Triadic Reality (a discussion between oldhermit and Kenisis)

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zone

Senior Member
Jun 13, 2010
27,214
164
63
#81
That would be another thread, and it would look a lot like Zone's and my discussion of tongues and prophecy last winter.
lol ken:)
pm me if that 'another thread' starts up.
i'm down.
zone
 

iamsoandso

Senior Member
Oct 6, 2011
7,925
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113
#82
and i am now afraid to "pm anyone",,,seeing they are having some format type problem. my pm found it's way here and i was not in a discussion with,coocaw,kenisyes,or oldhermit. ,,,have any of you reported the error to cc?,,i will cease from pm until they can correct the problem,sorry for the inconvenience.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#84
To post #80. Two additions to the problem of lnguistic valence. First, words have both denotation and connotation. Denotation is what they mean, and denotation is what they suggest. Like, my wife, my partner, my mate, my life-partner, my better half, my other half, the mother of my children. Second, no human words can ever accurately apply to God. "Is" certainly does not apply, as we know being. even "apply" does not apply to He who defines the very method by which we apply anything.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#85
and i am now afraid to "pm anyone",,,seeing they are having some format type problem. my pm found it's way here and i was not in a discussion with,coocaw,kenisyes,or oldhermit. ,,,have any of you reported the error to cc?,,i will cease from pm until they can correct the problem,sorry for the inconvenience.
1. In writing this reply, the formatting is correct. 2. It seems to have been only this one thread, and possibly only the one page. Further it was off by one post. I am responding to #82. Let's see if the quote here is correct, Iamsoandso.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#86
1. In writing this reply, the formatting is correct. 2. It seems to have been only this one thread, and possibly only the one page. Further it was off by one post. I am responding to #82. Let's see if the quote here is correct, Iamsoandso.
looks fixed now.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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#87
To post #80. Two additions to the problem of lnguistic valence. First, words have both denotation and connotation. Denotation is what they mean, and denotation is what they suggest. Like, my wife, my partner, my mate, my life-partner, my better half, my other half, the mother of my children. Second, no human words can ever accurately apply to God. "Is" certainly does not apply, as we know being. even "apply" does not apply to He who defines the very method by which we apply anything.
So you can see the inherent problems that exist in attempting to explain the concept of God within the limitations of human language. All we can hope to do is take what God has said about himself in scripture in human language and try to understand something of the nature and character of God within the framework of how the Holy Spirit uses the language.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#88
To the extent that the solution is linguistic, yes.
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#90
Whatever you are ready to post.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
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#91

I think I have posted this before but review it again as part of a bigger picture. This is the first part of triadic functionality.

GOD FUNCTIONS TRIADICLY

When we try to get our mind wrapped around the concept of a triune God that the scriptures describes as ONE GOD, we typically regard this as a paradox that is beyond the ability of the human mind to grasp or explain, so we simply accept it and move on. Over the past two centuries, four major theological theories have surfaced that have attempted to either explain the unity of one God or to refute or at least minimize the idea of triadic unity altogether. These are Monotheism (which is divided into two camps – Adoptionism and Modalism),
Unitarianism, Tritheism, and Trinitarianism. To me, these terms are quite irrelevant. I really do not care what difference or similarities may exist between these four theological theories. I am only concerned with trying to understand how the Word of God represents the triadic unity without regard to any human classifications. If I may, I would like to offer a simple explanation that I believe might help us better grasp the idea of the singularity of the triadic unity.

Music is created around the structuring of chords. A chord is a collection of notes that form a harmonic. The ‘c’ cord for example, is a triad consisting of the notes c, e, and g. Each individual note within the triad functions in a specific relationship to the others creating a pleasing sound. These are three separate and distinct notes that function within given parameters yet they are one chord. We do not have a problem understanding this concept as it relates to something as simple as music, but somehow when we think of God in these terms our minds go into melt down. This illustration is by no means without its inadequacies and limitations but it does help us to understand the viability of the oneness of unity. Divine triadic function is a harmonic. It is an arrangement of parts rooted in the nature of God.

Scripture reveals God in three hypostatic distinctions. These three distinct functions involve intelligent design, active cause, and organization. For now, I will only refer to each of these in terms of his respective position within the triadic structure. As we look at triadic functionality, we should not assign identity to any member of the triadic unity. Scripture will do this as we move along. For now, I will simply refer to each member according to his respective functional position within the triad. I use the idea of position simply to show the functional relationship that each appears to have with the others and to define the role that each has within the triadic structure. The First Position will always appear as the one who represents the idea or the planning. It is also the position of command. The Second Position will always be the avenue of communication between the two worlds as well as the causative agent. He will be the one who gives substance to the idea. He takes what is abstract (the idea) and gives it form and substance. The Third Position will always serve as the linking agent. He is the one who brings order to the work of the Second Position. He organizes the work of the Second Position so that it conforms exactly to the idea of the First Position. He shapes a finished product.


These positional functions of each appear to be exclusive. In all of my studies in scripture, I find it quite interesting that I have been unable to find a single textual example where one member of the Triadic Unity is seen operating in the function of another member. For example, we never seem to find the Third Position functioning as the active cause or the Second Position functioning as the linking agent. Each member of the triadic unity always appears to function within the parameters of his exclusive dynamic. (If anyone can show me an example in scripture to the contrary, then I stand corrected). There are places where some of these may appear to overlap but this does not change the basic parameters of positional function. This simple diagram may help to explain the idea of divine triadic structure as it relates to the function of each member of the Triadic Unity in relationship to creation.


When God told Moses that he would grant him the exclusive privilege of seeing God, the Lord told Moses “I will allow all of my
goodness to pass before you.” Goodness seems to be a collective term used to refer to all of the extended attributes that represent the character of God. All God allowed Moses to see was what was left behind after he had allowed only his extended attributes to pass by.

Question:

(The terms back and face are anthropomorphic terms for man’s benefit. Could the term “all my goodness” be used by God to represent the full spectrum of the extended properties of God? If so, would this be comparable to the hinder parts or as some have regarded it, “the lesser glory?” If so, would then “my face” represent the primary attributes that Moses was not permitted to look upon)?

We attempt to describe God as a being with a spiritual substance that encapsulates three persons. This seems to be the only way we have been able to conceptualize the idea of a triadic ONE. The Hebrew, term in Deuteronomy 6:4 defines a unique ontological quality, not a numeric essence of being.

I am not sure if there is a better word to be used here than essence, but this emphasizes my point that the nature of God cannot be understood within the
parameters of human language. The use of this term is one of our own creation. This word conveys on onelevel the idea of material existence suggesting form or shape, but this definition does not seem to be expressed in scripture. At the same time, it defines intrinsic qualities and characteristics that may have nothing to do with form, shape, or substance. It often refers to intrinsic attributes that are abstract. For example, one cannot see love. One can only see the evidence of love when it demonstrated in one's conduct. One cannot see kindness. One can only see the effects of kindness. This is how the word essence should be understood in relation to the nature of God. It is important that we do not equate essence with matter, form, or some type of spiritual equivalent to material substance. Remember, we are attempting to use human language to explain what is unexplainable this side of the eternal dimension.

There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. I suppose I am no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?

 
Jan 27, 2013
4,769
18
0
#92
There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. I suppose I am no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?
i hope this come close for the lay men and women

god g 1
jesus holy spirit short j hs 1 1
useing the equation method of the triangle used in maths or phisics. (ie working out distance,electric etc)
when all are one in the god head. then put the number 1 in each position of the god head.
(put your finger over jesus) to work the equation without jesus 1 divided by 1 = 0
(put your finger over hs) to work out the equation without the holy spirit 1 divided 1 = 0
(put your finger over god ) to work out god equation 1 x 1 = 1
then in lay man terms, is how to explain, with out the need of any papers or terms from any dr or papers that are not my own. to explain the god head. hope this helps to understand the difference between word , human. spirit
given jesus had to die, raise again, go back up to heaven, and send the hs back as a gift (ie penticost etc )
this equation method is taught in schools to this very day.


 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#93
As long as you present this as part of the method of interpretation, I have no quarrel with it. The first time, I took objection, because it sounded as though you were assuming it as a fact of life. Not everyone agrees that Scripturally, there even are three persons in God, as we went through in the thread that started this. Once you accept the triadic interpretation principle, this dovetails nicely, and will certainly help derive some powerful rules for interpretation. Like any method of interpretation of Scripture, or of any theology for that matter, there will be some who reject it. But you are clearly building a consistent system here.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
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#94
Thank you. And you are right. There are some people who will never accept the reality of the Triadic Unity no matter how well or how clearly you represent it.

Here is part two of Triadic functionality.

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
Redemption is the Work of Triadic Function.
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
The Father is the source of the idea of human redemption, Ephesians 1:1-6. He is the planner. He chose us. He predestined us.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He adopted us and he blessed us, verses three and six. Jesus is the active cause. As such, he makes human redemption a reality. He introduces redemption into the world of man, 7-12. He shed his blood. He forgave us. He bestowed his grace on us. He revealed the mystery of redemption to us. All things are summed up in him and he grants us an inheritance. The Holy Spirit is the linking agent or the organizer. He is the one who brings the redemption process to full measure. He fashions the redeemed into the divine ideal, 13-14. He sealed us as the possession of God and[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]he stands as a seal or down payment of our inheritance. In 1Corinthians 12, the Spirit equips the Church so that she may become the full realization of the idea of God.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Creation is the Result of Triadic Function[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Genesis chapter one shows us that as a triadic unity, God is the foundation of our triadic universe. Because God is triadic, everything is formed and sustained based on this divine triadic pattern. Everything we do, every action we take, and everything we relate to in this world is governed triadically. All of creation reveals the three-fold evidence of triadic structure. These are intelligent design, active cause, and organization. There must be a source of causation in the eternal realm that is able to bring its power to bear upon the world of matter to create it, organize it, and sustain it. This requires first, an intelligence that is capable of formulating ideas. Since ideas are abstracts existing initially only within the mind, they cannot be realized until they are given substantive existence. How did creation begin? It began as an idea in the mind of the First Position. Realization of the idea requires the exercise of power and will to give form to the idea. This is the actual creation of matter. This also requires power and wisdom to organize matter into an isomorphic state with the idea. Creation began in the mind of the First Position as a set of abstractions. These abstractions are relayed by command to the Second Position who brings his will to bear upon these ideas. By the exercise of power, he brings matter into existence, Colossians 1:16-17, Hebrews 1:10, and John 1:3. The Third Position functions as the indexical agent. He brings both worlds together into a single reality. The Third Position brings order to the universe. He operates in the universe organizing the matter that was created by the Second Position so that it conforms precisely to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the idea of the First Position. In the creation account, he establishes continuity between the celestial bodies to keep them in a state of mutual synchronization. He establishes boundaries for the heavens and the earth. He creates a symbiotic relationship between the earth and all living creatures. He then sets in motion a system of temporal measurements to govern the seasons. He then appoints man as the representational figure of God to govern the natural world. Now, man must stand in the indexical position of a different triad and learn how to link his material existence in the world to the will and power of the Creator. He must rule over that which God had made according to the design of divine will. [/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Creation Event[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]In Genesis 1:1, the writer introduces us to God. God is presented to us in the Hebrew as the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Elohim. Elohim [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is the plural form of the noun [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]El [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]that we translate as God. From the beginning then, we learn that creation is the joint effort of triadic unity each operating within their own dynamic function. Notice how this is portrayed in each creative event.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]1. The creation of the heavens and the earth [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. What we are seeing here is the formation of the periodic table. Matter is brought into [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]existence. This is Second Position function forcing the idea into material form. The state of th[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]e earth at this point is shapeless, empty, dark, and aquatic. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b.“[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The Spirit of God moved or brooded over the face of the waters[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is Third Position [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]function. ([/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]waters here seem to represent an embryonic shroud. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]We are [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]not told here exactly what[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]it is that the Spirit of God is doing to the earth. What we are told [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]is that the Spirit is the one who is preforming the function. The result of this function [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]appears to be a place that is suited to the needs of all the life forms that are about to be [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]placed upon it.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
2. The creation of light, 3-5
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let there be light[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is a relay of idea in the form of command. This is First [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Position function. Since a command is given, there must of necessity, be a recipient. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Someone must function to execute the command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And there was light[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” The idea is given material form. Execution of [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]command is Second [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Position function.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. Light is then organized and assigned specific function. Organization is Third Position [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]function. He separates it from the darkness,[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]names it and assigns it as a temporal indicator, [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]i.e. evening and morning is designating the first day.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
3. The creation of the expanse, 6-8
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let there be an expanse in the midst of the waters[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is First[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Position [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]function of idea/command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And God made the expanse,[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” This is Second Position function of active cause. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]The idea is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]acted upon and[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]given material form.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. It was then separated and named. This is Third Position function of organization. [/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
4. The separation of the waters from the land, 9-10
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let the waters be gathered into one place and let the dry land appear[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]First Position function of command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]It was so[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],” This is Second Position function. The idea is forced onto the [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]world of matter [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and matter responds.
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. Function is assigned. This is Third Position function of organization. Dry land is called [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]earth and the gathering of waters he calls seas.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
5. The formation of botanical life, 11-13
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let the earth sprout vegetation[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is First Position function of command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And it was so[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” Second Position function again gives form to the idea.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. Organization is assigned. This is Third Position function. It is to produce fruit[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]after [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]its kind.[/FONT]

[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]6. The formation of the celestial bodies, 14-19[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let there be lights in the expanse[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is First Position function of command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And it was so[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” Celestial light is formed. This is Second Position function of active cause.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. They are organized and assigned to function. This is Third Position function. He separated [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]day and night. He appointed them to serve as temporal and seasonal indicators and to give [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]light upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
7. The formation of marine and avian life, 20-22
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let the waters team with swarms of living creatures and let birds [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]fly above the[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]earth[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is First Position function of command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And God created[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif],” This is Second Position function of active cause.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And God blessed them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is Third Position function of organization. He assigns [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]function.
He commands them to be fruitful, to multiply
[/FONT], [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and to fill the[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]waters. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]commands the birds to multiply upon the earth.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
8. The creation of land based creatures, 24-25
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let the earth bring forth living creatures[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” Again, this is First Position function [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]of command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And it was so[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” Second Position function of active cause - He made it [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]happen.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. Organized after their kind - This is Third Position function.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]
9. The creation of man, 26-30
[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]a. God said, “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” The[/FONT] [FONT=Times New Roman, serif]First Position [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]gives instruction as to the kind of being man is to be.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]b. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]And [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God created man in his own image[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]” This is Second Position function of active cause. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]He carries out the command.[/FONT]
[FONT=Times New Roman, serif]c. “[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God blessed them[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif].” This is Third Position function of organization. He commands man to [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]be fruitful, to multiply, to fill the earth, to subdue it (bring it under control), to cultivate it [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]and rule over everything that God had made. [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]God saw that all that he had made was very [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]good. Triadic unity then becomes the pattern for the creation and formation of everything in [/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, serif]the natural dimension.[/FONT]
 
K

kenisyes

Guest
#95
One can always assign the three step procedure to any creativity I suppose. The key here is that each position is mentioned in each day of creation. (NOt just that it can be, but it is pointed out that it has been.) I see no attempt yet to try to equate the positions 1: Father 2. Jesus 3. Holy Spirit or 1. spirit 2. soul 3. body. I do not believe it will work in the passage outlined.
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
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Alabama
#96
That was what I meant to convey. In looking through the O.T, all we see is first, second, and third position function. The only Person of the Triad who is mentioned by name is the Spirit. At this point we have no latitude to assign designations to the other members of the unity. We will not learn this until scripture reveals it to us in the N.T.
 
Jan 27, 2013
4,769
18
0
#97
There have been many attempts to create models to help us understand the unity of ‘One’ God. I suppose I am no different in this regard. However, we must acknowledge the fact that it is impossible to create a definitive model of something we cannot see. How does one reduce God to a diagram on a piece of paper?
i hope this come close for the lay men and women

god g 1
jesus holy spirit short j hs 1 1
useing the equation method of the triangle used in maths or phisics. (ie working out distance,electric etc)
when all are one in the god head. then put the number 1 in each position of the god head.
(put your finger over jesus) to work the equation without jesus 1 divided by 1 = 0
(put your finger over hs) to work out the equation without the holy spirit 1 divided 1 = 0
(put your finger over god ) to work out god equation 1 x 1 = 1
then in lay man terms, is how to explain, with out the need of any papers or terms from any dr or papers that are not my own. to explain the god head. hope this helps to understand the difference between word , human. spirit
given jesus had to die, raise again, go back up to heaven, and send the hs back as a gift (ie penticost etc )
this equation method is taught in schools to this very day.


o, good, no one as noticed, 1 divided 1 = 1
or 1- 1 =0

0r 1+1+1= 3

sorry, royal tip toes back out of forum, covering the brighter shade of red that his face was last night , when the voice told him 1 divided 1 =1 lol
 

oldhermit

Senior Member
Jul 28, 2012
9,144
613
113
70
Alabama
#98
THE RELATIONSHIP OF MAN TO THE DIVINE TRIAD
The Uniqueness of Man


As we develop a representational understanding of the nature of God, it is important that
we learn to understand man in the same way. The Psalmist describes man as the crowning creation of God, designed exclusively for fellowship with the Creator, Psalms 8:48.

Above everything in creation, man stands as a unique figure among all of God’s creative handiwork. Of all the creatures God has formed, only man is fashioned in the image of his Creator. No other creature commands the attention of God as man. Man so dominates God’s desire for fellowship that nothing has been held back in response to man’s need for spiritual compatibility with his Maker. Yet, of everything in the natural realm, only man rebels against his Maker. Everything in creation functions precisely as God intended, faithfully performing the functions to which they have been assigned. Man, who is God’s crowning creation, is the only creature who seeks his own agenda outside the will of God.

God himself is the blueprint for humanity. This follows a creation principal. Every living thing was charged to bear fruit “
after
its own kind
.” In man, God has produced after his own kind. God created man as an extension of himself, a creature that was like him, created in His image. Just how is man in the image of God? What is there about man that bears the likeness of his Creator? Like his Maker, man possesses the same intrinsic qualities that define the nature and character of God, yet limited in degree. Man was created as a holy and righteous being. He was created as an eternal being endowed with wisdom. He was created with the capacity to love, to dispense mercy, kindness, goodness, compassion, and justice. Man was given transcendence – he was placed over all God’s creation to ruler over it. This is what defines man as one created in the image and likeness of God. As such, man is the closest thing to God that exists in creation.


THE TREES OF LIFE AND KNOWLEDGE
How do these two trees help us to understand the triadic nature of reality?

As we move from creation to the garden there develops an emerging discontinuity between man and his association with forbidden things. When man is unconstrained by revelation, he quite naturally draws conclusions based upon how he relates to the world around him. Man allows what he experiences to influence how he defines what is relevant. Once man learns to link the natural to the eternal, he learns to represent human events in quite a different way. One cannot build a triadic picture of reality based upon experiential logic. Human rationalization operating on its own cannot properly context the relationship of man to the natural world. Building a triadic picture of reality is only possible when one learns to represent human experience in the light of revelation. To do this, one must allow revelation to transcend experiential logic.


There is an example of triadic structure that demonstrates how the natural world and the supernatural world relate to one another in the eternal continuum. At the beginning of man’s history in the garden, the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil were mentioned in the context of man’s relationship both to God and to the natural world. The text never seems to indicate that in the beginning there was any prohibition to the tree of life but that man was only denied access to the tree of knowledge. It was not until after the fall of man that God placed an angel with a flaming sword at the east of the garden to prohibit man’s access to the tree of life. The way in which Adam chose to represent these trees would reflect his understanding of his association with both God and the natural world. As the narrative unfolds, it becomes clear that access to the tree of life was predicated upon man’s observance of the divine prohibition of the other. Man was to have absolutely no contact with the tree of knowledge. God had provided every tree of the garden for man’s use and pleasure, but this tree was to be left strictly alone. These two trees stand as symbols of a world beyond man’s sensory existence. The tree of forbidden knowledge represents the holiness, the superiority, and the sovereignty of God. It suggests that God always reserves unto Himself the things that belong exclusively to him. It is not merely the tree that has exclusivity, but what that tree represents. As a whole, man is never content to abide by prohibitions. Here, he desires the one thing he is denied. How characteristic this has proven to be of human nature!

Although man was given the highest place of honor as the crowning creation of God and dominion over all creation, this tree was a reminder that even man is not God. Man must stand in the index position of this triad and link the tree of knowledge that he can see to the will of God whom he cannot see. He must also link this tree to revealed consequences that he cannot see and has never before experienced. For man to properly relate to both worlds he must learn to link the eternal world to his world by bringing God’s warning to bear upon his relationship to this tree. He must learn how to define the nature of his relationship to this tree based on what God had told him about it. Now, this epistemology did not just apply to this tree but extended to everything in man’s dominion. He must understand his relationship to all of his domain based upon this triadic epistemology. God had already defined his function in creation and man must relate to his world according to the words of the Lord.

From the beginning, man was confronted with a decision in his association with this icon of good and evil. This tree was a symbol of an unseen reality. T
here is a particular type of knowledge man was not equipped to handle and should not seek to obtain. The accessibility of the tree shows that man was given the ability to obtain this knowledge. The prohibition laid down by God says that this knowledge is destructive to man. This reinforces man’s position as a subordinate creature to what is unseen. God had said, “From this tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you shalt not eat of it; for in the day that you eat from it, you shall surely die.” Here is a divine standard given to instruct man on how to think when he considers this tree. Since God has decreed that punishment will follow disobedience, the validity of God’s word is upheld. Divine judgment preserves divine justice because it is through the exercise of justice that God protects his holiness. Observance of this revelation becomes a matter of life and death. The ethics were simple; God said, “Don’t touch it.” This did not require a human analysis of ethics to decide what might be the right thing to do. Contact with the tree was evil both because God said it was evil, and because of what man would suffer as a result.

We know, because of how this tree is interpreted by the physical senses in the text that man, left on his own, could not arrive at this conclusion. Adam could not see what the tree represented. He could only see the physical dynamics of the tree. For the rest, he must rely upon what God had told him about the tree. Man requires instruction from God to protect him from that which he has no point of reference to understand. As the Creator, God understood things about the nature of man and his relationship to his environment that man did not know and was not created to know. Man was not endowed with the capacity to distinguish between good knowledge and evil knowledge. This truth has not changed. The knowledge provided by this tree was not a necessary component for man to fulfill his role within his assigned environment.

The environment of the garden supplied every conceivable human need. He was even given access to the tree of life. The garden was a secure environment where man had no experience with fear, shame, and disgrace. These were yet unknown elements. It was an aesthetic environment where God controlled access to knowledge. There were certain things that man knew by design, but the prohibition of the tree says that
there were those things which man should never want to know or seek to know.

In the garden, man enjoyed the presence of God and the full awareness of God. God knew that through disobedience man would be exiled from this controlled and protected environment and from his fellowship with God. By violating God’s prohibition, man challenged the sovereignty of God. Man does not have the authority to mandate a standard of moral conduct. The text of Genesis shows us that this level of knowledge belongs exclusively to God. Because man chose to behave sinfully, he is now confronted with a new reality. Adam is now aware of a particular type of knowledge that will forever change the way mankind represents the relationship he has with the natural world and with his God. It also laid a foundation by which humanity would forever be forced to choose between these two epistemologies. Should we represent reality based on revelation from God or should we rely on those things learned from pragmatic experiences? Which one will we depend upon to tell us the truth about what is relevant?

Now, man has access to the knowledge of good and evil. This presents two problems: First, man does not know the difference between good and evil and secondly, history shows us that when man is left to his own, he will more often than not choose the evil to his own destruction, even when revelation is present. In Genesis 6:5, we see that by the time Noah comes on the scene, “
every imagination of the thoughts of the heart is only evil continually,” (RSV). The fact that revelation was available to that generation is evident in the character of Noah. God regarded Noah as “righteous in his generation.” Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints. This deterioration of a divinely established ethic shows a complete reversal of a revealed epistemology. This is what happens when the mind of man becomes isolated from the revelation of God. This isolation was willful, deliberate, and fatal. When man is left to himself without a desire for revealed knowledge, he is characteristically self-destructive. If man is to survive spiritually in a cursed environment, it will require a standard that will enable him to represent properly his assigned place within creation.

When Satan approached Eve in the garden, he confronts her about the tree of knowledge. Eve rehearsed the commandment that God had given to them about this tree saying, “from the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, but of the tree that is in the midst of the garden you may not eat from it or touch it lest you die.” This represents a revealed language structure about certain truths concerning this tree that she could not know any other way. Satan then introduced a new way of thinking about what is true. He portrays this revealed grammar as unreliable and not to be trusted. “You shall not surely die for God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be opened and you will be like God knowing good and evil.” The idea obviously appealed to Eve but the force of the temptation was more than just a desire to be like God. This new way of representing truth offered a means by which control could be shifted from God to man.

She relies upon an unrevealed method for making decisions. Rather than consulting God and relying upon revelation which, by her own admission she understood, she relies instead upon her five senses operating in this natural world to formulate her epistemological base. She “rationalizes” why it would be acceptable to eat that which had been forbidden. This reveals a distorted ethic in the misappropriation of things that
belong to God. She contemplated stealing that which belongs to God and then attempted to justify the rightness of it in her own mind.

The serpent's temptation was two-fold based upon the decision matrix of the woman. This would imply that Satan understood something of the psychology of the woman and he capitalizes on her naiveté. Experientially, Eve knows nothing of Satan, temptation, evil, craftiness, the pain of disobedience, or death. The serpent creates doubt in her mind about the motives, character, and purpose of God. He accused God of lying and planted the seed of evil ambition. “God knows that in the day you eat of it you will become like God.” The reality was that she was already like God. He creates suspicion in the mind of the woman by implying that God is deliberately withholding something from her that is both desirable and beneficial. It implies that, 1) man is just as good as God is, 2) God is unjust in this prohibition, and 3) man has the right to be God. This is a challenge of God’s sovereignty. At the heart of this, is the question of who has the right to be in control? Who has the right to decide what is best for man? A worldly epistemology says that man has the wisdom to decide what is best for him. A revealed epistemology says that God not only knows what is best he is also able to supply it.

The serpent then makes an appeal to the empirical and aesthetic observation. Eve saw that the fruit was good for food and was pleasing to the eye. He also appeals to the subjective impulse; it was desirable to make one wise, which the text defines as knowing good from evil. Where then was the sin? The sin was allowing human logic and rationalization to overrule the revelation of God. This is a propensity of humanly derived standards of ethics. The decision was made by appealing to an uninspired epistemology rather than to the words of the Lord. Human logic and rationalization are not valid determinants for deciding what is right or wrong. God said, “
Don’t touch it.” This alone determines what is right or wrong.
 
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kenisyes

Guest
#99
I agree with the argument overall, but there are two fine points:

As your own quote says, God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree. It was Eve's statement to the serpent that God said not to touch it. There is no record of God telling Adam not to touch it. In fact, gen. 2:5 hints that maybe man could and should touch it, as part of his garden-tending assignment.

Secondly, is the quote "Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints." This does not show that righteousness requires the submission to divine constraints. Righteousness could come in some other way. In fact "righteous in his generation" may just imply a relative term. Compared to thost who follow Jesus today, Noah might have hardly been "righteous" at all. Unless we can prove that, we may have to go a different direction using Noah as an example.
 

oldhermit

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Jul 28, 2012
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=kenisyes;1168965]I agree with the argument overall, but there are two fine points:
As your own quote says, God told Adam not to eat the fruit of the tree. It was Eve's statement to the serpent that God said not to touch it. There is no record of God telling Adam not to touch it. In fact, gen. 2:5 hints that maybe man could and should touch it, as part of his garden-tending assignment.
The fact that we do not have the "don't touch" prohibition recorded does not invalidate Eve's claim that God had told them this. In the first place, the Serpent does not dispute her claim. He knew what they had been told.
Secondly, we have a number of examples of statements and events that are revealed after the fact which were not recorded at the time of the event. For example: In Gen. 48:22 Jacob give Joseph the piece of land which he says he took from the hand of the Amorite with his sword and his bow. He know that this parcel of land was that which he purchased in Shechum. Yet, we have no record of that event. In Acts 20 35, Paul said, "In everything I showed you that by working hard in this manner you must help the weak and remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He Himself said, 'It is more blessed to give than to receive."
Yet, there is no record in the gospels or anywhere beyond this passage that Jesus ever made this statement. Yet, we know he did because Paul records it through inspiration.

Secondly, is the quote "Righteousness is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints." This does not show that righteousness requires the submission to divine constraints. Righteousness could come in some other way. In fact "righteous in his generation" may just imply a relative term. Compared to those who follow Jesus today, Noah might have hardly been "righteous" at all. Unless we can prove that, we may have to go a different direction using Noah as an example.
Righteous is not regarded as a relative term. That generation is not the standard by which righteousness is defined. In 2Peter 2:5, Noah is not represented as simply righteous but as a preacher of righteousness and in Hebrews 11 he is called a man of faith. The only way righteousness is preserved anywhere we find it in scripture is the result of submitting one’s self to revealed constraints.