Him or not. The gospel gives assurance of salvation by revealing/explaining the mechanism by which God has proven His desire for reconciliation with mankind. It is the love of God that is in Christ that draws people to God, whether they have heard the name of Jesus or not. Faith in God links us to the life that is in God and revealed in the clearest possible manner in Jesus and the cross.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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Obviously, those who believe what God reveals do not need an excuse for disbelieving what God has revealed. So I agree with you on that.

k ... just wanted to clarify that when you said "all are wirhout excuse" (Rom 1:18), you were excluding the "whosoevers" who believe the gospel of Christ (Rom 1:16).




PaulThomson said:
The word used is an offering. It need not be a blood sacrifice. And Abel's faith in offering a firstling of the flock need not have been obedience to a heard command from God to offer a firstling of the flock. His offering could have been a response to something he heard from God through God's handiwork.
Interestingly enough, the wise men from the east (who were not of the children of Israel) saw something in "God's handiwork" which caused them to go to Bethlehem to seek the King of the Jews ...

Matthew 2:1-2 Now when Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judaea in the days of Herod the king, behold, there came wise men from the east to Jerusalem, Saying, Where is he that is born King of the Jews? for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him.




PaulThomson said:
The Hebrew grammar disjuncts verse three from verse four and verse four from verse five.

Hebrew narrative uses what is called waw consecutive constructions to indicate temporal order. I can't go into that here, it would take too long.
well ... you may have to "go into that here" in order for me to understand what you're saying.

It appears you're saying:

Abel brought his offering
then in process of time, Cain brought his offering
then God accepted Abel's offering but did not accept Cain's offering

or is it:

Abel brought his offering
God accepted Abel's offering
in process of time, Cain brought his offering
God did not accept Cain's offering

please clarify ... and explain why it is that Abel brought his offering before Cain even though in Scripture it appears that Cain brought his offering "and Abel, he also" ... from the way the record appears in Scripture it looks like they both offered pretty much at the same time ... thanks




PaulThomson said:
Do you have any evidence that Job and Abraham understood that Christ would die on a cross and shed His blood to bring about their resurrection?
Look at the record concerning Abraham:

Genesis 22:1-13

1 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

2 And he said, Take now thy son, thine only son Isaac, whom thou lovest, and get thee into the land of Moriah; and offer him there for a burnt offering upon one of the mountains which I will tell thee of.

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.

4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.

5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.

6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.

9 And they came to the place which God had told him of; and Abraham built an altar there, and laid the wood in order, and bound Isaac his son, and laid him on the altar upon the wood.

10 And Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son.

11 And the angel of the LORD called unto him out of heaven, and said, Abraham, Abraham: and he said, Here am I.

12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

13 And Abraham lifted up his eyes, and looked, and behold behind him a ram caught in a thicket by his horns: and Abraham went and took the ram, and offered him up for a burnt offering in the stead of his son.


vs 5 – I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you ... the verb "come" is in the plural ... meaning that Abraham believed both he and Isaac would return, even though Abraham believed Isaac was to be offered.

vs 10 – Isaac was on the altar and Abraham was going to slay him ... Abraham believed God would raise Isaac from the dead and both he and Isaac would return ...


Here are some other OT verses which corroborate the fact that OT folks believed in the resurrection:

Psalm 49:13-15 This their way is their folly: yet their posterity approve their sayings. Selah. Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in the grave from their dwelling. But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.

Isaiah 26:19-20 Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead. Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

Daniel 12:2-3 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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fact is human babies are born dead ... they have to made to breathe,
Fact is babies are not born dead unless they are still births.

They receive what they need through the placenta until they are born, and typically the baby takes its first breathe within about 10 seconds, a little gasp with typically a cry, as the baby reacts to change in its environment.
Medline Plus.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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Hello,

I want to assure you that I do not believe that God chose only some to be saved and others to be lost. I firmly believe that Jesus died on the cross for all mankind, not just a select few. I hold that all people can be saved if they accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior. I also believe that mankind has free will and can choose to accept or reject Christ.
Amen!

Good news indeed, :) there are many who will try to persuade you otherwise.

We are not born incapable of the moral ability of understanding or responding to the Truth of the Gospel message.

God does not need to change a person's heart FIRST so they cannot understand/respond to the Gospel. This automatically means God gives ability to some and not others, this is not in scripture.

The key word here is BORN.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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God does not need to change a person's heart FIRST so they cannot understand/respond to the Gospel.
True. God changes a person's heart so they CAN understand, because until then, the gospel message is foolishness.

This automatically means God gives ability to some and not others, this is not in scripture.
Does God make everyone (every single person) alive while they were dead in their sins? I do not see that in Scripture.
 
Jul 3, 2015
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This automatically means God gives ability to some and not others, this is not in scripture.
Everything we have was given to us by God. <= That is definitely in Scripture.

Scripture also explicitly states that it does not depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Why do you repeatedly deny this?
 

PaulThomson

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Oct 29, 2023
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It is an easy way to get positive response to posts in a Christian forum to post colourful and pretty postcards with Bible verses on them. No Christian is going to disagree or show disapproval of a post which consists exclusively of Bible verses. But I would respectfully suggest that you not read too much into your having an abundant treasury of positive emoji responses to your Bible verse postcards.