Transfiguration

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Ted01

Well-known member
May 14, 2022
1,055
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#41
I'll break it down...

Visions are not fictional mini-movies the Lord plays to a select crowd. They are displays of reality that insert larger truths into the earth; essentially bringing the reality of heaven to the earth.

What was seen in the transfiguration vision was that Jesus was greater than the prophets and Law. This was punctuated by God's pronouncement from heaven. Peter was there as the representative of everyone but Jesus. His intent to build three memorials and God's subsequent correction was for all of mankind to heed.
Hmm, I appreciate you taking the time to explain this all to me!
I know that I'm a little dense, and I'm thankful when people take a little extra time to help me out.

I find the subject confusing sometimes... Paul seemed unsure of things too in 2 Corinthians 12. The word "visions" in present there as well but then Paul says, "whether in the body, or out of the body, I do not know". Granted, it's a slightly different subject, but I think that when God is working miracles, it's understandable when people like me, are a bit confused about the particulars.

I do agree that a "vision" isn't a fictional, mini movie... that it is a very real part of reality... for lack of better words and for brevity in conversations, I allow the term "supernatural" to suffice despite it being a misnomer.

Anyway, the way that I see things is that this "happening" took place both in a spiritual sense but also happened in the corporeal realm as well. Jesus physically changed, Moses and Elijah were actually brought forth into the corporeal world, and Peter spoke in his own voice. It doesn't make sense to me that these things took place, solely in a vision.

Regardless, thanks again for your time.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,928
579
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#42
Heb 2v9: "But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

Luke 9v27: "Who appeared in glory, and spake of his decease which he should accomplish at Jerusalem."

Eph 4v8-10: "Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)"

Acts 2v27: "For You will not leave my soul in Hades, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption."

Luke 22v44: "And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground."

Heb 5v7: "For Jesus during his earthly life offered up prayers and entreaties, crying aloud and weeping as He pleaded with Him who was able to bring Him in safety out of death, and He was delivered from the terror from which He shrank."
The Transfiguration came about as a result of the apostles and disciples refusal to accept the truth on a "suffering Messiah", (Matt 16v21,22, Luke 9v35), according to what they had been taught by their Rabbis and believed, was that Messiah would come and throw off the Roman yoke and restore the Kingdom to Israel. Acts 1v6

So, His Father sent Moses and Elijah to appear in glory to talk about it with Him. It was not the death on the Cross that so much terrified Him, but His descent into Hades/Abyss, due to His soul being made an offering for sin (Isaiah 53v10), and so lost not only His body, but also His spirit and hence communion and presence of His Father at death. Matt 27v46,50.

[/QUOTE]
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,563
12,499
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#43
So, His Father sent Moses and Elijah to appear in glory to talk about it with Him. It was not the death on the Cross that so much terrified Him, but His descent into Hades/Abyss, due to His soul being made an offering for sin (Isaiah 53v10), and so lost not only His body, but also His spirit and hence communion and presence of His Father at death. Matt 27v46,50.
You are quite confused about Christ's descent into Hades. He went there to proclaim His victory at the cross. That is where He preached to the spirits in prison. And Christ already knew that He would be resurrected after three days and three nights. So He was definitely not "terrified" about this. He made His soul an offering for sin on the cross. His body, soul, and spirit were all a part of that one great sacrifice for sins forever.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,928
579
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#44
You are quite confused about Christ's descent into Hades. He went there to proclaim His victory at the cross. That is where He preached to the spirits in prison. And Christ already knew that He would be resurrected after three days and three nights. So He was definitely not "terrified" about this. He made His soul an offering for sin on the cross. His body, soul, and spirit were all a part of that one great sacrifice for sins forever.
Heb 5v7: "who, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications, with vehement cries and tears to Him who was able to save Him (out) from death, and was heard because of His godly fear."

Well, Scripture contradicts you on that one, He certainly was terrified regarding His descent into the Hades/Abyss!

So, I think you're the one confused, see Here
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
54,386
25,262
113
#45
Hmm, I hadn't heard that before... interesting.

If it were merely a vision though, why would Peter want to build literal tabernacles for them?
Good morning, Ted! I hope you are well today, and that this question has been satisfactorily answered for you...
I saw @Aaron56 gave a very good response to it, which I appreciate (the reminder of Jesus superseding
the law and prophets). There may have been others as well... The word used is
horama (<= link) meaning
something gazed at, i.e. a spectacle (especially supernatural):—sight, vision.


Ah, yes, Peter. LOL. Sinking in water, cutting off a centurion's ear, wanting to stop the crucifixion.
Thinking tents were needed. His passions did not always sync well with God's intentions...
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
54,386
25,262
113
#46
Elisha had to deal with a similar skepticism right after Elijah was taken to heaven. The Bible does not say Elijah died.
23 And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out
of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. KJV — 2Kings 2:23-KJV
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,563
12,499
113
#47
So, I think you're the one confused
Not really. That verse has the word "death" not Hades or the Abyss (which is not Hades either). Christ's death was on the cross, and He went triumphantly to Hades.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
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#48
The "dead" are not dead in that there is no afterlife. All the OT saints are in Heaven AND VERY MUCH ALIVE. So are the saints after the resurrection of Christ who have passed on and are now in Heaven. Moses and Elijah are very much alive and will be sent down to earth during the reign of the Antichrist. Had they not been alive they would not have been communicating with Christ regarding His "exodus" (which could include many things).
Kinda flies in the face of this...

Ecc_9:5 For the living know that they will die; But the dead know nothing, And they have no more reward, For the memory of them is forgotten.

That is why it is called the resurrection of the dead. There is an order to the resurrections...

1Co_15:23 But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming.

That is the first resurrection...

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
Rev 20:5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

The sentence "But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished." is a parenthetical thought. The first resurrection is at Christ's coming. There is a second resurrection for the rest of the dead...

But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.

This comes after the Millennium. These are those who have not had a chance yet, think about Chinese people who lived 2000 yrs before Christ and remember...

Act 4:10 let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Act 4:11 This is the 'STONE WHICH WAS REJECTED BY YOU BUILDERS, WHICH HAS BECOME THE CHIEF CORNERSTONE.'
Act 4:12 Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved."

These people never heard the name Jesus Christ.

Then there is a third resurrection...

Rev 20:13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Rev 20:15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

These are the incorrigibly wicked who will not accept Christ. They are burned up...

Death not eternal life in some place of torment. We do not have immortal souls...

Mat_10:28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

The idea of an immortal soul is a Devilish lie...

Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God said they would die. The Devil said...

Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.

What does God say?

1Ti 6:15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1Ti 6:16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.

Only God is immortal. He will give us immortality at the resurrection...

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The wages of sin is not eternity of suffering in hell fire, that is reserved for the Devil and his demons...

Mat_25:41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

Those humans cast into the Lake of Fire are burned up...

Mal 4:1 "For behold, the day is coming, Burning like an oven, And all the proud, yes, all who do wickedly will be stubble. And the day which is coming shall burn them up," Says the LORD of hosts, "That will leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But to you who fear My name The Sun of Righteousness shall arise With healing in His wings; And you shall go out And grow fat like stall-fed calves.
Mal 4:3 You shall trample the wicked, For they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet On the day that I do this," Says the LORD of hosts.

There is much to say on this topic but this is getting long and you can do your own research.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
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#49
Not really. That verse has the word "death" not Hades or the Abyss (which is not Hades either). Christ's death was on the cross, and He went triumphantly to Hades.
So He didn't really die for your and my sins? He just kind of shed His skin? I think you are mistaken here friend.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,563
12,499
113
#50
So He didn't really die for your and my sins? He just kind of shed His skin? I think you are mistaken here friend.
Another silly comment. Had you familiarized yourself with what I post on this forum, you would never have made such a silly remark.

Have you been following what was posted earlier regarding Christ being "terrified" of Hades? No He was definitely not terrified of Hades, since He had planned to be there from the start, so that He would proclaim His victory on the cross to the spirits in prison. After that He would triumphantly take all the OT saints to Heaven at His resurrection.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
23,563
12,499
113
#51
There is much to say on this topic but this is getting long and you can do your own research.
I have done my own research, and nothing you have posted here has any relevance to the matter under discussion. Just a lot of words.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
63
#52
Another silly comment. Had you familiarized yourself with what I post on this forum, you would never have made such a silly remark.

Have you been following what was posted earlier regarding Christ being "terrified" of Hades? No He was definitely not terrified of Hades, since He had planned to be there from the start, so that He would proclaim His victory on the cross to the spirits in prison. After that He would triumphantly take all the OT saints to Heaven at His resurrection.
Then He didn't really die?

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

He was put to death not preaching in Hades. So let's answer the question when he did preach to the spirits.

1Pe 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

He preached to the spirits in prison while the ark was being prepared.
 

john832

Senior Member
May 31, 2013
11,363
185
63
#53
Another silly comment. Had you familiarized yourself with what I post on this forum, you would never have made such a silly remark.

Have you been following what was posted earlier regarding Christ being "terrified" of Hades? No He was definitely not terrified of Hades, since He had planned to be there from the start, so that He would proclaim His victory on the cross to the spirits in prison. After that He would triumphantly take all the OT saints to Heaven at His resurrection.
Another comment that disagrees with scripture is that He took the saints to Heaven.

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

The 1891 Luther Bible has this...

Joh 3:13 No one ascends to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

This is supported by other plain statements by Christ...

Joh 7:34 You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come."

Joh 8:21 Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."

Not even the 12 were going to heaven...

Joh 13:33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you cannot come,' so now I say to you.

Spoken to His hand picked 12 who became the Apostles. He went on to clarify...

Joh 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

He was going to Heaven to prepare offices for the 12 and for the saints at the resurrection but He was returning to Earth to set up the Kingdom and place them in the positions He had prepared for them.

Hmmm, casting pearls again.
 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
172
48
28
#54
Then He didn't really die?

Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

He was put to death not preaching in Hades. So let's answer the question when he did preach to the spirits.

1Pe 3:19 by whom also He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
1Pe 3:20 who formerly were disobedient, when once the Divine longsuffering waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight souls, were saved through water.

He preached to the spirits in prison while the ark was being prepared.
Another comment that disagrees with scripture is that He took the saints to Heaven.

Joh 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

The 1891 Luther Bible has this...

Joh 3:13 No one ascends to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

This is supported by other plain statements by Christ...

Joh 7:34 You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come."

Joh 8:21 Then Jesus said to them again, "I am going away, and you will seek Me, and will die in your sin. Where I go you cannot come."

Not even the 12 were going to heaven...

Joh 13:33 Little children, I shall be with you a little while longer. You will seek Me; and as I said to the Jews, 'Where I am going, you cannot come,' so now I say to you.

Spoken to His hand picked 12 who became the Apostles. He went on to clarify...

Joh 14:1 "Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me.
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

He was going to Heaven to prepare offices for the 12 and for the saints at the resurrection but He was returning to Earth to set up the Kingdom and place them in the positions He had prepared for them.

Hmmm, casting pearls again.
Mat 7:6 — Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

I don't know if constructive discussion with a Christian brother should be considered casting pearl, Jesus died for each of us.
 

rrcn

Active member
Oct 15, 2023
172
48
28
#55
No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man. John 3:13
I think we both agree that the Bible can be trusted. Alone this would explain your previous statement that Elijah and Moses are dead based on John 3:13 however this conclusion ignores the context of the statement. The Bible clearly states that three people are known to already be in Heaven.
  • Enoch: Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him. Hebrews 11: 5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God. Jude 14 and 15 And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. This happened before the flood.
  • Elijah: 2 Kings 2:1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
    2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
  • Moses: Deuteronomy 34:5 So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD. The rest of the story is told in Jude 9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The next part of the story is:
Mark 9:2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus.

The statement John 3:13 was a statement to Nicodemus,
John 1:2 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
John 3: 12 I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

The context of this statement is establishing Jesus authority and the validity of His teachings. He is explaining to a ruler of the Jews, who is searching for salvation that he is uniquely qualified to teach of the kingdom of God. He alone came down from heaven and possesses the knowledge to teach about heaven. Jesus alone has seen the Father, and He alone is qualified to declare God and make him known.