What do you believe and why do you believe it?

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U

UnderGrace

Guest
Validated how and by whom? I thought you Christians did not accept standards from people?
I guess that is a problem for you then not believers... I will be waiting.
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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Quite a warped view of God . . . First premise is wrong - He is not just an "invisible man" - and it gets just worse from there . . .

All you give by quoting George Carlin's statement is the natural result of human thinking trying to understand God - quite a mess indeed!
The point is that Hellfire and Damnation is not an act of love. Love may fail to draw you for a while but it never rejects completely. Your God is like someone holding a gun to my head shouting "Don't make me shoot you!"
If God pulls the trigger and puts a bullet between my eyes, you cannot say I committed suicide.
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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I guess that is a problem for you then not believers... I will be waiting.
You can wait all you want but it doesn't change anything. Meanwhile, I'll eat my tasty medium-rare steak , which I prophecied would arrive.
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
You can wait all you want but it doesn't change anything. Meanwhile, I'll eat my tasty medium-rare steak , which I prophecied would arrive.
Enjoy!!
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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The point is that Hellfire and Damnation is not an act of love. Love may fail to draw you for a while but it never rejects completely. Your God is like someone holding a gun to my head shouting "Don't make me shoot you!"
If God pulls the trigger and puts a bullet between my eyes, you cannot say I committed suicide.
God loves you -
in fact, sir,
He has given His life for you . . .
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
363
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Hmmm -- seems you are using your starting point ("thinking entity" and "logic") to try to make my starting point look foolish?

Again, you may do that -- that is your prerogative . . . but it does not prove anything at all . . .

I, as I said before, reject your starting point as having no basis at all - thinking and logic did not suddenly appear out of nowhere as a "starting point"!
The reason the laws of logic may be taken as axiomatic, is that they are self-proving. In other words, you need the law of identity to be true to argue that the law of identity is false. This is the justification for accepting them without additional justification. They therefore need no cause. This is because the contrary position is impossible. If I believed that I didn’t exist, this statement assumes my very existence. Denying the laws of logic automatically pre-supposes them. If I were to say that “The law of identity is false” this by necessity uses said law. Denying the laws of logic is self-refuting. The Presuppositionalist Christian seems to not think this is sufficient unto itself and instead wants them to be “accounted for” whatever that really means.​
Reasoning is not a linear process that has come from nowhere. It is an emergent process that results from experience and reflection.
Science works due to post-axiomatic justification. You might then say "What about the pre-axiomatic justification?" The edge of the rabbit hole is starting to look a bit precarious.

It would have been helpful for the Bible to contain some tutorials in basic logic and epistemology don't you think?
 
U

UnderGrace

Guest
It tastes all the sweeter because I magically predicted it!
I really do not like my steak sweet.

Still waiting for an answer on this though.....

Please provide a rational compelling reason for you to be ethical and what is your point of reference?
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
363
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I really do not like my steak sweet.

Still waiting for an answer on this though.....

Please provide a rational compelling reason for you to be ethical and what is your point of reference?
My Post 87 was an early version:

"I agree with you that the starting point for morality is arbitrary but "maximising people's emotional and physical wellbeing" is a standard in of itself and it can be measured by the Social Sciences. There is an optimum wellbeing that can be reached. I think people know this deep down. The assumptions are that pleasure is preferable to pain, health is preferable to illness, life is preferable to death, freedom is preferable to incarceration, etc. Do you think these are good assumptions for a thriving, healthy, co-operative society for our children to grow up in?
You believe you have THE MORAL STANDARD but how did you decide that was the right one? More importantly, do you consider slavery and genocide to be moral or not?"
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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I originally posted this message in the New Member Intro section but a member said I should post it here. So here goes...

Colloquially speaking I am an agnostic as I don't know whether or not a god exists. Technically I am an atheist as I don't believe any god claim I have heard. Although I used to be a Christian. I was brought up in the Church of England but properly self-identified as a Christian in my twenties and believed I was saved. I had my doubts after several months as a result of speaking to atheists and ex-Christians. Some things in the Bible stopped making sense to me. Some of the Bible was immoral, some of it was inconsistent and some of it was not credible. I prayed for answers but no answers came. I now consider myself to be an ex-Christian. Every so often I like to challenge my beliefs as I think it is healthy. In that spirit I would like to ask all Christians here what do you believe and why do you believe it?
In reading this I see some good news and some bad news. The good news is you are still among the land of the living which means therefore choices are still your inherent right so choose wisely. Now your bad news. There is no such person as an atheist (Her: 8) all know there is a God , again Her 8, question is will you bow to Him or not? Again choose wisely.
 

Victor1999

Active member
Jul 8, 2019
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What do you mean by "His words are near the heart"? How do you know God is the good guy and Satan the wicked one? At the end of the day you are necessarily imposing some of your self onto all of this.
You keep playing logic games with us. Even if for some reason you believed that Satan is good, it was God's Word the Holy Bible that told you about satan in the first place, meaning that God also exists. And if he exists then the Bible testifies to His Goodness. Who does the devil want to nail to a cross? You or himself? But God would rather experience this suffering himself so you don't have to. But the devil, being himself, wants this holy sacrifice to be of no effect on you, so you will suffer anyway. However smart you think your are, the devil is always smarter. Only God is smarter than the devil, so only God can save. It is the devil's game to confuse you with complex logic so you won't see the truth from God.
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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The largest misconception I think many people have is than going to or joining a church determines if they some way defines them as being a christian, (small 'c'.) Becoming a Christian is different altogether it is a metamorphic change of heart and attitude. A person does not become an athlete by watching or going to games. Becoming a Christian, (pro-noun, capitol 'C') takes desire, determination and faith. Faith that Christ died for our shortcomings and the determination that we want join his team. Learn his ways and the desire to become more pleasing to him.

We are likened to his bride. We must fall in love with him. Choosing sin rather than staying true to desire to please him is like committing adultery and he is a jealous God! The bible says so many times but he loves us so much he continually takes us back in spite of our temporary unfaithfulness. This should bolster our love and commitment to him. Not weaken it.

We should not take him for granted either. Jesus IS, not was; The Living Word of God. He allowed himself to die for us. I prayed for enlightenment from the Holy Spirit and what I received changed my life. It was better than winning some sort of super sweepstakes and in love with him an a non carnal way. None of my accomplishment's or losses will ever change that. Pray for yourself, Fall away like a seed and take root in God's fertile ground. Allow yourself to be watered and nourished and you will grow!
 

PERFECTION

Active member
Aug 14, 2019
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When I was a young man, in a time long ago, I was a member of a Baptist. It was a small church with a pastor who loved people.
I still think about him often after 50 years, anyway, has was the tradition, he gave an alter call at the end of every service. It was during this time, as result of issues I thought had no remedy , conviction emerged and I realized that my life was really undone. Because I was indoctrinated in the baptist beliefs my response was to go to the alter when the invention was given. Down at the alter the pastor prayed and told me to have courage. This was a morning service that night I was back to the alter again. The next Sunday the same thing. Time and again week after week until it was causing an embarrassment for everyone. Finally the pastor informed me he did not know what I was searching for but it was beyond him to provide the answer. Eventually I did received my answer. The point here is that going to an "alter" because you believe its the answer will accomplish nothing. In the end it must be a personal response to the voice of the Holy Spirit and yes He does have a real voice and you will never misunderstand what it is saying and yes once you hear it you will ALWAYS WANT TO HEAR MORE.
 
Mar 23, 2016
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My final inconsistency challenge to you. "The Easter Challenge" Using all the information in the Gospel accounts (and without omitting any information) please produce a narrative that makes sense for the events surrounding the Resurrection. A summary of the information is below
Rather than focus on what you perceive are discrepancies in the narrative, why don't you focus on what is consistent …

All four gospels indicate the Lord Jesus Christ was resurrected from the dead.

All four gospels indicate the Lord Jesus Christ appeared in His resurrected body.


I could take the time and go through the records and remark on your perceived "inconsistencies". Would you then believe? Or would you further harden your heart and find some other "inconsistency" which would cause you to continue on your path away from God?

just asking because I took the time to show you there was no inconsistency in the field of blood issue and you now agree there were two purchases ... not that you have come to faith in God, you just "would not use that example in future to demonstrate a Biblical inconsistency".

I took the time to show you there was no inconsistency between Matthew/Mark "six days" and Luke "about eight days" and you're still "Not really convinced that there's no inconsistency" ... even to the point of stating "The God of the Bible comes across as inept and bungling sometimes”.

You need to figure out what you want out of this life. Do you want to continue to deny the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein or do you want to turn to the Creator of the heavens and the earth and all that is therein and start on the path where He will personally reveal Himself to you? You will never be disappointed in your walk with God. It's not all smooth sailing. There will be times of calm and peace and there are rough patches you'll go through — times where you will disappoint yourself and/or others will disappoint you ... but one thing's for sure ... it won't be God Who disappoints you.



In your OP, you indicated "I like to challenge my beliefs" .

Is it your intent to turn TO God and seek Him?

Is it your intent to turn others FROM God?

again ... just askin' ...



 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
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I'm sorry I haven't got round to responding individually today. The next week I will have limited time to respond and the week after that I will be out if the country with probably no internet access for some time. I bet your Admins are breathing a sigh of relief at that Good News. I should be able to respond individually at some point next week but it may be a good idea for you to post only pressing questions or requests of clarification from now on.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
3,876
1,172
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I'm sorry I haven't got round to responding individually today. The next week I will have limited time to respond and the week after that I will be out if the country with probably no internet access for some time. I bet your Admins are breathing a sigh of relief at that Good News. I should be able to respond individually at some point next week but it may be a good idea for you to post only pressing questions or requests of clarification from now on.
No one here is scared of you! Your arguments eventually begin to sound rather hollow and monotonous. The administrators here know very well what the Good News is: and it is not that you are going to be too busy to answer for the next week.
 

Deade

Called of God
Dec 17, 2017
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Vinita, Oklahoma, USA
yeshuaofisrael.org
"Religion has convinced people that there's an invisible man ... living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn't want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money." George Carlin
You have just described most people’s understanding of God. I am quite content in that many do not believe in the true God, creator/owner of the whole earth and all its contents. God is simply not dealing with some people yet. He will deal with everyone in His time. You too.

It is not our job to evangelize the world. Scripture says the Gospel is to be preached throughout the world as a witness: Matt. 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” A witness can be for you or against you.

God is not the Great speed cop in the sky, ready to swat you for your sins. When saved He will not even remember our sins: Isaiah 1:18 “Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.”

My final inconsistency challenge to you. "The Easter Challenge" Using all the information in the Gospel accounts (and without omitting any information) please produce a narrative that makes sense for the events surrounding the Resurrection. A summary of the information is below:

Matthew - Mary Magdalene and the other Mary present. 1 angel. Earthquake occurs and stone rolls out of the way.
Read this carefully, and tell me if the stone could have already been rolled back: Matt. 28:2 “And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.” One Angel was sitting on it at a later time, and the other angel not mentioned.

Luke - 2 Marys, Joanna and other women. 2 men in white garments. Stone already moved out of the way.
No earthquake described.
Luke 24:4 “And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:” There are your two angels, earthquake not mentioned.

John - Mary was present who then fetched Simon Peter. 2 angels. Stone already moved out of the way. No earthquake described.
John 20:1 “The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, when it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone taken away from the sepulchre.” Only one Mary mentioned, earthquake not mentioned; common in third person narrative. Where is the problem?

The point is that Hellfire and Damnation is not an act of love. Love may fail to draw you for a while but it never rejects completely. Your God is like someone holding a gun to my head shouting "Don't make me shoot you!"
If God pulls the trigger and puts a bullet between my eyes, you cannot say I committed suicide.
He does love us, but our sin will kill us. Nobody will live in flames forever. The hell you are describing is a middle-age myth. The wages of sin is death (see Romans 6:23). The soul that sins, will die: Eze. 18:20a “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” The everlasting life in flames will not happen to anybody/anything. Hint: Think memorials. :cool:
 

Spectrox

Active member
Jul 25, 2019
363
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Your standard is man not from an objective source outside of man .... so which man is the measure of well being?
How do you know the Bible was written by an objective source outside of man? Provide your most compelling reason.